:00:12. > :00:17.Now it is time for hard talk. From Hardtalk has come to Dublin - the
:00:17. > :00:23.capital of Ireland, which holds the presidency of the European Union.
:00:24. > :00:28.It is a symbolic leadership role which coincides with the attempts
:00:28. > :00:38.to escape from the economic straitjacket imposed by the EU and
:00:38. > :00:43.
:00:43. > :00:52.the IMF when they agreed to bail out the Irish economy. My guest is
:00:52. > :01:00.Lucinda Craighto. -- Craighton.
:01:00. > :01:06.Are they convincing the world they are bouncing back?
:01:06. > :01:11.Welcome to Hardtalk. Let's start by talking about the enormous debt
:01:11. > :01:15.mountain which has almost crushed the Irish state N the last few days
:01:15. > :01:21.your Government has trumpeted a deal which has remortgaged a huge
:01:21. > :01:26.chunk of that debt. It seems, in a way, a symbol of how deep the
:01:26. > :01:30.crisis is in this country that that is the greatest triumph of your
:01:30. > :01:34.Government, that you have remortgaged some debt. We are not
:01:34. > :01:38.mid-way through the term in office. I hope by the end of our
:01:38. > :01:44.Government's term that we will have achieved more than reducing the
:01:44. > :01:50.debt burden. It is important. We have, I suppose a mead unanimous-
:01:50. > :01:55.term strategy. One part -- medium- term strategy. One part has been
:01:55. > :02:00.achieved. The next step is getting back to the markets and being able
:02:00. > :02:04.to borrow money at a reasonable, sustainable rate so we can fund our
:02:04. > :02:11.public services and so on and run our Government. That deadline, I
:02:11. > :02:17.suppose is fast approaching. Ensuring we have managed the debt
:02:17. > :02:23.burden is an important part of that taskment. Although this concerns
:02:23. > :02:28.the 30 billion euros of the collapse of the Anglo Irish Bank
:02:29. > :02:37.and nationwide, that money has to be paid back. It doesn't mean you
:02:37. > :02:47.have solved the other banking debt, which is tens and tens of billions
:02:47. > :02:53.We were the first country standing against what was pretty much a
:02:53. > :02:57.tsunami in the banking world, which was about to hit the European Union,
:02:57. > :03:03.particularly the eurozone. Ireland was the first country, if you like,
:03:03. > :03:07.in the line of fire. We definitely took a disproportionate hit. Even
:03:07. > :03:11.when you and other members of the Government were saying this was a
:03:11. > :03:18.great result for Ireland, we had thousands taking to the streets in
:03:18. > :03:22.Dublin and elsewhere, led by the trade union movement saying nothing
:03:22. > :03:27.has changed. Still the Irish people are paying vast amounts of money
:03:27. > :03:32.and suffering prolonged austerity because of the mistakes made and
:03:32. > :03:37.the incompetence of the leaders of the banking system in this country
:03:37. > :03:41.and politicians and Europeans who refuse to be fair to the Irish
:03:41. > :03:47.public. I think very few people would say nothing has changed,
:03:47. > :03:52.because it is significant. Over the next ten years the Irish state,
:03:52. > :03:58.Irish taxpayers would have had to pay 3.2 billion euro each year,
:03:58. > :04:06.every year, in order to pay back. That has now changed. We don't re-
:04:06. > :04:10.pay any of the principal sum for 25 years. It has extended from an
:04:10. > :04:14.average of seven to eight years right out to close to 30 years. The
:04:14. > :04:18.interest rate will be at a lower rate. It is a good deal. It is an
:04:18. > :04:23.important deal. It's not the only solution to our challenges. It's an
:04:23. > :04:26.important part of that. When I talk about people who say not much has
:04:27. > :04:31.changed, they are ordinary workers and many jobless people who look
:04:31. > :04:37.around at the reality of their own lives and, what will change for me?
