:00:04. > :00:14.second attack in three days. -- outskirts of Damascus.
:00:14. > :00:15.
:00:15. > :00:20.Now it is time for HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk. South Africa
:00:21. > :00:27.has been told by the old colonial power, Britain, that it does not
:00:27. > :00:31.need development aid any more. Recently, they attended a summit of
:00:31. > :00:37.economic powers. Growth has slowed. Black South Africans are much more
:00:37. > :00:41.likely to be unemployed than their white compatriots. The finance
:00:41. > :00:45.minister has a national plan to raise more people out of poverty by
:00:45. > :00:49.making the economy grow. He wants to counter negative perceptions
:00:49. > :00:59.which has gearing of foreign investors. The ANC are facing an
:00:59. > :01:03.election. It's union comrades are no longer paying ball. Has the
:01:03. > :01:13.country Britain once described as Africa's economic powerhouse
:01:13. > :01:31.
:01:31. > :01:36.Pravin Gordhan, welcome to HARDtalk. The thank you. As finance minister,
:01:36. > :01:42.how worried argue that negative perceptions are taking cold. I have
:01:42. > :01:46.spent --? I have spent most of this week in the UK meeting investors
:01:46. > :01:51.who have been supporting South African debt and buying our bonds
:01:51. > :01:56.for many years. New people are interested. Many others have an
:01:56. > :02:01.interest in the South African economy. What I have met is quite
:02:01. > :02:05.contrary to your introduction. I have met a positive sentiment
:02:05. > :02:10.towards South Africa, particularly more generally. I have met with
:02:10. > :02:16.critical questions, people asking if I can do better in some
:02:16. > :02:21.departments. I'll take the message back to the Government. Generally,
:02:21. > :02:26.there is an understanding that we are a 19-year-old democracy, a
:02:26. > :02:33.teenager, and the world tends to forget that we only had a
:02:33. > :02:40.democratic elections in the 20s and a fable, 1994. There is -- 27th
:02:40. > :02:44.April. There is an understanding that South Africa is very much at
:02:44. > :02:48.the centre of the growth story of the future on the African continent.
:02:48. > :02:52.Democracy might still be a teenager, perhaps that is why it is
:02:52. > :02:57.displaying the tantrums associated with a teenager. The strikes at be
:02:57. > :03:00.sought through the summer and the autumn had damaged the coalition in
:03:01. > :03:07.South Africa. He said that yourself. It has created out in a certain
:03:07. > :03:12.type of investor. How do you answer this? I have met many of the senior
:03:12. > :03:17.people who are heads or cheer people of companies who have
:03:17. > :03:23.invested billions in South Africa. -- chairman. They will do that
:03:23. > :03:28.again. It happened regrettably at Marikana. The government is dealing
:03:28. > :03:32.with it. We're trying to get to the bottom what went wrong and who
:03:32. > :03:36.should be held responsible. When the judge has completed his inquiry,
:03:36. > :03:41.he will give us some answers to that question. Secondly, we have
:03:41. > :03:45.made huge efforts as government and as business and labour to sit
:03:45. > :03:48.around the table and to understand the common challenges that all of
:03:48. > :03:52.us have and the deficiencies we might have demonstrated in the
:03:52. > :03:57.lead-up to that particular period. We are beginning to answer
:03:57. > :04:00.questions. What do we do about housing? How do we tackle the ill-
:04:00. > :04:05.effects of a migrant labour system? How do we keep more people employed
:04:05. > :04:11.and unemployed at this point and time? How do we return minds to
:04:11. > :04:16.production in a climate, by the way, that is not just related to South
:04:16. > :04:20.Africa but, global, demand for mineral products is at a low.
