:00:14. > :00:20.humanity and ethnic cleansing. Time for HARDtalk.
:00:20. > :00:27.Welcome to Washington DC. The US is a nation built by immigrants but
:00:27. > :00:31.immigration is also an issue that has created deep divisions. As the
:00:31. > :00:37.US Congress prepares to debate a plan to offer a pathway to
:00:37. > :00:42.citizenship to millions of illegal immigrants, America's Conservatives
:00:42. > :00:47.face a question. I have a ready to embrace their country's new
:00:47. > :00:57.demographic reality? -- are they ready? My guest today is Carlos
:00:57. > :01:04.
:01:04. > :01:14.Slim terriers -- Carlos Gutierrez, a former Republican Secretary of
:01:14. > :01:30.
:01:30. > :01:36.Commerce. America is changing fast. Why is it that Latinos in the US
:01:36. > :01:42.seem so turned off by the Republican Party? The party fell
:01:42. > :01:46.into the trap of reading polls in a very literal way. If you poll
:01:46. > :01:51.Latinos and you ask what their main concerns are, they will say the
:01:51. > :01:55.economy, education, healthcare. Immigration would be number five or
:01:55. > :02:01.number six. Republicans took that to mean that immigration is not
:02:01. > :02:06.important to Latinos. That they can therefore do things on immigration?
:02:06. > :02:14.They took a hard line because it was not an issue among US citizens
:02:14. > :02:20.who happen to be Latinos, Hispanic Americans. The problem is that they
:02:20. > :02:25.may agree with your tax policy but in the end, if you want to deport
:02:25. > :02:31.more grandmother -- their grandmother, they will not support
:02:31. > :02:35.you. The mood was that the party did not support immigrants. We lost
:02:35. > :02:40.the Asian-American vote by a bigger margin than the Hispanic American
:02:40. > :02:45.vote. It seems that Asians were also getting that body language and
:02:45. > :02:48.rhetoric that the GOP is anti- immigration, which I find to be a
:02:48. > :02:53.tremendous contradiction, a strategic contradiction, because we
:02:53. > :03:00.are supposed to be the party of prosperity. What was it like being
:03:00. > :03:04.one of Mitt Romney's che point men for outreach to the letting the
:03:04. > :03:08.community and then see your own candidate, Mitt Romney, declare at
:03:08. > :03:13.one point that he believed illegal aliens, and he meant mainly
:03:13. > :03:18.Hispanics who are currently inside the US, should, to use his words,
:03:18. > :03:22.self deport and get themselves out of their? It was frustrating. He
:03:22. > :03:30.said that during the primary and I came inevitably it after that and I
:03:30. > :03:35.found myself essentially defending or in dispelling that comment. Even
:03:35. > :03:38.though he moved to the centre, he evolved and started talking about
:03:38. > :03:44.reform in his first year, I was still answering questions about
:03:44. > :03:48.self deportation on the day of the election. If I had to pick one of
:03:48. > :03:53.several things that affected his campaign, it was that. I wish to be
:03:53. > :03:57.polite about this but it has to be said that you failed. Your job was
:03:57. > :04:04.to try to ameliorate some of the damage with the Hispanic community
:04:04. > :04:09.for your party. If we look at the result, 70% of Latinos voted for
:04:09. > :04:17.Barack Obama. Yes. I accept responsibility. I would say that we
:04:17. > :04:22.failed miserably. And I would go back to that comment. Self
:04:22. > :04:27.deportation. Whoever suggested that, whoever advised him of that should
:04:27. > :04:34.know that this probably cost him the election. Let me ask a blunt
:04:34. > :04:41.question. Would you acknowledge that there is still racism in the
:04:41. > :04:50.Republican Party? I do not know. That is a very low did sort of a
:04:50. > :04:55.situation of a question. I really do not know whether it is a stance
:04:55. > :05:02.of anti illegal immigration, which I suppose we can understand, we can
:05:02. > :05:09.debate, you can have it both ways. Or is it and the immigration
:05:09. > :05:13.period? Is it anti- immigrant? And that is where the Newlands is.
