:00:02. > :00:12.can get in touch with me and most of the team on Twitter.
:00:12. > :00:17.
:00:17. > :00:21.The Roman Catholic Church has been rocked by not one, but two shock
:00:21. > :00:26.and surprise resignations. First, Pope Benedict steps down this week
:00:26. > :00:30.after announcing he is too old and infirm for the office. In Britain's
:00:30. > :00:34.most senior Catholic, Cardinal Keith O'Brien, resigned after
:00:34. > :00:40.allegations that he contests over behaviour towards priests 30 years
:00:40. > :00:44.ago. His departure puts a spotlight on the Catholic Church's attitudes
:00:44. > :00:49.towards homosexuality. My guest today his father Bernard Lynch, one
:00:49. > :00:53.of the few openly gay Catholic priests. As cuddles prepared to
:00:54. > :01:03.elect a new pope, how will the Church recover from this blow at a
:01:04. > :01:26.
:01:26. > :01:31.Father Bernard Lynch, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you very much.
:01:31. > :01:35.to think that the Catholic Church, which does so much good, has been
:01:35. > :01:42.defined by its stand on sexual behaviour, particularly
:01:42. > :01:46.homosexuality? I do indeed. I think it is tragic the entire social
:01:46. > :01:53.justice history of the Church has been collapsed into what amounts to
:01:53. > :02:02.sexual oppression. Be that of women or lesbian, gay, transgender,
:02:02. > :02:07.openly gay Catholic priests? You have been a very outspoken advocate
:02:07. > :02:11.of gay rights within the Catholic Church. Are you not perhaps get
:02:11. > :02:16.adding to that perception the Roman Catholic Church is just obsessed
:02:16. > :02:22.with homosexuality? I am still a Catholic and still within the
:02:22. > :02:32.church, working for justice. There is such injustice. Particularly
:02:32. > :02:33.
:02:33. > :02:41.towards sexual minorities. My work has been up until very recently
:02:41. > :02:51.around HIV and Aids. The genesis of my work was during the problems in
:02:51. > :02:56.
:02:56. > :03:05.Europe city. I was working with an called dignity. We had 1,200
:03:05. > :03:10.members at the time. In 1982. did a lot of fine work there that
:03:10. > :03:13.many people have applauded. The point I'm making is that when you
:03:13. > :03:19.look at the discussions about the resignation of Cardinal Keith
:03:19. > :03:25.O'Brien, he himself said, looking back over my years of ministry, I
:03:25. > :03:30.thank God. I apologise to all of my offended.
:03:30. > :03:37.offended. This man with a long career, maybe 75 years of age,
:03:37. > :03:46.people will perhaps remember these accusations of improper behaviour.
:03:46. > :03:52.More than dirty years ago. That is what people remember. It is a pity.
:03:52. > :03:58.But what answer to that, and this of course is classic oppression,
:03:58. > :04:04.where somebody who is homosexual. We do not know that. He has
:04:04. > :04:12.contested the allegations. I find that among my fellow priests that
:04:12. > :04:19.my greatest support for my work and my advocacy comes from the street
:04:19. > :04:26.priests. We as gay priests, if we are under classical terminology
:04:26. > :04:32.according to Pope Benedict, if we are eager reduced on it, if we hate
:04:32. > :04:40.our homosexuality, we are acceptable as priests. If we accept
:04:40. > :04:46.and try to live healthy, a bit sell that lives, we are not to be
:04:46. > :04:52.allowed into the priesthood to begin with. The projection of self-
:04:52. > :04:58.hatred, the condemnation very often comes from people that may well be
:04:58. > :05:01.gave themselves. When you had that Cardinal Keith O'Brien had resigned
:05:01. > :05:07.and there were these allegations against him, in what way do you
:05:07. > :05:16.think it was significant? How does it sum up what the Catholic Church
:05:16. > :05:24.represents? It bespeaks a total incongruity in if these allegations
:05:24. > :05:30.are true, and they were made by priests, four priests. One of them
:05:30. > :05:40.has married. Once a priest, always a priest as far as I'm concerned.
:05:40. > :05:41.
:05:41. > :05:48.That is a teaching of the church. If these allegations are true, the
:05:48. > :05:58.fact that Cardinal Keith O'Brien was so does so for us in his
:05:58. > :06:05.attitude towards gay marriage, it begs the question. Why do we skip
:06:05. > :06:10.could engage people? An already long hurt and suffering community.
