Zainab Bangura - UN Special Representative on Sexual Violence In Conflict

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:00:17. > :00:22.election is on Saturday. Welcome. For too long, horse have

:00:22. > :00:27.been waged on the bodies of women. That unflinching summary of a

:00:27. > :00:30.horrible truth come from my guest today, Zainab Bangura, the UN

:00:30. > :00:34.special Representative on Sexual Violence in Conflict. Over the past

:00:34. > :00:39.two decades, the list of war-torn countries were women and children

:00:39. > :00:44.have been subjected to systematic rape and sexual abuse has grown

:00:44. > :00:54.shamefully long, from Bosnia and the Democratic Republic of Congo,

:00:54. > :01:20.

:01:20. > :01:24.to Syria today. Can the most Zainab Bangura, welcome. Thank you.

:01:24. > :01:30.You lead the international effort to try to eliminate the sexual

:01:30. > :01:34.violence as a weapon of war. I wonder whether your own background,

:01:34. > :01:41.coming from Sierra Leone, sunk into violence for so many years, does

:01:41. > :01:46.that give you a coastal state in this? Thank you. During the

:01:46. > :01:53.difficult times in the conflict in Sierra Leone, I created an

:01:53. > :01:58.organisation. Fully documented atrocities of the war. I work with

:01:58. > :02:07.his special courts. I wrote the special Reports a forced marriage

:02:07. > :02:12.and testified as an expert witness. A work -- as a human rights

:02:12. > :02:18.activist, I saw the atrocities to the girls and women, and win in two

:02:18. > :02:26.police stations and hospitals. I witnessed it first hand. I felt it

:02:26. > :02:31.and cried. I can tell their story in the special courts. The back

:02:31. > :02:36.then, did you feel a sense of helplessness in the face of the

:02:36. > :02:42.scale of the problem? The UN thinks 60,000 women were raped during the

:02:42. > :02:47.decade of Sierra Leone's civil strife. The experience I went

:02:47. > :02:57.through his very difficult to tell, especially when I have to deal with

:02:57. > :02:59.

:02:59. > :03:04.my youngest victim, three years old. meeting girls, who were abandoned

:03:04. > :03:10.by parents, I met a young lady who lost her memory. She does not know

:03:10. > :03:15.who she is, where she comes from, nothing. The pressure was so much

:03:15. > :03:24.for her. The psychological impact of what happened to her... It

:03:24. > :03:28.blocked her entire memory. I met someone who had seven children from

:03:28. > :03:36.seven people. She had to survive with seven children. The story

:03:36. > :03:39.still haunts me as I go to Somalia or, Congo. I want to talk about

:03:39. > :03:45.some of the other contemporary situations that you are dealing

:03:45. > :03:51.with today. On this broad question, given the scale of the sexual

:03:51. > :03:57.violence, the rape as a weapon of war problem, should we see it as

:03:57. > :04:01.something that is inescapably part of warfare? Frankly, if one looks

:04:01. > :04:09.back at conflicts millennia and sentries ago, this was written

:04:09. > :04:15.about, it was a problem. Rape and violence against women was used as

:04:15. > :04:25.a weapon of war. It is the longest crime. I went to the Pentagon about

:04:25. > :04:29.

:04:29. > :04:35.two weeks ago. I was talking to do pity assistance. -- deputy. He

:04:35. > :04:38.poured forward an act by a Abraham Lincoln, where they mention sexual

:04:38. > :04:48.violence and the elections that should be taken by American forces

:04:48. > :04:49.

:04:49. > :04:55.to ensure that they are managed. It is a result of the Security Council

:04:55. > :05:00.resolution. In 2000, it actually became an international criminal

:05:00. > :05:06.crime. That is interesting. There has been a couple of specific UN

:05:06. > :05:11.Security Council resolutions defining rape and sexual violence

:05:11. > :05:15.as specific elements of war crimes and crimes against humanity, which

:05:15. > :05:21.can be taken to the international courts, including the ICC in The

:05:21. > :05:28.Hague. But the question is this, is her that really going to make a

:05:28. > :05:33.difference? I think it will send a message very clearly. What the ICC