:05:13. > :05:17.you have a fear that it might be in certain quarters - I am only
:05:17. > :05:23.suggesting in small corners of the Republican party conservative
:05:23. > :05:29.movement - but in those quarters, are you concerned that there is a
:05:29. > :05:35.basic anti-immigrant feeling? I fear that there are some members
:05:35. > :05:45.of the party who are anti- immigration, which is so flawed if
:05:45. > :05:46.
:05:47. > :05:51.we are the party of economic growth. It would betray any knowledge of
:05:51. > :05:55.how the economy works to the anti- immigrant. I also sink there are
:05:56. > :06:03.some in the party who do not like the idea of illegal immigrants.
:06:03. > :06:07.Thirdly refer you to a situation in the US that coloured the last
:06:07. > :06:09.election. That is what was happening in Arizona, when a bunch
:06:10. > :06:13.of committed Conservative politicians drove through
:06:13. > :06:18.legislation in the state legislature, which many have
:06:18. > :06:24.described as the most draconian crackdown on immigrants and
:06:24. > :06:32.immigration the US has ever seen. Again, how damaging was that to the
:06:32. > :06:37.Republican Party, nationally? whole thing. Arizona, Alabama, the
:06:37. > :06:46.comment last week from the representative who said wetbacks. A
:06:46. > :06:52.comment that another representative made four years ago, who said, why
:06:52. > :06:59.don't we electrify that friends? Those things drive me crazy. What
:06:59. > :07:04.do you do about it? We have to call them out and not be quiet about it.
:07:05. > :07:08.We have this Cibber pack. What is that, we can explain to people
:07:08. > :07:12.around the world that it is a powerful committee in Washington
:07:12. > :07:17.with the Congress behind it, that is designed to lobby and change and
:07:17. > :07:22.reframe the debate. If in simple terms, it is the exercise of
:07:22. > :07:27.freedom of speech. And unlimited amounts of money, if you can raise
:07:27. > :07:32.it. Republicans who want to support immigration reform, and there are
:07:32. > :07:36.many of them, I concerned not about a Democrat challenge, they are not
:07:36. > :07:41.worried about that, they are worried about a primary challenger
:07:41. > :07:48.from the right wing. What we want to do is go in and support them and
:07:48. > :07:51.go up against the candidate from the right. You are defending, if I
:07:51. > :07:56.can put it to the names of individuals, people like Lindsay
:07:56. > :08:00.Graham, John McCain... In fact we have run an ad in South Carolina in
:08:00. > :08:03.support of these people. Because these are supposedly moderate
:08:03. > :08:09.Republicans on this issue of immigration who stand to get shot
:08:09. > :08:16.down by, if I can put it this way, the far right inside your own
:08:16. > :08:20.political party. You are being very frank about what you see as the
:08:20. > :08:30.problems in Europe and party. Why do you bother staying with the
:08:30. > :08:30.
:08:30. > :08:35.party? I was born in Cuba. I have a fear of anything that goes to the
:08:35. > :08:38.left because I know where the far left ends up. (LAUGHS). We are not
:08:38. > :08:41.suggesting you want to go to the far left, we are suggesting that
:08:41. > :08:45.you might consider opposition in a party where you have frankly
:08:45. > :08:50.acknowledged that there are many voices you find personally
:08:50. > :08:54.offensive. I would rather try to be part of the change because I
:08:54. > :08:58.believe in the core of the party and the core is free enterprise,
:08:58. > :09:03.low taxation, less intrusive government. All of those things
:09:03. > :09:07.that I believe passionately in. know, both of us, that something
:09:07. > :09:12.very important has happened over the last few days in Washington. On
:09:12. > :09:18.Capitol Hill, there is a bipartisan proposal for massive immigration
:09:18. > :09:24.reform, the biggest reform of a generation. It would provide a
:09:24. > :09:33.pathway for to citizenship for 11 million have also currently illegal
:09:33. > :09:39.for a UN document and immigrants. Will it pass? It has the best
:09:39. > :09:44.chance of passing that we have ever had since 1986. I was part of the
:09:44. > :09:48.2006 bill that failed. It failed because the Democrats shot it down.
