:00:13. > :00:15.until a new pope is elected. It is now time for HARDtalk.
:00:15. > :00:18.The conflict between Israelis and Palestinians arouses passions like
:00:18. > :00:21.few others. But on one thing most people can agree: that there's no
:00:21. > :00:24.prospect of the struggle ending anytime soon. So given the failure
:00:24. > :00:29.of the politicians and the diplomats, the militants and the
:00:29. > :00:37.liberals, what should we take from the words of the writer? AB
:00:37. > :00:42.Yehoshua is known as one of Israel's great men of letters. He
:00:42. > :00:48.has come to London to talk about his latest novel, seen by some as a
:00:48. > :00:51.powerful allegory of the journey that Israeli Jews must take. So can
:00:51. > :01:01.he chart a way through the quagmire? And why does he have such
:01:01. > :01:11.
:01:11. > :01:16.a low opinion of Jews outside AB Yehoshua, welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:16. > :01:25.Thank you. It may begin with a quote from your latest novel, 'The
:01:25. > :01:30.Retrospective'. Since you have realised that people try to seek a
:01:30. > :01:36.symbol behind every detail, you have learned to be tolerant of even
:01:37. > :01:43.allegorical speculation. In my allegorical speculation, is your
:01:43. > :01:47.book, 'The Retrospective', an allegory of the Israeli state?
:01:47. > :01:51.I do not think that this is the main subject of the book, the
:01:51. > :01:56.question of the Palestinians and the Israelis. I think that the book
:01:56. > :02:03.is dealing more with relationships between the West and the East in
:02:03. > :02:10.Israel and in between the to communities that form the
:02:11. > :02:20.population of Israel. Half that are coming from the Christian countries
:02:20. > :02:25.1/2 per the coming from Islamic countries. -- that are coming. The
:02:25. > :02:29.question is how to deal with the marriage between these two codes in
:02:29. > :02:32.order to do something protective and something new. Is this
:02:32. > :02:37.something that could have a resonance when it comes to the
:02:37. > :02:45.Israelis? It cord when it comes to the Israelis and Palestinians but I
:02:45. > :02:50.insist that this is not bat. In this society, there are many
:02:50. > :02:57.fragments that you can stick about how you can do consideration and
:02:57. > :03:02.how one, let us say class, fragment of the society joins to another. We
:03:02. > :03:10.are still struggling about what it is that he's an Israeli identity
:03:10. > :03:14.and how to shape it and how to make it work. It is a very good and
:03:14. > :03:19.important question. It is a rich question and one that I hope to
:03:19. > :03:25.explore with you. I'm just wondering, before we get on to that,
:03:25. > :03:29.just the very fact that I am asking you these questions, whether you
:03:30. > :03:37.feel as other great Israeli writers have spoken in the past, imprisoned
:03:37. > :03:40.by this idea that every time you put pen to paper, we on the outside
:03:40. > :03:44.ask what it has to do with the conflict. What are they saying,
:03:44. > :03:51.what lessons are they trying to teach us? Is it a burden orate
:03:51. > :03:57.privilege? E it is also a burden. You are putting us in a very narrow
:03:57. > :04:02.pattern. A very narrow road. I always speaking of the conflict.
:04:02. > :04:09.There are so many other problems. We're not the writers of problems
:04:09. > :04:14.for the writers of human conditions, of people, a psychology, and of all
:04:14. > :04:23.the other things. To push us almost all towards the corner of the
:04:23. > :04:30.conflict is to do unjust us to all of us. You all the talk a lot about
:04:30. > :04:35.the conflict. In his memoirs, another author talk about, with
:04:35. > :04:41.some pride, how he was taking in to have one-on-one conversations and
:04:41. > :04:48.heart hearts with Israeli PM's. There is a part of that must enjoy
:04:49. > :04:58.that? Know. Really? Not enjoy but it is useless. We had nothing to
:04:58. > :05:04.gain from speaking to the PM. It did not change him a bit. I can say
:05:04. > :05:09.quite clearly that it is better to go to another group of simple
:05:09. > :05:15.people and speak to them and to speak to journalists because the
:05:15. > :05:23.media is more influential -- is more influenced by writers then bpm
:05:23. > :05:29.and the power. Given the central role of literature in the history
:05:29. > :05:34.of the Jews, what you have to say matters, doesn't it? Zionism was
:05:34. > :05:41.created by writers. This is something very special. You cannot
:05:41. > :05:48.see another national movement that was created by such a writer. What
:05:48. > :05:56.is your profession? What is your identity? I say, a writer. You and
:05:56. > :06:00.others are on the left, politically. You will boycott the settlements
:06:00. > :06:06.and will not speak in the big settlements in the West Bank. How
:06:06. > :06:12.far do you think that your voice, though it may be recognised and
:06:12. > :06:20.even lionised abroad, is increasingly marginalised at home?
