:00:17. > :00:22.election is on Saturday. Welcome. For too long, horse have
:00:22. > :00:27.been waged on the bodies of women. That unflinching summary of a
:00:27. > :00:30.horrible truth come from my guest today, Zainab Bangura, the UN
:00:30. > :00:34.special Representative on Sexual Violence in Conflict. Over the past
:00:34. > :00:39.two decades, the list of war-torn countries were women and children
:00:39. > :00:44.have been subjected to systematic rape and sexual abuse has grown
:00:44. > :00:54.shamefully long, from Bosnia and the Democratic Republic of Congo,
:00:54. > :01:20.
:01:20. > :01:24.to Syria today. Can the most Zainab Bangura, welcome. Thank you.
:01:24. > :01:30.You lead the international effort to try to eliminate the sexual
:01:30. > :01:34.violence as a weapon of war. I wonder whether your own background,
:01:34. > :01:41.coming from Sierra Leone, sunk into violence for so many years, does
:01:41. > :01:46.that give you a coastal state in this? Thank you. During the
:01:46. > :01:53.difficult times in the conflict in Sierra Leone, I created an
:01:53. > :01:58.organisation. Fully documented atrocities of the war. I work with
:01:58. > :02:07.his special courts. I wrote the special Reports a forced marriage
:02:07. > :02:12.and testified as an expert witness. A work -- as a human rights
:02:12. > :02:18.activist, I saw the atrocities to the girls and women, and win in two
:02:18. > :02:26.police stations and hospitals. I witnessed it first hand. I felt it
:02:26. > :02:31.and cried. I can tell their story in the special courts. The back
:02:31. > :02:36.then, did you feel a sense of helplessness in the face of the
:02:36. > :02:42.scale of the problem? The UN thinks 60,000 women were raped during the
:02:42. > :02:47.decade of Sierra Leone's civil strife. The experience I went
:02:47. > :02:57.through his very difficult to tell, especially when I have to deal with
:02:57. > :02:59.
:02:59. > :03:04.my youngest victim, three years old. meeting girls, who were abandoned
:03:04. > :03:10.by parents, I met a young lady who lost her memory. She does not know
:03:10. > :03:15.who she is, where she comes from, nothing. The pressure was so much
:03:15. > :03:24.for her. The psychological impact of what happened to her... It
:03:24. > :03:28.blocked her entire memory. I met someone who had seven children from
:03:28. > :03:36.seven people. She had to survive with seven children. The story
:03:36. > :03:39.still haunts me as I go to Somalia or, Congo. I want to talk about
:03:39. > :03:45.some of the other contemporary situations that you are dealing
:03:45. > :03:51.with today. On this broad question, given the scale of the sexual
:03:51. > :03:57.violence, the rape as a weapon of war problem, should we see it as
:03:57. > :04:01.something that is inescapably part of warfare? Frankly, if one looks
:04:01. > :04:09.back at conflicts millennia and sentries ago, this was written
:04:09. > :04:15.about, it was a problem. Rape and violence against women was used as
:04:15. > :04:25.a weapon of war. It is the longest crime. I went to the Pentagon about
:04:25. > :04:29.
:04:29. > :04:35.two weeks ago. I was talking to do pity assistance. -- deputy. He
:04:35. > :04:38.poured forward an act by a Abraham Lincoln, where they mention sexual
:04:38. > :04:48.violence and the elections that should be taken by American forces
:04:48. > :04:49.
:04:49. > :04:55.to ensure that they are managed. It is a result of the Security Council
:04:55. > :05:00.resolution. In 2000, it actually became an international criminal
:05:00. > :05:06.crime. That is interesting. There has been a couple of specific UN
:05:06. > :05:11.Security Council resolutions defining rape and sexual violence
:05:11. > :05:15.as specific elements of war crimes and crimes against humanity, which
:05:15. > :05:21.can be taken to the international courts, including the ICC in The
:05:21. > :05:28.Hague. But the question is this, is her that really going to make a
:05:28. > :05:33.difference? I think it will send a message very clearly. What the ICC
:05:33. > :05:38.is doing, and the resolutions the security council has passed, they
:05:38. > :05:43.have created a global legal framework. We are actually engaging
:05:43. > :05:47.countries constructively. We have come to realise this is not just a
:05:47. > :05:53.do in issue. It actually belongs to member-state countries. The
:05:53. > :05:57.countries where these crimes are committed have the legal, moral,
:05:57. > :06:02.responsibilities to their citizens. They have that but it means nothing
:06:02. > :06:08.in so many cases. You mentioned the Democratic Republic of Congo for
:06:08. > :06:15.you spent the last few months. We still see today 40 or so women and
:06:15. > :06:17.children being raped in eastern DRC every single day. Despite all of
:06:17. > :06:23.the laws of the Security Council resolutions you have just talked
:06:23. > :06:28.about. Because he resolution is as good as when they are implemented.