:09:48. > :09:54.I want to be frank. Harry Reid called the Bill. Senator Kennedy,
:09:54. > :09:59.who was part of them, Senator Kennedy, Senator Carr Island
:09:59. > :10:04.Senator McCain, he gained Harry Reid to keep that Bill alive for 24
:10:04. > :10:10.hours. That was all we needed to get the votes to hold it. Some of
:10:10. > :10:16.the poison pill amendments designed to overthrow the grand bargain, two
:10:16. > :10:23.of them were introduced by Senator Barack Obama. This is a very
:10:23. > :10:27.political topics -- topic and my interpretation of events is that
:10:27. > :10:33.they did not want to risk that it be a Republican President, George W
:10:33. > :10:38.Bush, who took the credit for this. That, with respect, was then, and
:10:38. > :10:43.this is now. I wonder if you believe your own party is prepared
:10:43. > :10:47.to allow this new reform measure to pass. Because there are voices on
:10:47. > :10:52.the Republican side who are saying that they will use what you call
:10:52. > :11:02.the poison pill unmanned drones, the time-wasting tactics, to try to
:11:02. > :11:04.
:11:04. > :11:09.kill this immigration reform. -- the poison pill, the time-wasting
:11:09. > :11:13.tactics. I do think there are enough Republicans. How big a fight
:11:13. > :11:19.are you prepared to have with his voices inside your party? We have
:11:19. > :11:24.to go all the way. We believe in the party, we believe in the
:11:24. > :11:28.principles and we have got to take these folks on. The Democrats very
:11:28. > :11:33.cleverly used someone like Stephen came as the spokesperson for the
:11:33. > :11:37.Republican Party. He does not speak for me and he does not speak for a
:11:37. > :11:42.lot of Republicans. Let me turn this argument around. If this deal
:11:42. > :11:45.goes through, if the bipartisan package that has been mooted goes
:11:45. > :11:51.through, it will tell illegal immigrants that there is a chance
:11:51. > :11:54.to get a green card and then to get citizenship. But it will take up to
:11:54. > :12:00.13 years or more for them to actually naturalise and become
:12:00. > :12:05.citizens. It will cost them $2,000 in fines and fees. They will have
:12:05. > :12:11.to go through an increase drugs -- incredibly rigorously process of
:12:11. > :12:17.background checks. That is why it is not an amnesty. Is that
:12:17. > :12:23.acceptable? Yes. My story is it will be 14 years to get citizenship
:12:23. > :12:30.for my wife and son. Because of various quirks in the law. I was a
:12:30. > :12:39.naturalised citizen. Your wife is from? Mexico and my son was born in
:12:39. > :12:44.Mexico. I had to be you ten years from the date... I understand the
:12:45. > :12:52.angst of an immigrant. It is every single day. Will I get it? Will
:12:52. > :12:56.line not? Will I be separated from my family? The bill we had in 2006
:12:56. > :13:00.was similar. One thing we have always agreed is in the spirit of
:13:00. > :13:05.fairness, let us not allow people who are undocumented to cut into
:13:05. > :13:10.the line of people who are waiting to come in. That is something that
:13:10. > :13:16.most people agree to. Citizenship is something of a red herring
:13:16. > :13:21.because I think what the UN document it person would want is to
:13:21. > :13:28.be allowed to be legal tomorrow, let me go home and leave my house
:13:28. > :13:35.and know I will come back and see my family. Citizenship tends to the
:13:35. > :13:38.an explosive political issue. I think if we'd hold a undocumented
:13:38. > :13:42.persons in this country and asked if they would rather we kill this
:13:42. > :13:49.bill because citizenship may take 15 years, but you will get legal
:13:49. > :13:52.status very soon, what would you rather do? I think we would see an
:13:52. > :13:57.overwhelming vote saying just please legalese -- legalise my
:13:57. > :14:05.status. In 1986 under President Reagan's so cold and misty, and the
:14:05. > :14:10.41% sought citizenship. -- so- called amnesty. Right now, there is
:14:10. > :14:13.a to beat about Marco Rubio, the senator from Florida, the darling
:14:13. > :14:17.of the Tea Party, but a man whom many in the Republican Party
:14:17. > :14:27.believe could deliver in much better, stronger direction to
:14:27. > :14:34.