:04:20. > :04:24.is partly because China is suffering and it is a big customer
:04:24. > :04:28.of the minerals such you provide. What is striking, if you look at
:04:28. > :04:33.figures from last to October from the Trade and Development
:04:33. > :04:39.conference, foreign investment into said that figure has SPD's to 43 %
:04:39. > :04:42.decline compared to the same period. -- foreign investment into South
:04:42. > :04:47.Africa has experienced. You will tell us there has been a recovery
:04:47. > :04:51.but it has been from a low level. That suggests that, coupled with
:04:51. > :04:56.growth figures, South Africa is facing a much harsher environment
:04:56. > :05:02.than it has experienced in recent years. We don't feel embattled in
:05:02. > :05:06.any way. We feel confident. We have taken a few knocks. Most countries
:05:06. > :05:12.around the world have had negative impacts from outside their own
:05:12. > :05:18.country or from within from time to time. Britain is no exception. We
:05:18. > :05:23.have tremendous resilience, bought in the business sector and more
:05:23. > :05:29.generally to overcome these problems. We have global
:05:29. > :05:33.circumstances were corporates are hanging on to cash. That is
:05:33. > :05:38.happening in South Africa also. Former colonial powers and the
:05:38. > :05:42.European Continent are involved. Development has a negative impact
:05:42. > :05:48.on South Africa and South African sentiment as well. At the same time,
:05:48. > :05:56.as you pointed out, we have a national development plan. I have
:05:56. > :06:00.to provide the money. Everyone else has to do the work. That plan is
:06:00. > :06:04.rallying a great deal of support from all quarters. There are a few
:06:04. > :06:11.exceptions which I will come too. We are optimistic that we have the
:06:11. > :06:14.right path for the next 20 years. We have a fantastic Continent. We
:06:14. > :06:18.have new relationships to embolden us and encourage us. We have some
:06:18. > :06:23.of our own challenges that we have to overcome. I am determined to do
:06:23. > :06:28.that. Let me ask you about those international relationships. You
:06:28. > :06:32.mentioned Britain. A different view from what you have told me came
:06:32. > :06:36.with the announcement in different is that Britain will end the
:06:36. > :06:40.development aid it provides to South Africa. The International
:06:40. > :06:44.Development Secretary told a conference in London won 30th April,
:06:44. > :06:48.that is the British Secretary, has it that figure had made tremendous
:06:48. > :06:52.progress and he has agreed with his counterparts in South Africa that
:06:52. > :06:57.so that figure can fund its own development. You must have been
:06:57. > :07:02.pleased. -- that South Africa can fund. Not at all. That statement
:07:02. > :07:06.came from nowhere. I said at the time that it was a misleading
:07:06. > :07:12.statement. I have always spoken to her once before on the telephone
:07:12. > :07:16.from Cape Town to London. No figure in my discussions with her did I
:07:16. > :07:20.say that I agree that we can cope with our own development challenges.
:07:20. > :07:25.-- nowhere. The original discussions started with Andrew
:07:25. > :07:31.Mitchell. He was the former secretary. He explained in July
:07:31. > :07:35.last year that there is a different tack. He and I had a very cordial
:07:35. > :07:39.relationship and a mutually respectful one. I said to him that
:07:39. > :07:43.we noted that the Government had made a different decision. I would
:07:43. > :07:48.like to debate. We had a partial debate on the question of
:07:48. > :07:53.development challenges in South Africa. Many charities including
:07:53. > :07:59.Oxfam have pointed this out. South Africa is a mixed society. There is
:07:59. > :08:04.a developed part. There's lots of for to do on education, health, HIV
:08:04. > :08:08.and Aids. -- There is lot of work. �98 million does not make a huge
:08:08. > :08:13.difference to us. What is important is what type of relationship we
:08:13. > :08:17.want to continue. That is interesting. He goes back to the
:08:17. > :08:25.perception of reality to the outside world. You say the reality
:08:25. > :08:29.is different to the perception. That is a dilemma for you. If you
:08:29. > :08:33.are country where, for example, flush toilets is a bit of a
:08:33. > :08:39.ludicrous sounding example, but an important one in terms of hygiene
:08:39. > :08:43.and self-respect, only 57 % of the population habit compared to 50 %
:08:43. > :08:47.ten years before. That kind of trajectory, that incremental
:08:47. > :08:55.improvement in people's lives is nowhere near the level of
:08:55. > :09:03.expectation. How do you deal with that gap? Let's look at the facts.
:09:03. > :09:10.We are looking at results from the 2011 census. The per capita income
:09:10. > :09:18.in 1994 17,000, we are now at about 37,000 rand per person. If you look
:09:18. > :09:27.at employment numbers, they are higher. Tax revenue, not donations,
:09:27. > :09:33.just over 100 billion rand in 1994, 810-812 billion last year. If you
:09:33. > :09:38.look at water access in committees, over 80 %. In the city, 85 %.