:06:29. > :06:31.You cannot leave them on the decks of the Security Council. He has
:06:31. > :06:38.defied away when national governments will take the
:06:38. > :06:48.leadership, ownership and responsibility. I was able to come
:06:48. > :06:48.
:06:48. > :06:53.out to the D R C with agreements. We spelled out specifically what we
:06:53. > :07:02.would do. There is a law in the Beyonce. We have tried to get a
:07:02. > :07:09.strategy. -- Congo. We are engaging them. A piece of paper signed by
:07:09. > :07:12.government officials in Congo, when they and institutions, the army in
:07:12. > :07:18.police and baby the judiciary are actually a part of the problem, not
:07:18. > :07:22.the solution. He challenge is, if you do not work with them, you
:07:22. > :07:27.cannot and it. You have to hold them accountable and responsible,
:07:27. > :07:34.and a sure the police -- but how do you hold them accountable? By
:07:34. > :07:40.making them agree that it is a crime. In the Ivory Coast, it is a
:07:40. > :07:47.crime. You have to make sure the country has the legal framework to
:07:47. > :07:52.criminalise it. Once you can do that, you can work with the police.
:07:52. > :08:00.We went to Columbia. So much crime has be committed during the 50
:08:00. > :08:06.Years War in Colombia. The -- our experts had to work with the
:08:06. > :08:13.judiciary to bring it off the ladder to create a framework to
:08:13. > :08:17.criminalise it, change the penal code and train people. After the
:08:17. > :08:24.war, we were trying to make sure that people who committed a crime
:08:24. > :08:27.were prosecuted. We discovered all the judges who were trained were
:08:27. > :08:32.trained in the '60s. At the time, human rights was not part of the
:08:32. > :08:36.curriculum. They do not know how to prosecute the cases. You have to
:08:36. > :08:43.work with them to understand that this is a crime. In Sierra Leone,
:08:43. > :08:45.we have judges who are trade. We passed the sex offenders Act. The
:08:45. > :08:50.outright work with the international government in that
:08:50. > :08:56.way. You are relatively optimistic in some countries that is bearing
:08:56. > :09:00.fruit. You have also done something very striking. Your predecessor in
:09:00. > :09:05.this post, you have actually gone out there and who have talked to
:09:05. > :09:10.some of the militia groups, the soldiers and rebels who have been
:09:10. > :09:14.responsible for some of these terrible crimes. I just wonder,
:09:14. > :09:21.when you look these people in the eye, and do talk to them about what
:09:21. > :09:26.they have done, what is your feeling about them? How to change
:09:26. > :09:30.them. They are in the government forces. We need to make them
:09:30. > :09:36.realise that this is a crime. We have to berate to them the effects,
:09:36. > :09:41.the damage caused. Sexual violence is not a crime against a woman a
:09:41. > :09:46.crime against a family, against a community, a crime against a
:09:46. > :09:53.society. In Somalia, I make a man who had to that of his daughters
:09:53. > :09:57.raped. He was looking for justice. This old man that was almost in
:09:57. > :10:02.tears. Two of his daughters. That is what it is all about. I had to
:10:02. > :10:07.address this plan. Imagine those women were your daughters. I know
:10:07. > :10:12.how much you value your mother's. In the African environment, and
:10:12. > :10:18.mother is so important. She can either decide the girlfriend or why
:10:18. > :10:24.he will have. Imagine your mother being raped. How would you fuel?
:10:24. > :10:27.Imagine for yourself as the mother even of a baby, let alone a young
:10:27. > :10:32.girl who has been raped, and terribly abused, coming face to
:10:32. > :10:42.face with a perpetrator as you have done. I want to get a sense of what
:10:42. > :10:43.
:10:43. > :10:52.you think drives these perpetrators? When I came from the
:10:52. > :10:57.Congo, IT visited a local militia. It was led by somebody called
:10:57. > :11:02.Morgan. In that village, last year, they read 11 babies between the
:11:02. > :11:09.ages of six months took off months. 59 babies between the ages of one
:11:09. > :11:16.year. -- one year to three years. We were extremely shocked and
:11:16. > :11:22.wanted to find out what it is that drives people to do this thing. We
:11:22. > :11:32.came to the conclusion that it is part of the explanation we have a
:11:32. > :11:33.
:11:33. > :11:39.UN. What other way can you act? It is not accidental, it is
:11:39. > :11:43.premeditated and planned. Because the conflict that happens in Africa
:11:43. > :11:48.is complicated between communities, fighting for resources, trying to
:11:48. > :11:53.take power, so the best thing you can do is go after the vulnerable
:11:53. > :11:58.group off the opposition. So people go after the women and children who
:11:58. > :12:03.cannot protect themselves. They produce the next generation. Sexual
:12:03. > :12:08.violence is so dehumanising. It is so degrading. People who go through
:12:08. > :12:13.the trauma, it takes years for them to recover. That is what they do.