:04:37. > :04:40.Just looking at the fact that your next budget will be an austerity
:04:40. > :04:45.budget. There'll be taxes on property and water coming up. As
:04:45. > :04:51.far as I understand it, you are committed to cutting four billion
:04:51. > :04:57.more from the state budget by 2015, so the cuts will continue. And the
:04:57. > :05:03.trade union movement say, new deal, same problem, 1.8 million people
:05:03. > :05:10.cannot pay off a bank debt that amounts to 64 billion euros. We're
:05:10. > :05:14.in the process of working out the budgetary impact of this deal.
:05:14. > :05:19.Austerity does continue, doesn't it? Of course it does. Let's be
:05:19. > :05:25.clear. Our consultation programme would have to continue, in any
:05:25. > :05:34.event. Our deficit is very large. Our deficit, even at the end of
:05:34. > :05:40.2012 is 8% of GDP. Peeking this year at just over -- peaking this
:05:40. > :05:45.year at just over 120% GDP. The point we have to make is we have to
:05:45. > :05:50.close the gap between what we are spending and taking in. That
:05:50. > :05:54.doesn't change, irrespective of the banking debt. In essence the EU
:05:54. > :05:59.required your Government to nationalise all that private debt.
:05:59. > :06:05.That's not the only reason. What I am getting is that Irish people
:06:05. > :06:09.look at Greece, for example, where they have successfully, frankly,
:06:09. > :06:14.renegotiated the bailout package. More money from Europe when they
:06:14. > :06:21.said they could not cope with the austerity imposeded on them. Irish
:06:21. > :06:26.people have said, we have played it straight. We have been utterly -
:06:26. > :06:31.beadant to the programme. Because of this we get punished the most.
:06:32. > :06:35.There are two sides to that. One is that I think the situation in
:06:35. > :06:39.Greece is not comparable to the situation in Ireland. We have
:06:39. > :06:44.different problems. There's a different analysis. There are
:06:44. > :06:48.different soe luelgss. It's not -- solutions. It is not fair to say
:06:48. > :06:51.that Ireland has been treated differently or less favourably to
:06:51. > :06:57.how Greece has been treated. I don't think that is true. The
:06:57. > :07:02.second point is we have been working incrementally since we came
:07:02. > :07:07.into office just under two years ago to reduce the burden on Irish
:07:07. > :07:13.taxpayers. The first thing we did was reduce the interest rate on our
:07:13. > :07:19.loans in July 2011. That, over the course of the lifetime of our loans
:07:19. > :07:24.will save 10 billion euro. We have renegotiated the note, which was a
:07:24. > :07:30.completely unfair and unreasonable and unsustainable arrangement
:07:30. > :07:37.between the Irish central bank and the successor to Anglo Irish Bank
:07:37. > :07:43.and the ECB. That will save the Irish taxpayer 20 billion euros.
:07:43. > :07:46.Bit by bit, we are improving the situation. In terms of the debt
:07:46. > :07:50.burden - meanwhile we are concentrating on getting the Irish
:07:50. > :07:56.economy back on track and reforming our economic sector by ensuring
:07:56. > :08:01.that we make Ireland more competitive. Which requires growth.
:08:01. > :08:05.It is difficult to deliver growth when we have seen six austerity
:08:05. > :08:11.budgets. We have discussed the fact there are bound to be more over the
:08:11. > :08:15.coming two to three years. That has not changed. We see unemployment
:08:15. > :08:17.around 15%. We see young people, and we will talk about this more
:08:17. > :08:23.later, but young people leaving this country because they cannot
:08:23. > :08:29.find work. As I put it to you again, the trade unions are leading a
:08:29. > :08:33.popular movement, which says enough, we simply cannot take any more.
