0:00:02 > 0:00:06with the late Venezuelan leader Hugo Chavez.
0:00:09 > 0:00:14Welcome to the Miraflores presidential palace in Caracas
0:00:14 > 0:00:17and a special edition of HARDtalk.
0:00:17 > 0:00:20My guest is one of the most polarising leaders in
0:00:20 > 0:00:22the world today.
0:00:22 > 0:00:25President Hugo Chavez of Venezuela is committed to socialism
0:00:25 > 0:00:29and the anti-imperialist struggle.
0:00:29 > 0:00:32For decades Fidel Castro was the keeper of Latin America's
0:00:32 > 0:00:34revolutionary flames.
0:00:34 > 0:00:37Well, now it is Chavez.
0:00:37 > 0:00:40But are Venezuela's people beginning to tire of their firebrand
0:00:40 > 0:00:43President?
0:00:59 > 0:01:03President Hugo Chavez, welcome to HARDtalk.
0:01:03 > 0:01:11Thank you very much.
0:01:11 > 0:01:15I want to begin by asking you about the Venezuelan economy.
0:01:15 > 0:01:20You have a serious problem with inflation.
0:01:20 > 0:01:23You have a currency that has been devalued and your country
0:01:23 > 0:01:25is still in recession.
0:01:25 > 0:01:31Is it fair to say that socialism right now is not working?
0:01:51 > 0:01:52You had growth.
0:01:52 > 0:01:54But now you do not have growth.
0:01:54 > 0:01:57You're the only Latin American country that this year,
0:01:57 > 0:02:01as well as last year, is not growing at all and is in recession.
0:02:01 > 0:02:03Is it possible, you say it's possible, to have some form
0:02:40 > 0:02:43Is it possible, you say it's possible, to have some form
0:02:43 > 0:02:46of capitalism with in a socialist system.
0:02:46 > 0:02:49Is it possible to have genuine democracy and respect for the rule
0:02:49 > 0:03:59of law within your socialist system?
0:04:00 > 0:04:02You are absolutely right that you have won elections,
0:04:02 > 0:04:07and you have won them very easily.
0:04:07 > 0:04:09But democracy is more than about just winning elections.
0:04:09 > 0:04:13Can I put one case to you that suggests you perhaps do not adhere
0:04:13 > 0:04:15to the wider rule of law and the independence
0:04:15 > 0:04:19of the judiciary.
0:04:19 > 0:04:22Let me mention the case here, a judge in Venezuela,
0:04:22 > 0:04:24Maria Afiuni.
0:04:24 > 0:04:29She made a decision to release a man who you regarded as...
0:04:29 > 0:04:33As a corrupt opponent of your regime.
0:04:33 > 0:04:36But the fact was the judge decided after two years in detention
0:04:36 > 0:04:40she followed the law and she released him from detention.
0:04:40 > 0:04:45You then made a speech in which you said her actions had
0:04:46 > 0:04:48been worse than those of an assassin.
0:04:49 > 0:04:51You demanded she be put in jail for 30 years,
0:04:51 > 0:04:53and she is currently in a prison.
0:04:53 > 0:04:56What does that say about your respect for the independence
0:04:56 > 0:05:00of the judiciary?
0:06:17 > 0:06:19But many independent observers look at what you have done,
0:06:19 > 0:06:22in that case and others, and have concluded, and I'm quoting
0:06:22 > 0:06:25the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights, "The political
0:06:25 > 0:06:27system in Venezuela is fundamentally undermined by the lack
0:06:27 > 0:06:34of judicial independence."
0:07:04 > 0:07:06But Mr President, there are many different international groups...
0:07:06 > 0:07:08Latin American groups, who have questioned your commitment
0:07:08 > 0:07:20to the rule of law.
0:07:20 > 0:07:22When Human Rights Watch wrote a report about this subject
0:07:22 > 0:07:25you threw out the two people that wrote the report.
0:07:25 > 0:07:28It seems whenever people are critical of your record
0:07:28 > 0:07:29you do not accept it.
0:07:29 > 0:07:32You said that you would not listen to the Inter-American Commission
0:07:32 > 0:07:36on Human Rights, you said they had no credibility.
0:07:36 > 0:07:39Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, other
0:07:39 > 0:07:42Latin American organisations have said you do not respect
0:07:42 > 0:07:45the rule of law.
0:07:45 > 0:07:49But when you hear the criticism you react against the critics.
0:07:50 > 0:07:53You threw out two of the people from Human Rights Watch who wrote
0:07:53 > 0:07:56a report about you.
0:09:05 > 0:09:10It is difficult to have a credible opposition in this country,
0:09:10 > 0:09:13and I'm sure you agree opposition is a big part of democracy,
0:09:13 > 0:09:17if when an opponent becomes a very loud critic you lock them up.
0:09:17 > 0:09:21It's very difficult then to be in opposition.
0:09:28 > 0:09:32Yes, of course.
0:09:32 > 0:09:39There are some people...