:05:33. > :05:38.is doing, and the resolutions the security council has passed, they

:05:38. > :05:43.have created a global legal framework. We are actually engaging

:05:43. > :05:47.countries constructively. We have come to realise this is not just a

:05:47. > :05:53.do in issue. It actually belongs to member-state countries. The

:05:53. > :05:57.countries where these crimes are committed have the legal, moral,

:05:57. > :06:02.responsibilities to their citizens. They have that but it means nothing

:06:02. > :06:08.in so many cases. You mentioned the Democratic Republic of Congo for

:06:08. > :06:15.you spent the last few months. We still see today 40 or so women and

:06:15. > :06:17.children being raped in eastern DRC every single day. Despite all of

:06:17. > :06:23.the laws of the Security Council resolutions you have just talked

:06:23. > :06:28.about. Because he resolution is as good as when they are implemented.

:06:29. > :06:31.You cannot leave them on the decks of the Security Council. He has

:06:31. > :06:38.defied away when national governments will take the

:06:38. > :06:48.leadership, ownership and responsibility. I was able to come

:06:48. > :06:48.

:06:48. > :06:53.out to the D R C with agreements. We spelled out specifically what we

:06:53. > :07:02.would do. There is a law in the Beyonce. We have tried to get a

:07:02. > :07:09.strategy. -- Congo. We are engaging them. A piece of paper signed by

:07:09. > :07:12.government officials in Congo, when they and institutions, the army in

:07:12. > :07:18.police and baby the judiciary are actually a part of the problem, not

:07:18. > :07:22.the solution. He challenge is, if you do not work with them, you

:07:22. > :07:27.cannot and it. You have to hold them accountable and responsible,

:07:27. > :07:34.and a sure the police -- but how do you hold them accountable? By

:07:34. > :07:40.making them agree that it is a crime. In the Ivory Coast, it is a

:07:40. > :07:47.crime. You have to make sure the country has the legal framework to

:07:47. > :07:52.criminalise it. Once you can do that, you can work with the police.

:07:52. > :08:00.We went to Columbia. So much crime has be committed during the 50

:08:00. > :08:06.Years War in Colombia. The -- our experts had to work with the

:08:06. > :08:13.judiciary to bring it off the ladder to create a framework to

:08:13. > :08:17.criminalise it, change the penal code and train people. After the

:08:17. > :08:24.war, we were trying to make sure that people who committed a crime

:08:24. > :08:27.were prosecuted. We discovered all the judges who were trained were

:08:27. > :08:32.trained in the '60s. At the time, human rights was not part of the

:08:32. > :08:36.curriculum. They do not know how to prosecute the cases. You have to

:08:36. > :08:43.work with them to understand that this is a crime. In Sierra Leone,

:08:43. > :08:45.we have judges who are trade. We passed the sex offenders Act. The

:08:45. > :08:50.outright work with the international government in that

:08:50. > :08:56.way. You are relatively optimistic in some countries that is bearing

:08:56. > :09:00.fruit. You have also done something very striking. Your predecessor in

:09:00. > :09:05.this post, you have actually gone out there and who have talked to

:09:05. > :09:10.some of the militia groups, the soldiers and rebels who have been

:09:10. > :09:14.responsible for some of these terrible crimes. I just wonder,

:09:14. > :09:21.when you look these people in the eye, and do talk to them about what

:09:21. > :09:26.they have done, what is your feeling about them? How to change

:09:26. > :09:30.them. They are in the government forces. We need to make them

:09:30. > :09:36.realise that this is a crime. We have to berate to them the effects,

:09:36. > :09:41.the damage caused. Sexual violence is not a crime against a woman a

:09:41. > :09:46.crime against a family, against a community, a crime against a

:09:46. > :09:53.society. In Somalia, I make a man who had to that of his daughters

:09:53. > :09:57.raped. He was looking for justice. This old man that was almost in

:09:57. > :10:02.tears. Two of his daughters. That is what it is all about. I had to

:10:02. > :10:07.address this plan. Imagine those women were your daughters. I know

:10:07. > :10:12.how much you value your mother's. In the African environment, and

:10:12. > :10:18.mother is so important. She can either decide the girlfriend or why

:10:18. > :10:24.he will have. Imagine your mother being raped. How would you fuel?

