:00:04. > :00:14.torture. Those are the latest headlines. It
:00:14. > :00:16.
:00:16. > :00:21.The US Republican Party is in a mess. Badly beaten in the race for
:00:21. > :00:25.the White House, seemingly out of touch with mainstream opinion on
:00:25. > :00:29.issues from immigration to gun- control and in danger of being
:00:29. > :00:33.outmanoeuvred by President Obama in the continued stand-off over the
:00:33. > :00:37.federal budget. Like yesterday's former Republican candidate for
:00:37. > :00:47.President Jon Huntsman. A moderate frequently at odds with his own
:00:47. > :01:09.
:01:10. > :01:15.party. Is the American right on the Jon Huntsman, in Washington, DC,
:01:15. > :01:21.welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you, Stephen, a pleasure to be with you.
:01:21. > :01:28.Are you in any meaningful sense a Republican right now? Of course I
:01:28. > :01:33.Abraham Lincoln, our very first Republican. He believed that
:01:33. > :01:36.individual dignity and the quality under the law. I am a Teddy
:01:37. > :01:43.Roosevelt Republican, who believed in a strong presence around the
:01:43. > :01:48.creating new alliances. He believed to a strong commitment to the
:01:48. > :01:54.environment. I am an Eisenhower Republican, he dealt our
:01:54. > :01:59.infrastructure system. I am not sure how we would be without that
:01:59. > :02:05.today. I am a Ronald Reagan Republican, who believed in the
:02:05. > :02:10.importance of freedom. He also brought about the most significant
:02:10. > :02:16.chapter in American history during my lifetime. That's all sorts of
:02:16. > :02:19.different from publicans that to claim to be. But you're also a
:02:19. > :02:23.Republican who said in the recent past that Europe party is
:02:23. > :02:27.leaderless and devoid of soul. He also promised never to go to
:02:27. > :02:35.another Republican Party convention until the party had embraced
:02:35. > :02:40.problem-solving and inclusiveness. I would stand by that. That is
:02:40. > :02:43.exactly where the party needs to be. We are without a leader today. It
:02:43. > :02:49.becomes difficult to punched through with a real proposals that
:02:50. > :02:54.resonate with the American people until you win an election. We need
:02:54. > :02:59.a party that speaks to electability. We need to bring on board some lost
:02:59. > :03:05.constituencies. We have to recast our view of the issues and freshen
:03:05. > :03:08.them up and put a 21st century spin on them. We need to discuss the
:03:08. > :03:12.issues that matter most to people in ways that we have not
:03:12. > :03:22.traditionally. When you stop to think, we have lost to the popular
:03:22. > :03:24.
:03:24. > :03:30.vote. All at once since 1988. Look at the Mac. -- all but once. We
:03:30. > :03:37.have a proud tradition going back what we have done historically to
:03:37. > :03:42.move history. I want to talk about the issues, all of them, and how
:03:42. > :03:46.that s that will reach out to mainstream
:03:46. > :03:53.Americans. The party clearly did not in the 2012 presidential
:03:53. > :03:58.election. I want to cast your mind back to that raced for one moment.
:03:58. > :04:04.You gave the impression of being a the re of
:04:04. > :04:09.the Republican race for the White House nomination. Is that true?
:04:09. > :04:17.There was a sense of frivolity in a good part of the primary phases of
:04:17. > :04:22.the campaign. To some extent, you they covered it and would highlight
:04:22. > :04:24.frivolous issues. The way they would take what should have been
:04:24. > :04:29.legitimate debates and conversations with the American
:04:29. > :04:35.people. I canter to get away with that. You cannot blame the media
:04:35. > :04:40.for the nature of the field. You debates looking deeply
:04:40. > :04:48.uncomfortable. After you had been humiliated by the party, your
:04:48. > :04:53.the scale, you said the quality of the field was poor. You said the
:04:53. > :04:57.threshold for entry into the race was, in your words, pretty low.
:04:57. > :05:02.This is a problem in the politics of the United States. The barriers
:05:02. > :05:07.to entry are such that most people, in whatever part of life, are not
:05:07. > :05:12.willing to enter the arena. The pain is significant. The issues
:05:12. > :05:16.with respect to the way in which it is look that and you have to
:05:16. > :05:20.disconnect with the rest of what you have do you have do
:05:20. > :05:26.professionally. A lot of people consider that a price too high to
:05:26. > :05:32.pay. I encourage young people to get involved in politics. It is in
:05:32. > :05:38.a sense shameful that a country of 315-320 million people,
:05:38. > :05:44.terrifically creative and innovative, that we do not have
:05:44. > :05:48.more people willing to step into the arena. Let us now look front
:05:49. > :05:52.and centre at the problems facing the Republican Party today and
:05:52. > :05:57.methods which to think the party should get out of those problems.