:09:38. > :09:43.Schooling is of a 95 % access. Health facilities, a tremendous
:09:43. > :09:48.increase in access. Flush toilets might be the slight exception. They
:09:48. > :09:56.are not possible in the deep rural areas. Affair. Mac.We will get
:09:56. > :10:00.there. -- a fair point. That may put something to you. And old
:10:00. > :10:06.colleague and friend and fellow campaigner against apartheid and
:10:06. > :10:10.the former minister for education, he said to me that he was
:10:10. > :10:14.astonished how poor black South Africans have been with -- out-
:10:14. > :10:20.patient the poor black South Africans have been the province. --
:10:20. > :10:26.how patient. You have disparities in percentages between white and
:10:26. > :10:31.black South Africans. In nearly 20 years, RUC and that progress is
:10:31. > :10:37.satisfactory and you are on the right trajectory? -- Are you
:10:37. > :10:41.saying? If you look at 1994, 18 administrations of Health. 13 % of
:10:41. > :10:45.the land is in the hand of the majority. Very little of the
:10:45. > :10:51.economy was in the hands of black people at that point and time.
:10:51. > :10:55.There has been terrific progress. We had to take the opportunities
:10:55. > :10:59.that are available to us to make greater impact. We must improve the
:10:59. > :11:03.quality of the outcomes of some of the spending that we are doing. We
:11:04. > :11:07.consider ourselves. We are very frank in South Africa. We are very
:11:08. > :11:12.straightforward. Read the diagnostic of the development plan.
:11:12. > :11:15.It will tell you and the world what we think our problems are and it
:11:15. > :11:20.will tell you how we intend to deal with them. You mentioned Marikana
:11:20. > :11:24.at the start of the interview. Those terrible scenes and the
:11:24. > :11:28.deaths of 34 miners' shot dead by police but a novice last year. More
:11:28. > :11:36.recently, we have seen pictures of Vanguards burning because of
:11:36. > :11:39.industrial action by agricultural workers. As vineyards. There are
:11:39. > :11:43.strikes with transport unions. The unions have cause to question what
:11:43. > :11:49.has been achieved and whether or not fair shares are happening in
:11:49. > :11:56.South Africa. On the one hand, yes. On the other hand, no. If you look
:11:56. > :12:00.at the numbers, and increased since 1994 until now. -- an increase.
:12:00. > :12:06.There are sectors of the economy were the distribution of benefits
:12:06. > :12:10.and is to be different. Secondly, and this is now a global debate
:12:10. > :12:14.that many politicians will share the sentiment, inequality is a
:12:14. > :12:20.challenge that all societies have. We certainly have it in South
:12:20. > :12:26.Africa. In a context when CEOs walk away with massive salaries come up
:12:26. > :12:34.workers have a fair case to say "why much we have such a gap?" Du
:12:34. > :12:38.Bee Gees need to be higher? We to be productive. -- do wages need.
:12:38. > :12:44.Employers and employees need to sit down together and work out what is
:12:44. > :12:48.the bible wage. They are, aren't they? -- viable. There must be a
:12:48. > :12:53.framework in which they can do it. It is difficult to sit back and
:12:53. > :13:03.watch some of these figures. metal workers and transport workers
:13:03. > :13:09.are after 18 %. The truckers could 8.5 %. Terrible since last year and
:13:09. > :13:16.the mines. Public sector workers have settled for 7% between now won
:13:16. > :13:20.2015. The transport workers' union secretary worked in the -- and all
:13:20. > :13:24.that the current strike said that all they wanted was a living wage.
:13:24. > :13:28.For many South Africans at the bottom, they do not feel they are
:13:28. > :13:31.getting it. You national plan is about growing the economy. That is
:13:31. > :13:35.proving harder and harder, giving what is happening in the world.
:13:35. > :13:45.Others say you should not be growing the economy but
:13:45. > :13:51.
:13:51. > :13:57.redistributing the considerable To day, not of the expenditure is
:13:57. > :14:00.spent on the social wage, education, health, social housing and
:14:00. > :14:04.assistance. But the agreements reached between employers and
:14:05. > :14:08.employees can't if employers think that is an us -- a sustainable way
:14:08. > :14:15.to move forward, that is the agreement... But they might feel
:14:15. > :14:18.they are being blackmailed. They've will still do week in the context
:14:18. > :14:24.of the labour relations system within a democratic society.
:14:24. > :14:29.are standing back? Not cattle. We brought the partners together, like
:14:29. > :14:34.I said. -- not at all. In the mining sector, everybody around the
:14:34. > :14:39.table, that violence is not acceptable. Talking is acceptable
:14:39. > :14:45.and necessary. Find your answers by talking together. What do you say
:14:45. > :14:49.in response to the chief executive whose boatie The Financial Times.