:06:10. > :06:14.You just said gay marriage. You are married to Europe gay partner. You
:06:14. > :06:20.have been happily married to your partner for 15 years. Do you want
:06:20. > :06:25.to see the Roman Catholic Church except Kimmeridge? I do indeed. --
:06:25. > :06:31.to gay marriage. You are typical of Cardinal O'Brien because he was not
:06:31. > :06:37.for gay marriage? He is entitled to say he is not for gay marriage, as
:06:37. > :06:44.indeed it is any priest a Catholic. But he compared it to the
:06:44. > :06:49.reintroduction of slavery. I do not being a bit too hard and demanding
:06:49. > :06:56.too much of the Catholic Church in this regard? Frankly, if you look
:06:56. > :07:05.at the debate on gay marriage in the UK, we had left hundred done 75
:07:05. > :07:13.MPs vote against it. -- 475. A similar vote in France. 225 against
:07:13. > :07:18.gay marriage. A secular state. Islam, orthodox Judaism, there are
:07:18. > :07:24.a lot of people. Why should the Roman Catholic Church accept
:07:24. > :07:31.something a lot of people do not? The Church, the church that a lot
:07:31. > :07:41.and have given my life to, was against democracy, for slavery,
:07:41. > :07:51.against the vote for women. Does not treat women as equal as far as
:07:51. > :07:55.
:07:55. > :07:59.I can see in terms of them not been led to be ordained. To me, simply,
:07:59. > :08:04.if Jesus Christ embodied anything, he is about the quality of people.
:08:04. > :08:13.You do not have to be Catholic or Christian to know that you raison
:08:13. > :08:16.d'etre of being a Christian is love and another. You know that 40% of
:08:16. > :08:21.Catholics live in Latin America. The Catholic Church is very vibrant
:08:22. > :08:28.in Africa. The sight test for people there, not so much people
:08:28. > :08:33.like you, a lot of people say that Europeans and North Americans have
:08:33. > :08:37.too much leadership in the Catholic Church. Around half the cardinal's
:08:38. > :08:42.voting for the new Pope are European. Their views are different
:08:42. > :08:46.from euros when it comes to gay marriage. A Nigerian in the
:08:46. > :08:52.conflict so is that we do not want this. Peter Turkson said the same
:08:52. > :09:00.thing. Why should your few be accepted by the blast majority of
:09:00. > :09:10.Catholics? Who taught these people? Who taught the Africans to begin
:09:10. > :09:13.
:09:13. > :09:21.with? We followed the empire. We indoctrinated them. Not just
:09:21. > :09:24.homosexuality. There is a lot of homophobia. A does that give you
:09:24. > :09:28.the right to say to Catholics in Africa and Latin America, we
:09:28. > :09:36.brought this religion to you and we should tell you how it will
:09:36. > :09:41.develop? We have no right to dictate anything. But we have the
:09:41. > :09:47.duty to invite people to look at the gospel. We are followers of
:09:47. > :09:52.Christ or we are nothing. To say, for example, what did Jesus Christ
:09:52. > :09:58.say about gay marriage? Nothing. What did Jesus Christ say about
:09:58. > :10:04.contraception? Even a portion? want to see that debate. When
:10:05. > :10:08.Cardinal Keith O'Brien resigned, before he was resigned, when he was
:10:08. > :10:14.talking about marriage between demand and a woman, he said there
:10:14. > :10:17.was a time when priests got married. It could get dispensed again. He
:10:17. > :10:21.said he would be happy if others had the opportunity of considering
:10:21. > :10:31.whether this could get married and raised a family. Will that debate
:10:31. > :10:32.
:10:32. > :10:38.it reopened in the Catholic Church? it would be a good first step.
:10:38. > :10:47.and the ordination of women would cure a lot of the pathology around
:10:48. > :10:55.human sexuality in Roman Catholicism. We are obligated and
:10:55. > :11:00.we have confused and convoluted priesthood and celibacy. We have,
:11:00. > :11:07.as a result and consequence, a dialectic of sexuality that is
:11:07. > :11:15.dehumanising. Most people, women and men, do not have a vocation to
:11:15. > :11:21.celibacy, to sexual abstinence. They need to express themselves. In
:11:21. > :11:26.any marriage, gay or straight, the gentle love between people is only
:11:27. > :11:33.a small percentage of the humanisation of the information
:11:33. > :11:40.should. But because my fellow priests lack the love and intimacy
:11:40. > :11:45.that is necessary to be human, many of them unfortunately, as we have
:11:45. > :11:51.seen, with terrible consequences, mostly on children, engage in
:11:51. > :11:58.behaviour that is not only un- Christian, but totally inhuman.