:06:20. > :06:27.On the one hand it is marginal, on the other hand... You're doing and
:06:27. > :06:31.are -- and unjust us too many others. You're talking about the
:06:31. > :06:36.three big names. Yes because we are the big names but there are many
:06:36. > :06:44.others who are important may have done very serious work. I think
:06:44. > :06:53.that it is not that we have changed public opinion but I would describe
:06:53. > :07:03.it in a metaphor. We were the drops of oil on the turning on the wheels
:07:03. > :07:04.
:07:04. > :07:10.of reality, of the history and we had been doing this movement of the
:07:10. > :07:14.difficult wheels of reality. say the wheels of reality but the
:07:14. > :07:18.true fears that it is that the Right to is in power and it is
:07:18. > :07:24.growing in power, not just politically but when you think of
:07:24. > :07:30.the institutions in Israel, the army, the judiciary - why is the
:07:30. > :07:36.left failing Israel? Not so much. First, the right wing has
:07:36. > :07:41.recognised the solution and the majority of the right-wing was
:07:41. > :07:47.repeating it just recently. The two-state solution. What progress
:07:47. > :07:54.has been made? The first have to recognise the concept of a two-
:07:54. > :07:58.state solution. This is by itself an advantage. 20 or 30 years ago,
:07:58. > :08:03.we could not speak of a two-state solution. They may take you back to
:08:03. > :08:06.the original question which is - why is the left so marginalised?
:08:07. > :08:12.Speak to any Israeli and they will say that the Left has collapsed.
:08:12. > :08:16.Why is that? They will say that the left as Clerk of the problem is not
:08:16. > :08:26.that the Left has collapsed but that the ideas of the Lapps are
:08:26. > :08:29.
:08:29. > :08:34.collapsing. -- left. In the Vietnam War, you'll say and -- but the
:08:34. > :08:39.right wing with the generals lips this the hippies were protesting
:08:39. > :08:44.and were right and finally managed to convince the right. Do not
:08:44. > :08:49.forget that the Palestinians did not make it easy for us. For about
:08:49. > :08:53.30 years after the Six Days War, the Palestinians said that they
:08:53. > :08:58.would never recognise Israel. Hamas said that they would never
:08:58. > :09:03.recognise Israel. Only in 1988 did the first movement of the
:09:03. > :09:12.Palestinians say that we are ready to have a two-state solution.
:09:12. > :09:17.me ask you about her mask. A few years ago, you said, and it was not
:09:17. > :09:27.a popular view, now is the time to talk to Hamas. Do you still believe
:09:27. > :09:30.
:09:30. > :09:35.that? Yes. They are now a separate entity. They are not terrorists,
:09:35. > :09:39.they are not enemies. We are doing a confusion by sticking terrorists
:09:39. > :09:46.to the beginning of everything. They are enemies. They are
:09:46. > :09:50.determined enemies. If they want to come to a ceasefire with us, an
:09:50. > :09:56.honourable and respected that ceasefire between us and them, then
:09:56. > :09:58.we have to negotiate. We have to do it. He may say that there is logic
:09:58. > :10:02.behind it but in terms of where it is in the spectrum of Israeli
:10:03. > :10:08.politics, it is outside the mainstream. One of the mainstream
:10:08. > :10:12.views -- one of the views that you had which is directly in the
:10:12. > :10:21.mainstream and a bit of a myth is that when Israel withdrew its
:10:21. > :10:26.settlers back in 2005, it left Gaza as a sort of pristine, producing a
:10:26. > :10:36.poor, a place that could become a territory of boundless
:10:36. > :10:42.possibilities. -- proto-Singapore. But it was still a miserable and
:10:42. > :10:47.occupied a place. The Israelis are still can -- retained control.
:10:47. > :10:54.have an open border. That an open border to Egypt. A bad border was
:10:54. > :11:01.sealed by Egypt -- that border. On all other sides, Israel controlled
:11:01. > :11:05.movement. They were our enemies. You can argue the reasoning for it
:11:05. > :11:14.but I'm just saying that it was a myth to say that it was no longer
:11:14. > :11:20.occupied. This is an enemy. After they withdrew -- after we withdrew,
:11:20. > :11:30.we withdrew from Gaza without any... That is not true. Take the UN
:11:30. > :11:31.
:11:31. > :11:34.report from a few months ago. The blockade imposed by Israel
:11:34. > :11:39.intensified the closure plight since the early 1990s. It is a
:11:39. > :11:42.denial of basic human rights in contravention of international law
:11:42. > :11:49.and amounts to collective punishment. That is the UN saying
:11:49. > :11:57.that you have not withdrawn. Gaza there were that settlements so
:11:57. > :12:07.there were Jews living there. This was a bad thing. One of the most
:12:07. > :12:15.vicious of things that we have done. To put settlements there and
:12:15. > :12:24.produce 1.5 million refugees. Israel was defeated. This is the
:12:24. > :12:28.main thing. After they withdrew from Gaza, come the Governor said
:12:28. > :12:33.that there would governing themselves and have you will become
:12:33. > :12:40.like Singapore. Take money from companies and invest and built.