:14:34. > :14:40.Latinos across this country. Is it Surely the party needs to do more
:14:40. > :14:44.than that. I have respect for Marco. He is clearly a year for the future.
:14:44. > :14:50.But you are right. It is not as simple as that. We have to be
:14:50. > :14:55.visible. We have to be in these communities. We have to give
:14:55. > :15:02.tutorials on how to start a small business. Republican values. My
:15:02. > :15:07.fear is... You cannot penetrate the party. Take one example. In Texas,
:15:07. > :15:10.38% of the electorate is already Latino. In Republican grouping, in
:15:11. > :15:18.the house, do you know how many are too knows they are? In the Texas
:15:19. > :15:25.House? 3.3 out of 95. We have more in the National House. It is
:15:25. > :15:31.amazing. That is your problem.We need to engage. This is not going
:15:31. > :15:36.to happen next year. I would like to say a goal. We have to go out to
:15:36. > :15:41.get 50% of the Hispanic vote by 2020. What do we need to do to get
:15:41. > :15:47.there? I think our core message of economic opportunity of upward
:15:47. > :15:53.mobility will be to government dependence any day. We need to be
:15:53. > :15:58.there to explain. We needed to convey that they are welcome. Right
:15:58. > :16:05.now, we -- they feel like we don't welcome them because people make a
:16:05. > :16:11.great estate month. One final set of thoughts about this. The
:16:11. > :16:21.demographic of America high extraordinary. It is believed by
:16:21. > :16:25.2050, they could be as many as 130 million Latinos in America. Close
:16:25. > :16:30.to half a billion. An extraordinary number. How will that change
:16:30. > :16:36.America? I think that the interesting thing about America is
:16:36. > :16:41.that of those people will probably be changed more than the country.
:16:41. > :16:48.That is the magic of this place. The people come here and become
:16:48. > :16:53.Americans. What worries me is keeping them isolated. Been clear
:16:53. > :16:59.to know only communities. This is where I blame the Democrats. --
:16:59. > :17:04.Latino. They say, let me register you for will fair and 4 cents. They
:17:04. > :17:09.never get out of there. -- voodoo stems. They never get off the
:17:09. > :17:15.dependence. Is human nature. If you have a burden at hand, why risk
:17:16. > :17:21.getting a job? One final thought on this. You have an extraordinary
:17:21. > :17:26.life story. He moved from Cuba to the US as a EMI. You sold frosted
:17:26. > :17:31.flakes from the back of a truck in Mexico City. Year ended up running
:17:32. > :17:37.the entire company. Kellogg's, a company will all know. It strikes
:17:37. > :17:41.me that when you look at the US today, and you look at all of the
:17:41. > :17:46.potential and dynamism in countries like Mexico and Brazil, it may be
:17:46. > :17:51.that your grandchildren will make the reverse move. They may find
:17:51. > :17:56.economic opportunities in the western hemisphere lies to the
:17:56. > :18:02.south. Not in the US. We may be ultimately talking about beginnings
:18:02. > :18:07.of a reverse. Reverse migration. Is that true? There might be some of
:18:07. > :18:13.that. The future is about a circularity. Which is why the
:18:13. > :18:17.discussion of citizenship always being the endgame, may not be the
:18:17. > :18:22.case for 30 years from now. I think what you may find his people who
:18:22. > :18:26.come to work for two years and go back home, or someone from the US
:18:26. > :18:32.goes to Mexico for a couple of years then comes back to the US.
:18:32. > :18:35.All about circularity, having better skills, seeing ourselves as
:18:35. > :18:40.a region to be more competitive against the rest of the world. That
:18:40. > :18:44.is very much about the future. We should be seen Bilateral
:18:44. > :18:47.immigration agreements instead of bilateral, or in addition to
:18:47. > :18:54.bilateral trade agreements. There is no question that Mexican women
:18:54. > :19:01.have seven children on average in 1970. 2010, it is 2.4 children.