:12:13. > :12:19.They try to break the human spirit of younger people and the community.
:12:19. > :12:24.The fathers, husbands, brothers. is a difficult question for you.
:12:24. > :12:30.You mentioned the host of countries from your own Sierra Leone to
:12:30. > :12:36.Colombia to obviously the Congo. Afghanistan. Afghanistan and
:12:36. > :12:39.Somalia. So many. You have a staff that barely get into double figures.
:12:40. > :12:47.You travel the world and spread the message that something has to be
:12:47. > :12:53.done. Yet, the resources you can command frankly are pitiful.
:12:53. > :12:57.good thing about this is a couple of things. One, the fact that I am
:12:57. > :13:02.chair of the UN action against sexual violence, which brings
:13:02. > :13:06.together 14 UN entities. I chair that. They are part and parcel of
:13:06. > :13:14.the network of UN agencies that are working to address the problem,
:13:14. > :13:18.from UNICEF to other organisations. All of them. Sorry to interrupt but
:13:18. > :13:25.how much credibility does the UN have on the ground but the most
:13:25. > :13:32.visible face of the UN in Congo is UN peacekeepers. We both know that
:13:32. > :13:38.over years, hundreds, frankly, hundreds of those UN soldiers have
:13:38. > :13:45.been found guilty of their own sexual exploitative crimes against
:13:45. > :13:51.local people. How much credibility does the UN on the ground we have?
:13:51. > :13:54.We have to differentiate between UN civilian, the agencies like UNICEF,
:13:54. > :13:58.but like a understand that. thinking from the perspective of a
:13:58. > :14:04.local person. You are there to tell them the UN will be there for them,
:14:04. > :14:08.to protect them, offer them haven, bring the perpetrators to justice.
:14:08. > :14:12.Yet, a different branch of the UN wearing this famous helmet over
:14:12. > :14:16.many years have been found wanting in terms of their own commitment.
:14:16. > :14:21.If we go back to the UN's and peacekeeping, I'm sure you'll agree
:14:21. > :14:26.with me in terms of sexual and exploitation, which is not my
:14:26. > :14:30.career. It is something. With differently. They have done a lot
:14:30. > :14:36.to address the issue of ex -- sexual exploitation. The Secretary
:14:37. > :14:42.General is very concerned about this issue of sexual exploitation
:14:42. > :14:47.and he is taking very strong action. I can assure you that for now, the
:14:47. > :14:54.incident of sexual exploitation has reduced. I was in Liberia, and I
:14:54. > :14:58.remember. I was in the field. At the time, the incident was larger.
:14:58. > :15:03.The engagement between the countries and training given to
:15:03. > :15:07.troops before deployed, all of that ice actually helped to reduce the
:15:07. > :15:12.issue of sexual is potation considerably on the ground. They
:15:12. > :15:15.did have incidents. Access -- action has been taken. The
:15:15. > :15:25.Secretary General is engaging member states. People who commit
:15:25. > :15:29.
:15:29. > :15:36.these will be able to make sure Exterior, you spent some time in
:15:36. > :15:40.Africa. In Syria, according to UN reports and human rights are
:15:40. > :15:45.reports, women are suffering terribly from yew bows of sexual
:15:45. > :15:49.abuse and systematic rape. The question is simple. Giving the
:15:49. > :15:59.context, what is happening in Syria today, how on earth can you expect
:15:59. > :16:08.
:16:08. > :16:18.to deliver either protection to The challenge we haven't with Syria
:16:18. > :16:19.