:11:59. > :12:04.has to decouple any actions that would be im would be im
:12:04. > :12:10.adult priests and does towards priests who abuse children. That is
:12:10. > :12:16.a different matter. Your position is that if the Church embraces
:12:16. > :12:23.marriage of clergy, they would be more open to words gay marriage?
:12:23. > :12:27.would be more open towards all that is human and sexual. Do you not
:12:27. > :12:30.think that perhaps when cardinals and bishops speak out against
:12:30. > :12:37.homosexual relations, they are bound to do that with Catholic
:12:37. > :12:42.doctrine. But when you look at the ground, they are more tolerant. A
:12:42. > :12:48.German journalist back in the 90s went around Rome posing as a
:12:48. > :12:52.homosexual and talked to 70 priests. He spoke about speaking to young
:12:52. > :13:02.priests in gay bars, ostentatiously wearing go dog collars. The
:13:02. > :13:02.
:13:02. > :13:08.Catholic Church knows about it. Judge them by how they behave.
:13:08. > :13:15.proof of court is not what we say about God, but who we are. As a
:13:15. > :13:22.result of our belief in him, the human authenticity and the
:13:22. > :13:28.religious authenticity are always one. Does my belief in God and my
:13:28. > :13:33.forewing, my attempt to follow within the limitations of my own
:13:33. > :13:39.humanity, does that make me more human? Does that make me better
:13:39. > :13:44.able to relate to you as a woman? Better able to relate to him as a
:13:44. > :13:48.man? If not, forget about that. you except that the Catholic Church
:13:48. > :13:58.on the ground is more accepting of homosexual relations than we might
:13:58. > :14:08.think? You just said openly... I have been in Rome. I
:14:08. > :14:10.
:14:10. > :14:20.was sent to Rome. Former advocacy rights. I was exiled for one year.
:14:20. > :14:21.
:14:21. > :14:26.I met these priests. But the Catholic Church can accept and
:14:26. > :14:34.forgive any kind of sexual activity and cover it up. You were not
:14:34. > :14:39.forgiven. I was not forgiven. I am not about sexual activity. That is
:14:39. > :14:44.not what I'm talking about. I am talking about relational love. That
:14:44. > :14:50.is what the Catholic Church will not forgive. I can go to confession
:14:50. > :14:58.and confess that I was with 90 partners in the past three weeks. I
:14:58. > :15:08.can do it absolution. But I cannot go to confession and say to my
:15:08. > :15:26.
:15:26. > :15:31.priest, Father, I am living with a You became a priest during your
:15:31. > :15:39.mid-twenties. You went to New York and worked with sufferers of Aids.
:15:39. > :15:47.You were given support the by the Catholic community to do that work.
:15:47. > :15:54.In New York, the African missions. It is almost a church within the
:15:54. > :16:00.Church, my order, have been extraordinarily good and hopeful
:16:00. > :16:06.and empowering around my work. is an important organisation within
:16:06. > :16:15.the Catholic Church. It is under Rome and under the local bishop.
:16:15. > :16:18.What got me into trouble, was that young men with Aids in York in the
:16:18. > :16:24.1980s were being thrown out of jobs and apartments because they had
:16:24. > :16:29.Aids. I went to City Hall to advocate for a Bill on behalf of
:16:29. > :16:39.these men that I was working with they would protect them in their
:16:39. > :16:41.
:16:41. > :16:46.jobs and housing. The Cardinal was absolutely against it. That was the
:16:47. > :16:56.beginning of my falling into trouble with the Church. He did not
:16:56. > :17:02.approve of me safeguarding young gay men. They defrocked you? They
:17:02. > :17:07.took away my purse. I could no longer earn my living as a priest.
:17:07. > :17:12.That was my punishment for educating for housing and jobs for
:17:13. > :17:18.people with Aids. But he continued to work effectively as a priest
:17:18. > :17:28.although he did not have a licence? That is correct. I continue to work
:17:28. > :17:30.
:17:30. > :17:37.as a priest. Up till two years ago, with people with HIV and Aids dying.
:17:37. > :17:43.You moved back to London? I worked as a psychotherapist. I had to give
:17:44. > :17:50.them, what I had to give them was hope and some kind if Pope when
:17:50. > :17:57.people were dying. So young that they had not imagined their life,
:17:57. > :18:01.never mind the death. They needed some hope. Do you feel you
:18:01. > :18:08.understand the suffering of people more because the were, a practising
:18:08. > :18:12.Catholic, a devout Catholic, he decided at 17 when he did not know
:18:12. > :18:18.you were gay to become a priest, it must have been an awful realisation
:18:18. > :18:25.for you in your twenties that you were homosexuals in a church that
:18:25. > :18:35.condemned homosexual relations. Why did you stay in a church with that
:18:35. > :18:35.