:19:01. > :19:08.There will be a time when we don't have Mexican immigration. What the
:19:08. > :19:13.people miss is that we can't not grey. I'll give you an anecdote. --
:19:13. > :19:18.cannot. I was talking to an owner of three restaurants the other day.
:19:18. > :19:22.He said he would have paid if I had the Labor. That is a microcosm of
:19:22. > :19:28.what is happening throughout the country. We would be growing faster,
:19:29. > :19:34.creating more jobs for American citizens. This is where I want to
:19:34. > :19:38.switch focus to other issues facing your Republican Party. You wear be,
:19:39. > :19:45.Secretary took George W Bush. You were a senior voice. The challenge,
:19:45. > :19:52.leaving aside wigeon out to the minorities, is also on the economy.
:19:52. > :19:56.-- reaching a side. A Republican pollster said, Obama beat raw meat
:19:56. > :20:01.by 11 points on a question of who would do more to help the middle
:20:02. > :20:08.class. -- Mitt Romney. Republicans were not and are not deemed to be
:20:08. > :20:13.the party of the middle class. That is the party's biggest obstacle.
:20:13. > :20:17.There is no question that is one of the party's problems. There was a
:20:17. > :20:22.specific situation where you had someone who was personally very
:20:22. > :20:26.rich. He had the President exploiting that very cleverly.
:20:26. > :20:31.was simply telling the truth. Telling the American public that
:20:31. > :20:36.Mitt Romney and the party defended maintaining tax cuts to the richest
:20:36. > :20:42.1% of Americans. It was not defending tax cuts but more that
:20:42. > :20:47.you cannot tax 1% of the population in order to fix up the deficit.
:20:47. > :20:53.Packs and small businesses is a bad idea. Either way, I found it very
:20:53. > :20:59.ironic that the President's tax rate was up 18 food hall -- 18.4 %
:20:59. > :21:04.which was what he was criticising Mitt Romney force. There is
:21:04. > :21:09.demagoguery. It works and politics unfortunately. You have entered the
:21:09. > :21:14.fray in an internal party debate. This is what was said by a former
:21:14. > :21:20.speechwriter for George W Bush. He said we have to learn from what
:21:20. > :21:25.happened in 2012. We crank out moderate views up the moderate
:21:25. > :21:30.Noosa. Bob Dole, John McCain, Mitt Romney. We cannot take anymore
:21:30. > :21:35.moderate losers. He clearly is arguing for a much more convicted -
:21:35. > :21:43.- conviction based right wing Conservative Republican leader.
:21:43. > :21:51.Will that work? No. I believe this country is a centre right country,
:21:51. > :22:00.or a centre left country. But the American voter rejects extremes.
:22:00. > :22:06.What Obama's Magic has been is that I believe he is an extreme leftist.
:22:06. > :22:12.But people believe he is a pragmatist. The American public
:22:12. > :22:19.does not see Obama as extreme leftist. No, they don't. I believe
:22:19. > :22:27.that we will look back in a few years and look at the state of the
:22:27. > :22:30.economy and to realise that these leftist policies did not work.
:22:30. > :22:36.want to and do this but asking a question which on the specifics of
:22:36. > :22:41.the immigration debate asked him in the beginning, which is, how hard
:22:41. > :22:45.are you prepared to fight for the sole of your party? Right now, he
:22:45. > :22:53.has a window of a couple of years to give -- redefine what the
:22:53. > :22:59.Republican party is all about. How brittle will that be? -- brutal. We
:22:59. > :23:05.have to do what it takes. We have to speak up and get into the fight.
:23:05. > :23:10.We have to call people out. There are so many Republicans but I have
:23:10. > :23:15.run into who will say, why did we stick to who we are, which is
:23:15. > :23:22.really, prosperity, the economic call. Let us stop whacking our
:23:22. > :23:30.finger at people. Let us. Be known for what we are against. Let people
:23:30. > :23:35.know us for what we are for. I believe that after eight years of
:23:35. > :23:41.the economic policies, people would be ready for change. We have not