:14:49. > :14:53.He says the waiters are more than inflation and more than
:14:53. > :14:59.productivity. He says productivity has declined, Hardy sustain your
:14:59. > :15:03.business in that sense? That is the charge that he has. He has to work
:15:03. > :15:08.together with the unions and find a viable way forward, where workers
:15:08. > :15:12.feel they are getting their fair share of the benefits of running...
:15:12. > :15:17.Operating that business and he feels he is getting a fair share
:15:17. > :15:19.for the shareholders. Do you share the view of the Governor of the
:15:19. > :15:23.Central Bank of South Africa, that the country is not matching the
:15:23. > :15:29.growth of emerging markets? Absolutely. We have a potential
:15:29. > :15:34.growth of about 3.5%. In the national development plan, we said
:15:34. > :15:40.we need to grow at 5% on a sustainable basis, probably over 20
:15:41. > :15:46.years. If we succeed, we can cut unemployment by half, down to about
:15:46. > :15:49.14%. It's a big if.Life does not operate without ambition and
:15:49. > :15:54.aspiration and hard work. We are committed to do the hard work
:15:54. > :15:59.necessary to get to the level of growth. Without social partners.
:15:59. > :16:02.She said those comments about not keeping up with equivalent
:16:02. > :16:06.economies at the annual conference of the metal workers' union. She
:16:06. > :16:09.took the message straight to them and said low growth was self-
:16:09. > :16:14.inflicted. The implication of that being that industrial action had
:16:14. > :16:19.some part to play. I wonder if the ANC's relationship with the unions
:16:19. > :16:24.prevents you from being as planned? I think we are blunt. We are blunt
:16:24. > :16:29.when it comes to expressing to the unions and the South African public.
:16:29. > :16:32.For example, that the recession has cost us a lot in revenue. That the
:16:32. > :16:36.continued lack of recovery in Europe is having a significant
:16:36. > :16:43.impact upon us. That the revenue picture is not as good as we would
:16:43. > :16:48.like it to be. And therefore we have to move accordingly.
:16:48. > :16:54.industrial relations hats to recognise... Let me finish....You
:16:54. > :16:59.damage the prospects of the country. We have done well... We are talking
:16:59. > :17:04.about the figures. I am asking you about those remarks of self-
:17:04. > :17:09.inflicted wounds. I am asking if you are unable to be as blunt...
:17:09. > :17:13.am telling you how blood I am. me what you think of industrial
:17:13. > :17:17.action. Does it damage the prospects for the economy? At the
:17:17. > :17:23.finish what I was saying. I know you like to be aggressive but...
:17:23. > :17:27.am not trying to be aggressive. me finish my argument. He said, are
:17:27. > :17:32.we planned? I am saying to you that within government, with our social
:17:32. > :17:36.partners and with society more broadly, we have been very clear
:17:36. > :17:40.about what our expenditure is, how we need to manage that expenditure
:17:40. > :17:44.carefully, how we can ensure that debt does not become unbearable, as
:17:44. > :17:49.it is in many parts of Europe. Our fiscal management has a lot of
:17:49. > :17:53.lessons for your neighbourhood, if I may say so with respect. You may.
:17:53. > :17:58.You are welcome to send people over to us and we can show them how to
:17:58. > :18:02.do things differently and do things better. On industrial action, what
:18:02. > :18:08.is important, not just with the unions but also with business, as I
:18:08. > :18:12.have been doing this week... They take strike action. You can have an
:18:12. > :18:16.investment strike as well. It is to keep lines of communication open,
:18:16. > :18:20.explain to people what we are doing, listen to them carefully in terms
:18:20. > :18:24.of what they need. And where possible begin to meet their
:18:24. > :18:30.requirements. How will you persuade the unions? Some do not sound
:18:30. > :18:39.impressed by the plan. The general secretary of the metal workers'
:18:39. > :18:46.union said it's a monopoly will -- and there is inequality. He is an
:18:46. > :18:53.exception in terms of his views. Others have said the same. He is
:18:53. > :18:57.not isolated. Let me quote the President. He is not a union leader.
:18:57. > :19:03.He is the champion of the national development plan. He says we have a
:19:03. > :19:07.plan, we will implement it. We will look at any criticisms. In the
:19:07. > :19:13.meantime, we have a plan to carry on with implementation processes.