:10:24. > :10:27.Imagine for yourself as the mother even of a baby, let alone a young

:10:27. > :10:32.girl who has been raped, and terribly abused, coming face to

:10:32. > :10:42.face with a perpetrator as you have done. I want to get a sense of what

:10:42. > :10:43.

:10:43. > :10:52.you think drives these perpetrators? When I came from the

:10:52. > :10:57.Congo, IT visited a local militia. It was led by somebody called

:10:57. > :11:02.Morgan. In that village, last year, they read 11 babies between the

:11:02. > :11:09.ages of six months took off months. 59 babies between the ages of one

:11:09. > :11:16.year. -- one year to three years. We were extremely shocked and

:11:16. > :11:22.wanted to find out what it is that drives people to do this thing. We

:11:22. > :11:32.came to the conclusion that it is part of the explanation we have a

:11:32. > :11:33.

:11:33. > :11:39.UN. What other way can you act? It is not accidental, it is

:11:39. > :11:43.premeditated and planned. Because the conflict that happens in Africa

:11:43. > :11:48.is complicated between communities, fighting for resources, trying to

:11:48. > :11:53.take power, so the best thing you can do is go after the vulnerable

:11:53. > :11:58.group off the opposition. So people go after the women and children who

:11:58. > :12:03.cannot protect themselves. They produce the next generation. Sexual

:12:03. > :12:08.violence is so dehumanising. It is so degrading. People who go through

:12:08. > :12:13.the trauma, it takes years for them to recover. That is what they do.

:12:13. > :12:19.They try to break the human spirit of younger people and the community.

:12:19. > :12:24.The fathers, husbands, brothers. is a difficult question for you.

:12:24. > :12:30.You mentioned the host of countries from your own Sierra Leone to

:12:30. > :12:36.Colombia to obviously the Congo. Afghanistan. Afghanistan and

:12:36. > :12:39.Somalia. So many. You have a staff that barely get into double figures.

:12:40. > :12:47.You travel the world and spread the message that something has to be

:12:47. > :12:53.done. Yet, the resources you can command frankly are pitiful.

:12:53. > :12:57.good thing about this is a couple of things. One, the fact that I am

:12:57. > :13:02.chair of the UN action against sexual violence, which brings

:13:02. > :13:06.together 14 UN entities. I chair that. They are part and parcel of

:13:06. > :13:14.the network of UN agencies that are working to address the problem,

:13:14. > :13:18.from UNICEF to other organisations. All of them. Sorry to interrupt but

:13:18. > :13:25.how much credibility does the UN have on the ground but the most

:13:25. > :13:32.visible face of the UN in Congo is UN peacekeepers. We both know that

:13:32. > :13:38.over years, hundreds, frankly, hundreds of those UN soldiers have

:13:38. > :13:45.been found guilty of their own sexual exploitative crimes against

:13:45. > :13:51.local people. How much credibility does the UN on the ground we have?

:13:51. > :13:54.We have to differentiate between UN civilian, the agencies like UNICEF,

:13:54. > :13:58.but like a understand that. thinking from the perspective of a

:13:58. > :14:04.local person. You are there to tell them the UN will be there for them,

:14:04. > :14:08.to protect them, offer them haven, bring the perpetrators to justice.

:14:08. > :14:12.Yet, a different branch of the UN wearing this famous helmet over

:14:12. > :14:16.many years have been found wanting in terms of their own commitment.

:14:16. > :14:21.If we go back to the UN's and peacekeeping, I'm sure you'll agree

:14:21. > :14:26.with me in terms of sexual and exploitation, which is not my

:14:26. > :14:30.career. It is something. With differently. They have done a lot

:14:30. > :14:36.to address the issue of ex -- sexual exploitation. The Secretary

:14:37. > :14:42.General is very concerned about this issue of sexual exploitation

:14:42. > :14:47.and he is taking very strong action. I can assure you that for now, the

:14:47. > :14:54.incident of sexual exploitation has reduced. I was in Liberia, and I

:14:54. > :14:58.remember. I was in the field. At the time, the incident was larger.