:05:57. > :06:03.First of all, a proposition. Do you accept that the centre of gravity
:06:03. > :06:08.in the Republican Party is too far to the right? I would say that
:06:08. > :06:14.those most involved in the early primary organising faces of the
:06:14. > :06:19.Republican Party told to the right. When you give to the general
:06:19. > :06:24.election you find a much more mainstream base. Most Republicans
:06:24. > :06:31.do not know where they belong. A lot of independence are Republicans
:06:31. > :06:40.unaffiliated categoric. If you stop and breakdown the demographics, the
:06:40. > :06:48.fastest growing party in America is the UN affiliated party. It is
:06:48. > :06:52.people who buy in tonight decide. - - into neither side. I am
:06:52. > :06:56.interested in the fact to focus on the difference between grassroots
:06:56. > :07:01.Republicans and mainstream American voters. Is it true that you
:07:01. > :07:06.actually think a lot of people involved in the nomination process,
:07:06. > :07:10.the very active grassroots, are in one way or another crazy? I do not
:07:10. > :07:16.think they are crazy. I think they care passionately about the issues.
:07:16. > :07:21.I would like to see the primary process opened up so more people
:07:21. > :07:29.can participate. Let me quote to you this sarcastic Twitter post to
:07:29. > :07:33.put. I believe in evolution and trust the scientists on global
:07:33. > :07:37.warming, call me crazy. There can be no clearer signal that to think
:07:38. > :07:44.a lot of people who cannot believe what you just alluded to recite
:07:44. > :07:48.inside the Republican Party today. I wanted to set down a marker as I
:07:48. > :07:54.did in a debate at the Royal Drayton Library that was consistent
:07:54. > :07:58.with that. You cannot be a party that has a significant enough
:07:58. > :08:02.foundation, enough of a demographic appeal, if you're not willing to
:08:02. > :08:06.embrace mainstream science. If you are running from science, you are
:08:06. > :08:10.running from the American mainstream. That is not a place
:08:10. > :08:14.where the Republican party can go. I wanted to make sure there were
:08:14. > :08:21.people out there who knew that Titian or publicans still do
:08:21. > :08:27.believe we have a strong scientific foundation. -- Republicans. That
:08:27. > :08:30.has been a tenant of the Republican Party all along. Is that what the
:08:30. > :08:35.governor of North Carolina was talking about when he said that
:08:35. > :08:39.Republicans have to stop being the stupid party. It is time for us to
:08:39. > :08:44.talk like adults. It seems to me that there are some senior figures
:08:44. > :08:51.inside the party who are really out of sync and feeling alienated with
:08:51. > :08:56.what they see in the grassroots and you are one of them. Elections are
:08:56. > :09:01.clarifying experiences. You look back on the Mostar demographics. We
:09:01. > :09:08.lost the use for it. We lost the Hispanic vote. We lost the Asian-
:09:08. > :09:11.American vote. If you start putting the pieces together, we are not
:09:12. > :09:16.addressing core issues in a way that resonates with people. Maybe
:09:16. > :09:20.we need to create a new hierarchy of priorities. Maybe we need to
:09:20. > :09:24.communicate about these issues differently. But we will always
:09:24. > :09:28.remain the party of freedom and opportunity. That is not getting
:09:28. > :09:33.through at all. We can now go through some specific issues. We
:09:33. > :09:36.have to start with economy and the management of the economy. The
:09:36. > :09:42.stand-off between Republicans, the leadership in Congress and
:09:42. > :09:48.President Obama over the federal budget continues. We had not really
:09:48. > :09:53.gone over the fiscal cliff. And now we have the budget deal by 1st
:09:53. > :09:59.March. Sequestration will kick in and over ten years more than one
:09:59. > :10:04.trillion dollars will be sliced off the federal budget. $85 billion
:10:04. > :10:09.over the first year. The Obama Teamsters this deal has to involve
:10:09. > :10:18.not just cuts in spending, but also revenue-raising measures. That his
:10:18. > :10:23.tax measures as well. Do you agree? To there is a deal to be had.