:08:33. > :08:37.trade unions obviously have a role which they have to fulfil in Irish
:08:37. > :08:42.society and indeed in the Irish economy. There are other voices as
:08:42. > :08:48.well, for example employ years. It's not just the voice of trade
:08:48. > :08:53.unions we have to listen to. It's the whole package. And all elements
:08:53. > :08:58.of our society. If you look at Ireland, and compare us to other
:08:58. > :09:04.member-states, without naming them but the Irish economy, for example
:09:04. > :09:08.in 2011, bear in mind we entered our IMF programme at the end of
:09:08. > :09:13.2010. 2011 - within a matter of months, the situation in Ireland
:09:13. > :09:17.had stabilised and we began to reattract investment into this
:09:17. > :09:22.economy, which was absent for the previous few years. 2011, for
:09:22. > :09:27.example, was the year where we attracted the highest level of
:09:27. > :09:32.first time foreign investment in the history of the state. Do you
:09:32. > :09:36.believe in Ireland being out of the economic straitjacket imposed by
:09:36. > :09:42.the IMF in the emergency bailout. Will you be escaped from that by
:09:42. > :09:47.the end of this year? Yes. sure? Absolutely. Here's one last
:09:47. > :09:53.figure, which I wonder whether it gives you cause. The trade unions
:09:53. > :09:58.are claiming every Irish person has paid 9,000 euros per capita, in
:09:58. > :10:08.terms of the bank bail out and what it has cost the Irish state and
:10:08. > :10:08.
:10:08. > :10:13.taxpayer. They reckon the average is 192 euros. Ireland they argue
:10:13. > :10:17.has borne the massive brunt of this. If that is to include all debt as
:10:17. > :10:23.if paid up front, well of course that doesn't reflect reality
:10:23. > :10:33.because the repayment period is extended for both the loans that we
:10:33. > :10:37.
:10:37. > :10:42.have had to brother from the E FSM and through -- borrow from the EFSM.
:10:42. > :10:47.8 How on earth are you going to ensure that Europe adopts a
:10:47. > :10:51.programme that delivers stability, growth and jobs? This is the
:10:51. > :10:56.challenge. Our focus is very much, firstly, on ensuring the single
:10:56. > :10:59.market, which has been the success story of the European Union, of the
:10:59. > :11:04.European project - the consumer market of 500 million people, that
:11:04. > :11:11.that is opened up. There is a lot of protectionalism in Europe. We
:11:11. > :11:16.want it opened up so we can see small and medium-sized companies,
:11:16. > :11:19.foreign investors trade across boarders, through the sale and --
:11:19. > :11:23.borders, through the sale and services of all forms of products.
:11:23. > :11:26.That's not the case at the moment. I am interested to hear your
:11:26. > :11:30.language and compare and contrast it with David Cameron across the
:11:30. > :11:35.water, in London, when he made that major speech just the other day,
:11:35. > :11:43.announcing that if he wins the next British election there'll be an in-
:11:43. > :11:47.out referendum on European membership. His message is, right
:11:47. > :11:50.now, he thinks there's something dysfunctional about how the
:11:50. > :11:54.European Union works and for Britain's part he wants a
:11:54. > :12:00.renegotiation of the deal. Do you think there's something
:12:00. > :12:05.dysfunctional about the way the EU works right now? No, I don't. What
:12:05. > :12:08.I took from the speech - I thought it was an interesting speech. It
:12:08. > :12:13.was reaffirming the UK's commitment to the European Union. As long as
:12:13. > :12:17.the European Union reforms. Exactly! Accepts fundamental reform.
:12:17. > :12:21.I think we're all trying. It is difficult - we have 27 member-
:12:21. > :12:25.states. It's not unfortunately possible to reform like that. What
:12:25. > :12:28.we want to do and I think that Ireland and the UK have a very
:12:28. > :12:32.common agenda in this respect and David Cameron is the first person
:12:32. > :12:35.to talk about the potential for the single market - the first person to
:12:35. > :12:41.praise the single market over the past 20 years and talk about the
:12:41. > :12:46.need to improve it. Britain is by far your biggest trading partner in
:12:46. > :12:50.the world in fact. When one of the respected economic commentators
:12:50. > :12:54.here wrote this the other day I wonder whether you agree. "Whether
:12:54. > :12:57.politicians like it or not, relations with Britain are far more
:12:58. > :13:02.important than relations with any other country in the world. Britain
:13:02. > :13:09.is our future, as well as our past." Do you agree with that?