:19:13. > :19:21.It does not matter what they think, you will go on anyway? Here is any
:19:21. > :19:25.donation from the head of state, come and talk. -- and in that --
:19:25. > :19:28.invitation. One alternative with monopoly capital is to make it a
:19:29. > :19:38.nationalised monopoly, so that it answers to the needs of society,
:19:39. > :19:39.
:19:39. > :19:42.not profit. You said it all. Died because the ANC decided so. Why?We
:19:42. > :19:47.do not believe that is in the interest of the country at the
:19:47. > :19:51.moment. What could be the consequences of nationalism? It's a
:19:51. > :19:57.false debate. The real issue is how do we grow the economy, how do we
:19:57. > :20:01.create more jobs, how do we ensure that all people in the country
:20:02. > :20:06.benefit? And many of these challenges, as Ireland two weeks
:20:06. > :20:11.ago in Washington, a global. you worried there is a perception
:20:11. > :20:19.amongst some South Africans that the ANC government, in its 19th
:20:19. > :20:23.year, has lost touch? It has not. It is tremendously in touch. Its
:20:23. > :20:27.membership grows every day. Its structures are operational,
:20:27. > :20:31.leadership is in touch with people in all parts of the country. I just
:20:31. > :20:35.attended a workshop before coming here, where 400 delegates from
:20:35. > :20:39.throughout the country at the leadership level look at surveys of
:20:39. > :20:44.the ANC itself to inquire what do people think, what do they not like
:20:44. > :20:50.about us, what would they like us to do and we respond to that.
:20:50. > :20:54.give you an example. Last year this happened. The now Deputy President
:20:54. > :20:59.of the Union, famous as a campaigner and as a union man in
:20:59. > :21:06.the 80s. Before the end of apartheid. He became a non-
:21:06. > :21:10.executive director, has been successful in business. He said it
:21:10. > :21:14.was a mistake to put his hand up. He regrets it because it is an
:21:14. > :21:18.excessive price in this time of poverty. It was one of those
:21:18. > :21:22.moments when I was blind cited. That is the worry, that those
:21:22. > :21:27.moments become more frequent. a wonderful example. The system has
:21:27. > :21:31.become drawn in. A wonderful example of humility and the ability
:21:31. > :21:34.to be self-critical and to say that as a leader, no matter how
:21:35. > :21:40.experienced I am, I am willing to develop and learn and correct what
:21:40. > :21:44.I am doing. In that sense, we have a wonderful Deputy President of the
:21:44. > :21:47.ANC who is able to reflect on his own practices and say, I should
:21:47. > :21:52.have done it differently. There are many League -- not many readers
:21:52. > :21:56.like that around the world. should be reflected them, blunt as
:21:56. > :22:00.you said. Do you regret the pictures that appeared of the
:22:00. > :22:08.former president Nelson Mandela a few days ago, that have been highly
:22:08. > :22:12.could -- criticised, of him not being in the best of health? I have
:22:12. > :22:15.not seen those pictures. But all of us throughout the world and in
:22:15. > :22:19.South Africa have the highest regard for him. We all recognise
:22:19. > :22:24.that he is struggling with his health and we all recognise that he
:22:24. > :22:30.will be soon 95 years old and we invite the world to celebrate his
:22:30. > :22:34.95 years. Some in South Africa saw it as a rather crude piece of party
:22:34. > :22:43.politics. One newspaper said it is not as if they are above publicity
:22:43. > :22:52.stunts. It his trading off the name for the benefit of the party.
:22:52. > :22:57.is a cheap shot. Mandela is the ANC's Mandela, if you like. I am
:22:57. > :23:01.sure those who did have a particular view in mind, I am sure
:23:01. > :23:07.they are open to criticism if such criticism is valid. The tie was not
:23:07. > :23:12.there... I appreciate that.I am not able to address that. There was
:23:12. > :23:17.a lot of comment on social media from South Africa. One said he is
:23:17. > :23:22.treated like an animal at a zoo. That is just one way of looking at
:23:22. > :23:26.this. I think he is a great man whose service to South Africa and
:23:26. > :23:31.humanity is formidable. All of us should be very privileged that he
:23:31. > :23:35.has been in our midst. More importantly, at the head of what
:23:35. > :23:44.today is still regarded as one of the most important miracles of the