:10:23. > :10:29.back to the original comment. We need to be the party of problem-
:10:29. > :10:36.solving. There is a deal to be had. When people with common sense get
:10:36. > :10:41.together, you can find enough cuts. You have got to address Medicare.
:10:41. > :10:45.And you can talk about the phasing out of loopholes and deductions in
:10:45. > :10:51.the tax code. There is enough there that needs to be cleaned out.
:10:51. > :10:55.me stop you there. You have made the crucial point. You say that we
:10:55. > :11:01.have to address closing those loopholes and tax codes. You know
:11:01. > :11:08.that your own colleagues in the Republican Party at the top of the
:11:08. > :11:12.party in the Congress are adamantly opposed to tax reform right now.
:11:12. > :11:17.am a Republican. An elected Republican governor. This is what I
:11:17. > :11:23.did to my own tax code in my state. We delivered a flat tax. Probably
:11:23. > :11:33.the only one in the entire country. I was attacked by the left and
:11:33. > :11:38.right. We phased out loopholes. That is what needs to be happen.
:11:38. > :11:44.This is a perfect opportunity to begin and make steps towards that
:11:44. > :11:53.reality. These things always kind of collapse at the 11th hour. That
:11:53. > :11:57.is legitimate. We need to clean out of the new polls. Fascinating. You
:11:57. > :12:04.call it a Republican principle. But it seems you are lining up more on
:12:04. > :12:11.the Obama side of the argument. I just want to continue this with one
:12:11. > :12:14.thought. We had grew from request on. He has been one of the most
:12:15. > :12:18.influential figures in the Republican leadership insisting
:12:18. > :12:22.that every Republican in public life sign a pledge saying they will
:12:22. > :12:27.never in their political career sign on to raising any form of
:12:27. > :12:33.taxation. Do you believe it is time the Republicans abandoned that sort
:12:33. > :12:38.of pledge? As I said during the campaign, the only place we should
:12:38. > :12:46.be taking is a pledge of allegiance to our country. I did not sign that
:12:46. > :12:50.pledge. I did not sign any other pledges. I think Republicans give
:12:50. > :12:57.themselves awful entanglements when they begin to sign pledges. That's
:12:57. > :13:03.all part of the primary process we talked about earlier. Tax reform
:13:03. > :13:08.from 1986 under President Ronald Reagan did exactly well. A lot of
:13:08. > :13:13.Republicans would like to see that done. That would be phasing out the
:13:13. > :13:18.loopholes and deductions. It desperately needs to be done. We
:13:18. > :13:23.are carrying one trillion $100 billion worth of nonsense in the
:13:24. > :13:28.tax code. We have a perfect opportunity before us to fix it.
:13:28. > :13:33.final point on this budget argument if we could, and keep it brief.
:13:33. > :13:37.Right now, do you agree with me or the perception that I see in the
:13:37. > :13:42.United States that Obama and the Democrats a winning the argument?
:13:42. > :13:47.He says the Republican position is jeopardising the jobs of first
:13:47. > :13:52.responders, teachers and huge amounts of military spending. He
:13:52. > :13:56.says Republicans risk, with the current stance on the budget,
:13:56. > :14:06.jeopardising American national security. Is it time for the
:14:06. > :14:09.
:14:09. > :14:13.Republicans to take away that It was put on the table by the
:14:13. > :14:18.President himself because we could not figure out how to deal with the
:14:18. > :14:23.debt ceiling. They wanted to make it so onerous, they put in over a
:14:23. > :14:28.trillion dollars for defence and funding. Here we are, confronting
:14:28. > :14:33.the same problem we had a couple of years ago. The reason the President
:14:34. > :14:40.is winning this debate is because our party is divided on the message.