:13:09. > :13:14.certainly think that the UK is our most - it is clear the UK is our
:13:14. > :13:19.most important trading partner. Our bilateral relations are stronger
:13:19. > :13:29.than ever before. How big a problem would it be if the British public
:13:29. > :13:36.
:13:37. > :13:42.in 2017, if they voted to leave the I hope it doesn't happen. I don't
:13:42. > :13:48.believe it will happen. I hope it isn't the case. Assuming Britain
:13:48. > :13:52.left the EU and the single market, what would Ireland do? We wouldn't
:13:52. > :13:57.be following suit. We see a huge potential, as does the British
:13:57. > :14:00.Government, in deepening the single market and exploiting all of the
:14:00. > :14:06.potential from the single market that exists for now and for the
:14:06. > :14:10.future. I think the other point that is hugely important for us, a
:14:10. > :14:15.country that has very strong ties with the United States and huge
:14:15. > :14:18.hopes and expectations to broaden our horizons in terms of global
:14:18. > :14:23.trade, that leaving the European Union, at a time when the EU is
:14:23. > :14:27.just about to embark on a free trade agreement with the the United
:14:27. > :14:32.States, Canada and Japan and other crucial regions of the world, we
:14:32. > :14:38.don't want to turn our back on that. Your Prime Minister has been very
:14:39. > :14:47.clear that Britain, in the end, cannot, and various metaphors are
:14:47. > :14:53.used, cannot expect an to cherry- pick the powers it wants it
:14:53. > :14:55.repatriate and dictate the terms of a club which is of 27, soon to be
:14:56. > :15:02.28mebts members, not all about the needs of one particular member?
:15:02. > :15:05.think that is fair. Ireland, in essence, think that is Britain is
:15:05. > :15:11.being profoundly selfish? No, I wouldn't say that. Look, I
:15:11. > :15:19.appreciate that there is a very difficult debate in the UK on this
:15:19. > :15:22.subject. I appreciate that... That the UK Government, I think, I
:15:22. > :15:27.presume British citizens, want to clarify the relationship with the
:15:27. > :15:31.European Union. Before we end, I do want to address a few, sort of,
:15:31. > :15:35.internal issues in Ireland. It seems to me you have been one of
:15:35. > :15:39.the out spoken ministers in the gurnt government. Delivering an
:15:39. > :15:43.interesting message that Ireland needs to modernise and change. You
:15:43. > :15:47.said for Ireland too long has had a disfunctional political system. You
:15:47. > :15:51.suggested it would be good for Ireland to be a little more
:15:51. > :15:55.ideological. To have clearer dividing linings between political
:15:55. > :15:59.parties based on ideology and less of the old networking cronyism that
:15:59. > :16:02.we have seen in the past. Is that a fair reflection of the way you
:16:02. > :16:06.think Ireland must change? Certainly. With the caveat that, of
:16:06. > :16:10.course, it's unusual that we also have a government that is
:16:10. > :16:13.compromised of the centre left and the centre-right. We have a very
:16:13. > :16:18.broad government at the moment. Still cronies in government?
:16:18. > :16:22.wouldn't say that. I think it's useful to that we have a very large
:16:22. > :16:26.majority in government and stable majority in government, but, of
:16:26. > :16:30.course, obviously, you know, it impacts on this discussion about
:16:30. > :16:35.having an ideological kind of Ireland. Ideological and modern.