:12:40. > :12:48.Instead they continued to hail missiles upon Israel and put one
:12:48. > :12:56.million people in shelters. This is the situation. What we have to do
:12:56. > :13:02.is say to them, now they have more sophisticated missiles from Iran in
:13:02. > :13:08.order to hit a Tel Aviv. They had hit Tel Aviv. They are showing how
:13:08. > :13:18.cities. One million people have no reason to do it. They are free.
:13:18. > :13:23.There is not one Israeli soldier in Gaza. When we are in a state of war,
:13:23. > :13:28.a total state of war, we do not have any responsibilities to our
:13:28. > :13:34.enemy. And now for the first time, we see very clearly that they can
:13:34. > :13:39.control the fire. For three months, they were not shooting any more.
:13:39. > :13:49.Were they have shot, it was done by their own will and not become
:13:49. > :13:59.
:13:59. > :14:05.How long does Israel have to continue its existence as a state?
:14:05. > :14:12.It depends on many things. It depends on a piece with the
:14:12. > :14:17.Palestinians. I do not say that by being in peace with the
:14:17. > :14:21.Palestinians, to finish the occupation of the West Bank and
:14:21. > :14:28.coming to terms with the Palestinians, I do not know if Iran
:14:28. > :14:32.and Afghanistan and Iraq will cease to say we will have to keep the
:14:32. > :14:40.Jews out of Palestine but at least, with the Palestinians we can come
:14:40. > :14:46.to terms. Sorry to interrupt. If that does not happen, if there is
:14:46. > :14:55.no two-state solution - how long do you think Israel has? I do not know
:14:55. > :15:03.how long. You see, Zionism have to fight against the Jewish people.
:15:03. > :15:12.They do not want a stake. Zionism was done by the very small minority
:15:12. > :15:18.- 2%, 3%. If the Jewish people will come to his round, they could now
:15:18. > :15:22.be a state of 10 million. From the Holocaust, at least 2 million
:15:22. > :15:29.people that could have come before the Second World War. The Jewish
:15:29. > :15:35.people did not believe in a Zionism and Zionism was saving at least on
:15:35. > :15:42.the ground, and the 300,000 Jews they were living before the Second
:15:42. > :15:48.World War and were saved by the gas chambers by are these scientists.
:15:48. > :15:53.By Israel. It is interesting to hear talk about the Holocaust. It
:15:53. > :15:57.is an area which has caused perhaps the greatest amount of controversy.
:15:57. > :16:05.You have said recently, I have never heard the Jews analyse the
:16:05. > :16:09.Holocaust as a Jewish failure. course. When people here that, they
:16:09. > :16:19.also here overtones of culpability. We're not responsible for the
:16:19. > :16:20.
:16:20. > :16:26.Holocaust. The fate we were living for 2,000 years, without seeing the
:16:26. > :16:32.pathological relationship between Jews and their environment, when
:16:32. > :16:37.there were problems, when there were the Crusades, when there was
:16:37. > :16:44.all the time anti-Semitism, the expulsion from Italy and France,
:16:44. > :16:51.from Britain. All the red lights had been a glittering for years and
:16:51. > :16:56.the Jews did not understand that they had to finish the diaspora. If
:16:56. > :17:02.they would from the beginning had said enough of diaspora, try and be
:17:02. > :17:07.in a man and territory, like all other people, if the Jews would
:17:07. > :17:17.have believed in that, I believe far more many Jews would have
:17:17. > :17:22.turned to another thing. You wrote in a book review about the
:17:22. > :17:26.Holocaust, were Israel cease to exist, were a bomb dropped on it,
:17:26. > :17:35.you would find scant consolation in Jews continuing their existence in
:17:35. > :17:42.far flung pockets around the world. Israel is my identity. It is my
:17:42. > :17:50.skin. It is my jacket. I cannot change it. Jews from Poland,
:17:50. > :17:55.England, America... This is my skin. You compare the Jewish identity
:17:55. > :17:59.among diaspora and Jews have to a Checa, a garment which they take on
:17:59. > :18:09.and off whereas you say you're Jewish identity as an Israeli is
:18:09. > :18:14.your skin. Listen, another quiet, partial Jews while I am a complete
:18:14. > :18:19.due - Israel is the authentic did concept of a Jewish people. Do you
:18:19. > :18:26.understand why that causes offence? They do not understand, after 2,000
:18:26. > :18:33.years of one type of Jewish identity, sitting in the
:18:33. > :18:39.environment of non-Jews. Those thousands of years of exile had
:18:39. > :18:44.given birth to what we now know as Jewish religion, Jewish religion,