:14:40. > :14:44.If our message spoke to economic growth and greater opportunity
:14:44. > :14:50.through taking cuts that our t of
:14:50. > :14:54.our budget, you can't compete when you get a debt to GDP ratio that we
:14:54. > :14:58.have today. And beginning to move more towards entitlement reforms,
:14:58. > :15:02.which everybody knows needs to get down. And in exchange for that,
:15:02. > :15:06.dealing with some of the loopholes, including cuts out of the
:15:06. > :15:09.Department of Defence, we could have a deal. Those are the elements
:15:09. > :15:13.the American people would hear about and they would resonate with
:15:13. > :15:19.them and allow the Republican Party to take some higher ground. But we
:15:19. > :15:22.have many voices speaking for the party now. He has one voice and it
:15:22. > :15:29.is easier to control the debate out of the White House will you have a
:15:29. > :15:33.single voice. He is using it to all of that. Let's look at a couple of
:15:33. > :15:38.other issues. Starting with immigration. You have talked about
:15:38. > :15:43.the terrible demographics for the Republican Republican the last
:15:43. > :15:49.election. The Latino for it -- vote, you were decimated. He now is
:15:49. > :15:55.adamant that there must be a new immigration legislation, which
:15:55. > :16:02.gives illegal immigrants, around 11 million in the US today, a clear
:16:02. > :16:05.path to citizenship. The game, that has deeply split the Republican
:16:05. > :16:10.Party. -- again. What is your advice to the Republicans on what
:16:11. > :16:17.they must do on the immigration question? The immigration question
:16:17. > :16:22.has to be seen as an economic opportunity, as it's a security
:16:22. > :16:27.concern. Our party needs to talk about this issue as much as an
:16:27. > :16:31.economic opportunity as just a security concern. There must be a
:16:31. > :16:36.pathway for those 11-12 million people. There's no other way you
:16:36. > :16:41.can deal with it. In exchange for that, we need several things on the
:16:41. > :16:46.border to be in effect that would speak to our overall security. I
:16:46. > :16:50.suspect many of those things are under way. But just as importantly,
:16:50. > :16:54.our nation and the Republican party should be putting forward ideas to
:16:55. > :17:00.actively recruit people, immigrants, into this country that will
:17:00. > :17:04.revitalise our competitive base, Brain Power in an innovative spirit.
:17:04. > :17:08.We don't talk about that and we are losing the losing the re
:17:08. > :17:13.talking more about security than we are the economic impact of good
:17:13. > :17:19.immigration policy. You are dead right on that. For we should be
:17:19. > :17:23.actively recruiting people to come to this country. You say
:17:23. > :17:26.Republicans focus too much on security. I wonder what you feel
:17:26. > :17:30.when you hear Republicans like Herman Cain, the man you ran
:17:30. > :17:36.against in the early days of the primaries, do you know what he said
:17:36. > :17:43.when it came to immigration? He says it is about fences. We need to
:17:43. > :17:48.build an ideal for Defence, 20 feet be electrified and there will be a
:17:48. > :17:54.sign on the other side saying, it will kill you. That is the mindset
:17:54. > :17:59.that so many Republicans still have. Here is the opening that we have as
:17:59. > :18:04.a Republican Party. If you look at the numbers on the border, we are
:18:04. > :18:09.saying more go south then come to us. The numbers are as low as they
:18:09. > :18:14.have been in four years. Why? There are no jobs attracting people. More
:18:14. > :18:17.are popping up in Mexico. Because the border is flat, in terms of
:18:17. > :18:22.migration, it's a perfect opportunity to put our passion
:18:22. > :18:26.aside and a look pragmatically at how we begin to fix this thing. We
:18:26. > :18:31.will not fix it unless we address the 11-12 million people here. I
:18:31. > :18:35.did it as a governor and took a lot of ribbing because I was an early
:18:35. > :18:39.proponent of the dream Act, part of the peaks in the state, and it
:18:39. > :18:43.helped make the economy function. That is what my constituency has
:18:43. > :18:48.cared about. You talk about fixing and the suggest Republicans need to
:18:48. > :18:53.be more pragmatic but nobody in your party seems to be listening.
:18:53. > :18:58.One other specific issue, gun control. After the terrible tragedy
:18:58. > :19:02.at Sandy Hook Elementary School, President Obama is pushing hard for
:19:02. > :19:06.serious gun control reform. He says it has to be about not just beefed
:19:06. > :19:12.up background checks but a ban on assault weapons, as was previously
:19:12. > :19:17.the case in the US, and new control on magazine clips to make sure you
:19:17. > :19:23.can't fire off so many bullets in one go. Most of that won't happen
:19:23. > :19:26.because Republicans in Congress went back it. I think we have
:19:26. > :19:33.plenty of Democrats, particularly those in western states, who will
:19:33. > :19:38.not back it either. -- went back it. This is as much driven by geography
:19:38. > :19:43.as anything else. Particularly with a name like Jon Huntsman, we have
:19:43. > :19:50.certain biases when we approach this issue. Hang on, let's not be
:19:50. > :19:54.flippant. This is serious business. Of course. By a two-thirds majority,
:19:54. > :20:00.Americans want serious gun control legislation. OK. What constitutes
:20:00. > :20:04.that? Americans will always have access to guns, we have always had
:20:04. > :20:09.that and it is written into the constitution, but they will be no
:20:09. > :20:13.fix on this issue unless it is complete with some way to address
:20:13. > :20:17.mental health, because right now the local budgets are being cut
:20:17. > :20:23.like never before. The first to go is usually mental health services
:20:23. > :20:27.and facilities. That needs to be fixed. No. Two, we need to have a
:20:27. > :20:32.conversation with Hollywood about the glorification of violence. One
:20:32. > :20:37.generation after another. That is having an impact. And the whole
:20:37. > :20:42.magazine conversation, those banana clips, 30-40 round magazines, this
:20:42. > :20:47.is a sensible thing that Republicans should be talking about.