:16:35. > :16:39.That is the direction you want Ireland to go in. I wonder why you
:16:39. > :16:44.have decided to take a couple of high profiles file position that is
:16:44. > :16:48.maybe wouldn't fit easily into that notion of modernisation. First one,
:16:48. > :16:53.on gay marriage. You have said you are up for civil partnerships. You
:16:54. > :16:59.believe they are the right way to go. You do not want to see gay
:16:59. > :17:06.marriage in Ireland? Why? Well, I spotion, I have been a supporter --
:17:06. > :17:12.suppose, I have been a supporter of the notion that gay people should
:17:12. > :17:17.have -- Equality? Rights. Surely equality means, should they wish to
:17:17. > :17:21.do so, they can get married in the same way that heterosexual couples
:17:21. > :17:27.can get married? It is a matser of opinion in our constitution and the
:17:27. > :17:31.way it is interpreted by our court system marriage is and has been and
:17:31. > :17:35.continues to be defined as a marriage between a man and woman.
:17:35. > :17:39.You are defending it on the basis of tradition? There is not
:17:39. > :17:43.something wrong with tradition. teasing out with how it fits with
:17:43. > :17:49.your notion that Ireland needs to modernise, needs to look forward to
:17:49. > :17:52.the 21st century? Absolutely. I don't think modernisation means you
:17:52. > :17:55.abandon tradition. I think you can have both side by side. There are
:17:55. > :18:00.many ways in which we need to modernise, I don't happen to
:18:00. > :18:07.believe that is one of them. Speaking as somebody who, unlike
:18:07. > :18:10.many of my colleagues in our Parliament spoke on our legislation,
:18:10. > :18:14.two years ago, to introduce civil partnership, I spoke in favour of
:18:14. > :18:19.it because I believed it was the right thing. That, I suppose, you
:18:19. > :18:24.know, is a matter of opinion. Another one passionate - What I
:18:24. > :18:28.think will happen, on that subject, I think that there will be most
:18:28. > :18:32.likely a referendum to change the definition of marriage in our
:18:32. > :18:36.constitution at some point. What do you think they will decide? I don't
:18:36. > :18:41.know. Genuinely I don't know. I think there are very divided
:18:41. > :18:45.opinions. Opinions are shifting, aren't they? If one is going to be
:18:45. > :18:48.very blunt about it, the role and influence of the Catholic Church is
:18:48. > :18:53.changing pretty rapidly in this country? Absolutely. Which brings
:18:53. > :18:59.me to another point, your passionate defence of Ireland's
:18:59. > :19:03.current laws and practices when it comes to abortion. It's one of the
:19:03. > :19:07.most draconia countries in the Europe when it comes to outlawing
:19:07. > :19:12.abortion. Abortions can only happen in this country if there is a
:19:12. > :19:15.substantial, significant risk to the life of the mother. You want
:19:15. > :19:20.the current status quo to be maintained even though there is a
:19:20. > :19:24.very loud and public argument now, with many Irish people, who want a
:19:24. > :19:29.change. Indeed, your own government is now talking about legislating to
:19:29. > :19:33.be clearer and actually a little broader about the specification in
:19:33. > :19:40.which an abortion can be carried out. Why are you against that?
:19:40. > :19:45.Firstly, I would take issue with the view that having a very
:19:45. > :19:54.restrictive position on abortion in this country is how draconia. We
:19:54. > :19:58.have a very clear position in our constitution. What word would you
:19:58. > :20:04.use? To explain. In our constitution we, as a country, and
:20:04. > :20:08.the Irish state, values equally the right to life of mothers and babies.