:14:58. > :15:03.The engagement between the countries and training given to

:15:03. > :15:07.troops before deployed, all of that ice actually helped to reduce the

:15:07. > :15:12.issue of sexual is potation considerably on the ground. They

:15:12. > :15:15.did have incidents. Access -- action has been taken. The

:15:15. > :15:25.Secretary General is engaging member states. People who commit

:15:25. > :15:29.

:15:29. > :15:36.these will be able to make sure Exterior, you spent some time in

:15:36. > :15:40.Africa. In Syria, according to UN reports and human rights are

:15:40. > :15:45.reports, women are suffering terribly from yew bows of sexual

:15:45. > :15:49.abuse and systematic rape. The question is simple. Giving the

:15:49. > :15:59.context, what is happening in Syria today, how on earth can you expect

:15:59. > :16:08.

:16:08. > :16:18.to deliver either protection to The challenge we haven't with Syria

:16:18. > :16:19.

:16:19. > :16:23.is we do not have accessibility. -- that we have with Syria. The

:16:23. > :16:27.government I have spoken to. We are working with governments in

:16:27. > :16:32.neighbouring countries. We're very concerned about the level of sexual

:16:32. > :16:39.violence taking place. We do not have numbers for two reasons - we

:16:39. > :16:46.have problems with people accessing services. Secondly, there is the

:16:46. > :16:55.problem of on a killing. The pride and their daughter, their sister,

:16:55. > :17:02.is killed... Kill the victim. Kill the victim in Syria? It is a

:17:02. > :17:07.problem we need to address. We need to visit the camps, to go to Jordan,

:17:07. > :17:11.Lebanon and to find or the possibility of going into Syria. We

:17:11. > :17:16.talk about the refugees in the cams. Nobody has been able to tell us

:17:16. > :17:20.what is happening in there -- with those women. Who is raping them,

:17:20. > :17:28.the numbers. We do not have any information inside Syria so we are

:17:29. > :17:33.trying to work as much information. It is another disturbing story and

:17:33. > :17:38.his entire conversation so far has been about states that are failing

:17:38. > :17:42.or have been badly broken by internal strife. I want to switch

:17:42. > :17:48.the conversation a little bit. I am aware that I can tap into your

:17:48. > :17:53.experience not just as a UN person but as somebody who has been a

:17:53. > :17:59.leader in your own country, Sierra Leone. It went through 11 years of

:17:59. > :18:04.terrible civil war any in 2002. He then became a minister - Foreign

:18:04. > :18:09.Minister, health minister. In the end, you can talk about the UN and

:18:09. > :18:13.outside help and involvement that isn't it the truth that a broken

:18:13. > :18:19.Guam Sierra Leone can only really be fixed from within? To some

:18:19. > :18:24.extent. Because I can tell you that when the war ended or almost at the

:18:24. > :18:31.end of the war, one of the things we had lost in Sierra Leone and we

:18:31. > :18:34.just have seen in Somali, is institutional memory. You cannot

:18:34. > :18:39.reinstate a country in a state in which it was before the conflict

:18:39. > :18:46.because when you go back to look, it is that very state that caused

:18:46. > :18:54.the conflict. Celia had many use of a dictatorship. Our country it was

:18:54. > :18:59.destroyed. -- Shearer Leeanne. There is not a function in

:18:59. > :19:03.Parliament. Civil society does not have a voice, the opposition has no

:19:03. > :19:08.opposition. You need to go back to the drawing board. Which is while

:19:08. > :19:11.we were very happy with the issue as a poor widow from the UK. We had

:19:11. > :19:17.the British inspector-general of police because there is no-one in

:19:17. > :19:22.the police to could remember the Minister of politicians cannot

:19:22. > :19:26.order to arrest some of the opposition who said something

:19:26. > :19:33.against all the media who said something against them. He brings

:19:33. > :19:40.the prisoner ankles of President and asks him what shall I do? --

:19:40. > :19:44.and asks the President. I see the institutional problems but I am

:19:45. > :19:50.wanting to focus on something in particular - how do you get over