0:09:40 > 0:09:45But the point is there are many people who can't insult
0:09:45 > 0:09:49you on the TV because they're in prison.
0:09:49 > 0:09:54For example, Raul Baduel, he used to be a very good colleague
0:09:54 > 0:09:56of yours, he used to be your defence minister.
0:09:56 > 0:09:59But when he became a critic of yours and joined the opposition
0:09:59 > 0:10:05you had him locked up.
0:10:16 > 0:10:19I know that but you only decided he was corrupt when he became
0:10:19 > 0:10:24an opponent of yours.
0:11:14 > 0:11:24There are many examples...
0:11:24 > 0:11:35You say give me examples...
0:11:35 > 0:11:38We obviously could go through every example,
0:11:38 > 0:11:42Mr President, but one more example...
0:11:42 > 0:11:45Let's talk about one more example, the former presidential candidate,
0:11:45 > 0:11:48Oswaldo Alvarez Paz, you have now charged him as well.
0:11:48 > 0:11:51He is another leading opponent of yours and he is also
0:11:51 > 0:12:02now facing charges.
0:12:02 > 0:12:03I've been used.
0:12:03 > 0:12:05How have I been used?
0:12:05 > 0:12:20How have I been used?
0:12:20 > 0:12:23I sense your frustration that you feel that you're misunderstood
0:12:23 > 0:12:32in the world beyond Venezuela and Latin America.
0:12:32 > 0:12:43I want to ask you about some of your international policies,
0:12:43 > 0:12:45your policies looking outward beyond Venezuela's borders.
0:12:45 > 0:12:49In the last decade it's fair to say you have made a lot of headlines
0:12:49 > 0:12:51with your powerful criticism of the United States,
0:12:51 > 0:12:53of US imperialism, and George W Bush in particular.
0:12:53 > 0:12:57But Bush is gone, he left the picture more than a year ago.
0:12:57 > 0:12:59President Obama is now President of the United States.
0:12:59 > 0:14:07Do you now see a very different United States?
0:14:09 > 0:14:11What signals do you see right now?
0:14:11 > 0:14:15Do you see signals that would lead you to still use
0:14:15 > 0:14:16the word 'imperialism?'
0:14:16 > 0:14:19Do you still see imperialism coming out of Washington?
0:14:19 > 0:14:22Are you determined to do what you can to undermine it
0:14:22 > 0:14:24and to destroy it?
0:15:20 > 0:15:23Can I take it from your answer that your axis of unity
0:15:23 > 0:15:27with Iran will continue?
0:15:27 > 0:15:33In the past, you have said that you will be with the Iranians.
0:15:33 > 0:15:37You said that to President Ahmadinejad in 2006.
0:15:37 > 0:15:40Do you stand by those words?
0:16:21 > 0:16:23You have a very deep relationship with Iran.
0:16:23 > 0:16:27Trade, military intelligence, there are many aspects
0:16:27 > 0:16:28to the relationship.
0:16:28 > 0:16:34Are you saying you will ignore any new sanctions?
0:17:10 > 0:17:15Does that mean if the Iranians want to trade uranium with you,
0:17:15 > 0:17:21you would be prepared to do that?
0:18:35 > 0:18:39Before we finish, I want to ask you about your view of Latin America
0:18:39 > 0:18:41and South America's future.
0:18:41 > 0:18:50You have been a beacon and a leader for many countries in this region.
0:18:50 > 0:18:54They have adopted many of the same socialist ideas.
0:18:54 > 0:18:56South America is divided.
0:18:56 > 0:19:02There are other countries, Colombia, Chile, that do not share your vision
0:19:02 > 0:19:06of where South America should go.
0:19:06 > 0:19:09You have talked about the Grand Union for South America.
0:19:09 > 0:19:12You have spoken about having a common currency, maybe even
0:19:12 > 0:19:15a common government.
0:19:15 > 0:19:18Do you believe it can happen?
0:19:36 > 0:19:37It is not happening with Colombia.
0:19:37 > 0:19:40Not so long ago, your troops were gathering on the border
0:19:40 > 0:19:44as though war was a possibility.
0:20:29 > 0:20:30A final point.
0:20:31 > 0:20:35Many people have likened you to Fidel Castro.
0:20:35 > 0:20:38You have now become the carrier of the torch for the socialist
0:20:38 > 0:20:41revolution in Latin America.
0:20:41 > 0:20:45Fidel Castro built his revolution over 40 years.
0:20:45 > 0:20:49How long will it take you to build yours?
0:21:45 > 0:21:51So you will definitely run again in 2012?
0:21:51 > 0:21:53You can now, you have removed the term limits.
0:21:53 > 0:21:56You are determined to keep running for President.
0:23:19 > 0:23:24President Hugo Chavez, thank you for coming on HARDtalk.
0:23:49 > 0:23:50Hello.
0:23:50 > 0:23:54This is the shape of things to come rather than what we saw for many,
0:23:54 > 0:23:58at least, during the course of Sunday, which was a decent enough
0:23:58 > 0:23:59day for many.