:18:35. > :18:42.stand? Because I treasure my faith in God. And the teachings of Jesus
:18:42. > :18:49.Christ more than anything else in the world. When I had to face the
:18:49. > :18:55.deaths of so many of my friends from HIV and Aids, people 10 years
:18:55. > :19:00.younger than me, I was only in my duties, as I said, had nothing to
:19:00. > :19:09.give them but that fate. I could not prove to them anything but I
:19:09. > :19:15.could say, I do hope. Hope in got to me is like Santa Clause at a
:19:15. > :19:19.level without demeaning it. If you believe in Centre calls, he comes.
:19:19. > :19:27.If he believe in a loving God, something happens with your heart
:19:27. > :19:36.even if you are suffering and dying. Do you think now that Pope Benedict
:19:36. > :19:40.and cardinals have attended Vatican to, as Cardinal O'Connor has said
:19:40. > :19:45.in light of the Keith O'Brien resignation, the Catholic Church
:19:45. > :19:51.needs reform. It needs a Pope who will work in the collegiate fashion
:19:51. > :19:57.to try and bring in organisation. We have heard a lot about factional
:19:57. > :20:01.infighting in the Vatican under Pope Benedict. Is this a historic
:20:01. > :20:09.moment for the Catholic Church to try to be more consistent with what
:20:09. > :20:15.many people might say our 21st century values? I would love that.
:20:15. > :20:25.That would be got on earth if we had that. But just after speaking
:20:25. > :20:30.about hope I'm not very hopeful. Miracles are always possible, we
:20:30. > :20:37.did have a John the 23rd he bought in Vatican the third and surprised
:20:37. > :20:42.everyone. I've grown up in Ireland where to go into a Protestant
:20:42. > :20:47.church was a mortal sin. All that changed with the stroke of a pen.
:20:47. > :20:56.That is possible, but we have to be realistic, while we continue to
:20:56. > :21:02.pray and hope for a better day. DPP will have pointed to the cardinal's
:21:02. > :21:08.by Pope Benedict and by his predecessor are all people that I
:21:08. > :21:13.know of made in their own image and likeness. I hope I'm wrong. I hope
:21:13. > :21:17.they do get a probe that will lead us and the 21st century. Does that
:21:17. > :21:27.Pope need to draw a line over the sex abuse of children. That is
:21:27. > :21:31.still dogging several carnivals -- Khan -- heart malls, not
:21:31. > :21:35.implicating themselves but being criticised for not having acted
:21:35. > :21:41.quickly enough against abusing priests. That is still something
:21:41. > :21:48.dogging the church. The only way to draw a line on that in my opinion
:21:48. > :21:53.as a psychotherapist is to promote a healthy sexuality. You cannot
:21:53. > :22:00.promote that when everything from contraception to homosexuality is
:22:00. > :22:05.wrong. The only kind of sexuality that is available to Catholic
:22:05. > :22:10.people, lay and clerical, his sexuality for the procreation of
:22:10. > :22:15.children. That would suggest the new Pope would -- you would want is
:22:15. > :22:23.not the Pope from Africa. We know they have more conservative views.
:22:23. > :22:31.Who do you think, is there a name that springs to mind? You could
:22:31. > :22:38.bring somebody in like Archbishop Vincent Nichols. He is not a card
:22:38. > :22:47.nor yet? Is any body can be bought and. Possibly Father Timothy
:22:47. > :22:53.Radcliffe. What if we want a brown or Latin-American Pope? It would be
:22:53. > :23:03.wonderful to have someone who is non- European but someone who will
:23:03. > :23:03.
:23:03. > :23:13.again, promote asexual ethos that this psychologically sound.
:23:13. > :23:13.
:23:13. > :23:20.Optional celibacy. Willing priest would, contraception. You do not
:23:20. > :23:25.think Pope Benedict, will be an alternative sphere of interest to
:23:25. > :23:30.be asserting Conservative and Fulham's? I do not know that. I
:23:30. > :23:35.would be surprised if he did not. When the new pope was elected,
:23:35. > :23:42.depending on his stand on sexuality, would you stay in the Church
:23:42. > :23:49.regardless of who succeed Pope Benedict? I will die a Catholic.
:23:49. > :23:55.There is too much were it to be done, their 1200 million. I'm not