:18:44. > :18:50.Jewish culture - that counts for nothing? For me the question is
:18:50. > :18:56.identity. Of course it is part of the identity that this is not the
:18:56. > :19:02.identity itself. Define a Jewish identity in Israel? The Jewish
:19:02. > :19:08.identity today is the 10,000 more questions that we have to deal with
:19:08. > :19:13.every day. The creation of a hospital, the creation of a prison,
:19:13. > :19:20.the decision to go to war or not to go to war. Those a national
:19:20. > :19:24.questions why is a Jewish? This is a Jewish question! Building a
:19:24. > :19:29.hospital? This is a question of a human being dealing with all
:19:29. > :19:35.aspects of life. The Daily questions of life but they're not
:19:35. > :19:40.Jewish values per se? Bay are values! The fact that police are
:19:40. > :19:46.going in the state without pistol, this is a British value and the way
:19:46. > :19:50.in which you are beholden to each other, the way you are conducting
:19:50. > :19:57.your foreign policy - this is Britain. You cannot say that
:19:57. > :20:02.Britain is Sammy Shakespeare and Milton. Of course, the way you do
:20:02. > :20:09.those things is the same thing for ours. The execution, the decision,
:20:09. > :20:13.the foreign policy, the economic decisions. Juries and is not only
:20:13. > :20:18.in a marginal way. This is the majority of life. And we are
:20:18. > :20:24.returning to life. Why I find particularly interesting about your
:20:24. > :20:31.view on this, and your relationship with the diaspora, is not that you
:20:31. > :20:37.together that you almost the diaspora as a threat. The said in a
:20:37. > :20:44.recent interview, at the name of up-country and the land of Israel
:20:44. > :20:49.it is about a matter we must defend against a Jewish offensive.
:20:49. > :20:54.Jewish offensive that when you ask me why you do not believe that
:20:54. > :21:01.perhaps it will disappear, it will be disappearing because of diaspora.
:21:01. > :21:05.It is an option for many Israelis to say, it is hard here, there is
:21:05. > :21:11.the Palestinians, there is terrorism, there is at the threat
:21:12. > :21:20.of Iran and Iraq, why can we not leave Israel and leave as a Jew in
:21:20. > :21:25.a committee here - in Britain, in America - this is the reason why I
:21:25. > :21:29.say a skin and not her jacket. Those in the diaspora, perhaps they
:21:29. > :21:33.have to work harder in the Jewish identity because they're not taking
:21:33. > :21:43.it for granted in North Tel Aviv for Jerusalem. They have to work
:21:43. > :21:49.harder but this is not a Jewish complete an complete andentity by
:21:49. > :21:52.going to the er Toro and doing some studies on the weekend. You cannot
:21:52. > :22:02.take Israel as different from all other nations in the world. We are
:22:02. > :22:05.
:22:05. > :22:15.like other nations. Except, Israel is the unique Jewish state. I'm
:22:15. > :22:15.
:22:15. > :22:22.wondering... And the Norway it is a Norwegian state. The 20% of the
:22:22. > :22:29.population... They are a national minority. In an interview with a
:22:29. > :22:37.British economic -- academic, he said of ute, Tom if this is wrong,
:22:37. > :22:43.he distinguishes between Israeli citizenship as opposed to Israeli
:22:44. > :22:51.identity. Is that correct? They have their own identity. They are
:22:51. > :22:57.Palestinian. If I said, as a Briton, that that Muslim, they drew, that
:22:57. > :23:04.black man, I have British citizenship but they have no
:23:04. > :23:09.British identity I would be called a racist. I have to heed them, how
:23:10. > :23:16.they are defining their identity. You will not define their identity,
:23:16. > :23:22.not by a - they will define their identity and when they say, we are
:23:22. > :23:26.Palestinian Israelis, having Israeli citizenship and we have to
:23:26. > :23:32.respect the citizenship in all sense of the word, and they are
:23:32. > :23:37.part of the Israeli society but at the same time, this is a national
:23:37. > :23:44.minority and I respect their identity. Can a return to your book,
:23:44. > :23:49.where we began. You said in a recent interview that with this
:23:49. > :23:52.book I tried to come to a conclusion of optimism, of
:23:52. > :24:01.reconciliation of compromise - a cannot permit myself to be
:24:01. > :24:06.pessimistic. Yes. Is that where you feel you are? Off course. I become
:24:06. > :24:12.more and more violent in my optimism. But it is based on
:24:12. > :24:19.emotion rather than reason? It is what you do. It is how you acted in
:24:19. > :24:26.life. It is what I'm doing with my friends is to work very hard. So