:20:08. > :20:12.And, that includes unborn babies. There is no distinction nor
:20:12. > :20:15.hierarchy. A final point on this, you know Bert than I do the stats
:20:15. > :20:21.here, there are hundreds and hundreds of women, over the last
:20:21. > :20:27.three years alone, who have left the Irish Republic to get abortions
:20:27. > :20:33.abroad. Many in the UK. These include 19 rape victims, 21 with
:20:34. > :20:41.severe health problems, more than 20 girls under the age of 16. Now,
:20:41. > :20:47.does it seem to you right that the way the system works right now,
:20:47. > :20:52.those extremely vulnerable young women all have to go abroad to get
:20:52. > :20:57.abortions? Well, firstly, I don't know where your information is
:20:57. > :21:02.coming from. I think it's, from my point of view, I'm just speaking
:21:02. > :21:11.from my personal point of view, I feel very strongly that, you know,
:21:11. > :21:16.there is virtually a very, very few circumstances that I'm aware of
:21:16. > :21:21.where treatment cannot and should not be provided for women who are
:21:21. > :21:26.vulnerable who are pregnant. I don't see abortion as a treatment
:21:26. > :21:31.for vulnerable women. I mean, it depends, I suppose, on your view of
:21:31. > :21:35.life. It depends on your view of unborn children. I feel very
:21:35. > :21:39.strongly, I support strongly our constitution position that there is
:21:39. > :21:43.an equal right to life of women and unborn babies. You know, that is
:21:43. > :21:48.something that I think Irish people have held dear for many, many years.
:21:48. > :21:53.It is something that I consider to be worth defending. A final point
:21:54. > :21:58.then, it is a bigger issue, I suppose, but it continues this
:21:58. > :22:01.theme about where Ireland is going and the modernisation and the
:22:01. > :22:05.change of Ireland. It seems a loft young people, you are a young
:22:05. > :22:10.politician, a lot of young people in Ireland have lost faith in the
:22:10. > :22:14.notion that Ireland can modernise, can change itself and certainly can
:22:14. > :22:18.reform its economy in a way that will give them a really positive
:22:18. > :22:22.future? The immigration figures, once again in Ireland, are very
:22:22. > :22:28.troubling. You have, I think, in the last year something between 85
:22:28. > :22:33.and 8 7,000 people, Irish people, left this country. Reminiscant of
:22:34. > :22:38.the figures back in the 19th century. Why do you believe so many
:22:38. > :22:43.young Irish people are leaving? think because we don't have the
:22:43. > :22:48.opportunities here for them. I think so many young Irish people,
:22:48. > :22:51.when they leave university, or when they finish their training or when
:22:51. > :22:57.they leave second level school they don't see opportunities here.
:22:57. > :23:01.That's - The country is failing them? Well, it has, certainly. We
:23:01. > :23:07.have gone... In such a short time. This has been a shock to the system.
:23:07. > :23:14.We have done from a short period of time, since the beginning of 200 to
:23:14. > :23:20.20134, -- 2013, less than five years from being a country that was
:23:20. > :23:25.growing, die Natic and had huge opportunities, endless job
:23:25. > :23:30.opportunities, opportunities for all sorts of careers and lifestyles
:23:30. > :23:34.and I think that that really, you know, almost with the prick of a
:23:34. > :23:38.pin, just disappeared and evaporated. That is why we are
:23:38. > :23:42.working hard to gradually rebuild that. I don't think that anybody
:23:42. > :23:47.really wants to return to the Celtic Tiger, sort of, either
:23:47. > :23:51.economy or society that we had during that period, but, I mean, I
:23:51. > :23:55.really genuinely feel that the step that is we have taken, while they
:23:55. > :23:57.have been very difficult, very painful, are beginning to show and
:23:57. > :24:01.beginning to show results and beginning to start reestablishing
:24:01. > :24:05.opportunities for young people. That is what I see as my task in
:24:05. > :24:10.government. You know, that is what we are doing. We are working round-
:24:10. > :24:15.the-clock, all of our ministers, all of our government, to try to
:24:15. > :24:19.turn around what was essentially, you know, a situation of free-fall
:24:19. > :24:23.and try to put back the foundations so that we can start to build it up
:24:23. > :24:26.again and give people hope and show young people that there are
:24:26. > :24:32.opportunities and that Ireland is a great place to live in. A great