:20:47. > :20:51.One more specific point. Then we are running out of time. Not so
:20:51. > :20:56.much on the part as an arena, more to tap into your insight as a
:20:56. > :20:59.former ambassador in Beijing. And man who knows more about the US-
:20:59. > :21:08.China relationship than anyone in the country. Press reports suggest
:21:08. > :21:15.China has used the internet and cyber warfare to spy on so many
:21:15. > :21:19.different important American institutions. We now see cause for
:21:19. > :21:23.retaliation from the US. Are we close to a new and dangerous phase,
:21:23. > :21:29.do you believe, in the relationship between Washington and Beijing?
:21:29. > :21:33.This has been building up for some time. We are where we are today. Of
:21:33. > :21:41.all of the side the threads that we look at as a country, probably 80%
:21:41. > :21:46.come from China. -- cyber threat. thieves, some from the military and
:21:46. > :21:52.some from the government. -- crooks. The way we combat this going
:21:52. > :21:55.forward, there is only one way. We have to have cyber security of
:21:55. > :21:59.sufficient weight in our conversations with China, where
:21:59. > :22:04.they know it's a top three priority in the issues that matter to us.
:22:04. > :22:09.I may, I am fascinated by your words. I want to quote you these
:22:09. > :22:13.words, he is a security commentator, we can't play tit-for-tat and let
:22:14. > :22:18.the Chinese escalate. You have to hit their military and intelligence,
:22:18. > :22:21.computer networks, with shocking force. That seems to be an
:22:21. > :22:31.increasingly influential view in Washington. Do you worry about
:22:31. > :22:32.
:22:32. > :22:37.good at this kind of technology as well. As are many other countries.
:22:37. > :22:41.Before it escalates to the point where it is out of hand, this has
:22:41. > :22:45.to be top -- talked about in ways that speak to allowing us to
:22:45. > :22:49.develop counter-measures, a technology development and an
:22:49. > :22:54.economic development opportunity, we should always be a step ahead in
:22:54. > :22:58.terms of our own capabilities. No. Two, we should talk about a stint
:22:58. > :23:02.red lines that should not be crossed. If they are crossed, there
:23:02. > :23:10.is a penalty or punishment. But in order to have this conversation...
:23:10. > :23:15.What penalty? Listen, I am coach tearing a security task force that
:23:15. > :23:20.will take 2-3 months and we will roll out thinking along these lines.
:23:20. > :23:24.I will not prevent that by throwing anything out right now. Suffice to
:23:24. > :23:29.say we will provide a comprehensive report on the options available to
:23:29. > :23:34.the US and what we should think about. -- pre-empt that. This will
:23:34. > :23:38.be a centrepiece issue going forward. You talk about going
:23:38. > :23:41.forward, a final question, I knew committed to running again, despite
:23:41. > :23:47.your bruising experience at the hands of your own party last year?
:23:47. > :23:51.Will you run again in 2016 and as a Republican or third-party
:23:51. > :23:55.candidate? I am a committed Republican and I always have been.
:23:55. > :24:00.My view on many of the issues, evidenced by how many are beginning
:24:00. > :24:05.to refocus on exactly what we talked about before the election,
:24:05. > :24:10.now that we have been beaten badly again, I think we are at the sweet
:24:10. > :24:15.spot where many Republicans want to be. -- where many Republicans. As
:24:15. > :24:19.for us, we will be willing to give it serious consideration at the
:24:19. > :24:24.right time. Now is not the right time. You sound like a man who has
:24:24. > :24:27.decided to run. Don't tell my family. There will be an