:19:50. > :19:54.the gender inequality in a country where it is a male-dominated

:19:54. > :19:57.society. You were, for example health minister but if I look at

:19:57. > :20:04.the stats on key measures, healthcare for mothers, infant

:20:04. > :20:07.mortality rates, goals in education, frankly, Sierra Leone in the year

:20:07. > :20:11.since the end of the war, has not really delivered in the way that

:20:12. > :20:16.you must have hoped and I wonder why that is? Because just like any

:20:16. > :20:21.other institution, the entire structure has been destroyed There

:20:21. > :20:27.are very systematic problems they need to address. For example, in

:20:27. > :20:33.the case of Sierra Leone, we had 1,900 health facilities and so we

:20:33. > :20:37.do not have enough infrastructure to attend to the population. During

:20:37. > :20:42.complex, the population tends to get much younger to because people

:20:42. > :20:46.produce more children. Secondly, you do not have the human resources.

:20:46. > :20:49.It takes that used to train a doctor. We have about three or

:20:49. > :20:55.colleges, four physicians, one paediatrician, the medical staff

:20:55. > :21:00.are in need... A lot of the staff in Sierra Lianne had let. Even if

:21:00. > :21:05.you are building infrastructure, you do not have the staff. The

:21:05. > :21:11.distribution of drug is a second issue. We have to work with UNICEF

:21:12. > :21:17.now, I signed an agreement, they will take over the issue. But, with

:21:17. > :21:21.respect, you are describing again institutional problems. I'm

:21:21. > :21:25.interested in the gender issue. And I tell you why. The track it

:21:25. > :21:30.strikes me there is one particular single issue which you could have

:21:30. > :21:35.addressed as health minister and you did not - female genital

:21:35. > :21:39.mutilation which is very widespread in Sierra Leone. 90% of women have

:21:39. > :21:45.under Gahan this particular procedure. You, in a very frank

:21:45. > :21:51.interview in 2005, described psychological effect - the real

:21:51. > :21:58.damaging effect it had on you but as health minister you do not

:21:58. > :22:01.address it. It comes under social welfare. It is not a gender issue.

:22:02. > :22:11.There you are one of the most powerful women in the country...

:22:11. > :22:19.(UNKNOWN SPEAKER), I was a campaigner. -- no. I campaigned

:22:19. > :22:27.against genital mutilation. I was stunned in some communities. Stein?

:22:27. > :22:33.Yes, they threw me out. It is the men themselves. Now, things have

:22:33. > :22:36.changed. The reality now, our generation do not send their

:22:36. > :22:44.children for the operation. I can tell you that. The figures it

:22:44. > :22:47.seemed to suggest they do. It is true. Because of your UN

:22:47. > :22:52.responsibility, you are not in politics in your country right now

:22:52. > :22:57.but you are still seen as one of the most influential women in their

:22:57. > :23:02.country. Is your message to your country they need to address that

:23:02. > :23:06.one particular issue - female genital mutilation - to send a

:23:06. > :23:15.signal about the rebalancing of the gender issue in your country, to

:23:15. > :23:20.give a voice to women? It is much more than that. The African Union

:23:20. > :23:27.has a protocol, which most countries have signed, and Sierra

:23:27. > :23:29.Leone is a member of the African Union. We have women's groups and

:23:30. > :23:33.the rug up specific countries there are committed not to be involved in

:23:34. > :23:39.the issue of female genital mutilation. It is something that

:23:39. > :23:44.when we started, you could not talk about it on the radio. Today,

:23:44. > :23:52.people are talking about it. And councillor, who has just lost a

:23:52. > :23:57.seat in the last election, she is a support. We agree and encourage

:23:57. > :24:02.people what the government has done is they cannot force children. The

:24:02. > :24:06.present President broke all the women and gave a commitment that

:24:06. > :24:10.they cannot force children against their will. I have to ask you this

:24:10. > :24:14.before we finish. When you finish at the UN, and you want to go back

:24:14. > :24:19.home and continue this work in change your country and

:24:19. > :24:24.particularly changing the role of women? I want to go to my village.

:24:24. > :24:28.That is where I want to stay. That is the only way I can change it. I

:24:28. > :24:34.have OP boys on the political level, I need to live with the people and

:24:34. > :24:39.make them understand. -- I have a voice on the political level. They