:16:19. > :16:23.is we do not have accessibility. -- that we have with Syria. The
:16:23. > :16:27.government I have spoken to. We are working with governments in
:16:27. > :16:32.neighbouring countries. We're very concerned about the level of sexual
:16:32. > :16:39.violence taking place. We do not have numbers for two reasons - we
:16:39. > :16:46.have problems with people accessing services. Secondly, there is the
:16:46. > :16:55.problem of on a killing. The pride and their daughter, their sister,
:16:55. > :17:02.is killed... Kill the victim. Kill the victim in Syria? It is a
:17:02. > :17:07.problem we need to address. We need to visit the camps, to go to Jordan,
:17:07. > :17:11.Lebanon and to find or the possibility of going into Syria. We
:17:11. > :17:16.talk about the refugees in the cams. Nobody has been able to tell us
:17:16. > :17:20.what is happening in there -- with those women. Who is raping them,
:17:20. > :17:28.the numbers. We do not have any information inside Syria so we are
:17:29. > :17:33.trying to work as much information. It is another disturbing story and
:17:33. > :17:38.his entire conversation so far has been about states that are failing
:17:38. > :17:42.or have been badly broken by internal strife. I want to switch
:17:42. > :17:48.the conversation a little bit. I am aware that I can tap into your
:17:48. > :17:53.experience not just as a UN person but as somebody who has been a
:17:53. > :17:59.leader in your own country, Sierra Leone. It went through 11 years of
:17:59. > :18:04.terrible civil war any in 2002. He then became a minister - Foreign
:18:04. > :18:09.Minister, health minister. In the end, you can talk about the UN and
:18:09. > :18:13.outside help and involvement that isn't it the truth that a broken
:18:13. > :18:19.Guam Sierra Leone can only really be fixed from within? To some
:18:19. > :18:24.extent. Because I can tell you that when the war ended or almost at the
:18:24. > :18:31.end of the war, one of the things we had lost in Sierra Leone and we
:18:31. > :18:34.just have seen in Somali, is institutional memory. You cannot
:18:34. > :18:39.reinstate a country in a state in which it was before the conflict
:18:39. > :18:46.because when you go back to look, it is that very state that caused
:18:46. > :18:54.the conflict. Celia had many use of a dictatorship. Our country it was
:18:54. > :18:59.destroyed. -- Shearer Leeanne. There is not a function in
:18:59. > :19:03.Parliament. Civil society does not have a voice, the opposition has no
:19:03. > :19:08.opposition. You need to go back to the drawing board. Which is while
:19:08. > :19:11.we were very happy with the issue as a poor widow from the UK. We had
:19:11. > :19:17.the British inspector-general of police because there is no-one in
:19:17. > :19:22.the police to could remember the Minister of politicians cannot
:19:22. > :19:26.order to arrest some of the opposition who said something
:19:26. > :19:33.against all the media who said something against them. He brings
:19:33. > :19:40.the prisoner ankles of President and asks him what shall I do? --
:19:40. > :19:44.and asks the President. I see the institutional problems but I am
:19:45. > :19:50.wanting to focus on something in particular - how do you get over
:19:50. > :19:54.the gender inequality in a country where it is a male-dominated
:19:54. > :19:57.society. You were, for example health minister but if I look at
:19:57. > :20:04.the stats on key measures, healthcare for mothers, infant
:20:04. > :20:07.mortality rates, goals in education, frankly, Sierra Leone in the year
:20:07. > :20:11.since the end of the war, has not really delivered in the way that
:20:12. > :20:16.you must have hoped and I wonder why that is? Because just like any
:20:16. > :20:21.other institution, the entire structure has been destroyed There
:20:21. > :20:27.are very systematic problems they need to address. For example, in
:20:27. > :20:33.the case of Sierra Leone, we had 1,900 health facilities and so we
:20:33. > :20:37.do not have enough infrastructure to attend to the population. During
:20:37. > :20:42.complex, the population tends to get much younger to because people
:20:42. > :20:46.produce more children. Secondly, you do not have the human resources.
:20:46. > :20:49.It takes that used to train a doctor. We have about three or
:20:49. > :20:55.colleges, four physicians, one paediatrician, the medical staff
:20:55. > :21:00.are in need... A lot of the staff in Sierra Lianne had let. Even if
:21:00. > :21:05.you are building infrastructure, you do not have the staff. The
:21:05. > :21:11.distribution of drug is a second issue. We have to work with UNICEF
:21:12. > :21:17.now, I signed an agreement, they will take over the issue. But, with
:21:17. > :21:21.respect, you are describing again institutional problems. I'm
:21:21. > :21:25.interested in the gender issue. And I tell you why. The track it
:21:25. > :21:30.strikes me there is one particular single issue which you could have
:21:30. > :21:35.addressed as health minister and you did not - female genital
:21:35. > :21:39.mutilation which is very widespread in Sierra Leone. 90% of women have
:21:39. > :21:45.under Gahan this particular procedure. You, in a very frank
:21:45. > :21:51.interview in 2005, described psychological effect - the real
:21:51. > :21:58.damaging effect it had on you but as health minister you do not
:21:58. > :22:01.address it. It comes under social welfare. It is not a gender issue.
:22:02. > :22:11.There you are one of the most powerful women in the country...
:22:11. > :22:19.(UNKNOWN SPEAKER), I was a campaigner. -- no. I campaigned
:22:19. > :22:27.against genital mutilation. I was stunned in some communities. Stein?
:22:27. > :22:33.Yes, they threw me out. It is the men themselves. Now, things have
:22:33. > :22:36.changed. The reality now, our generation do not send their
:22:36. > :22:44.children for the operation. I can tell you that. The figures it
:22:44. > :22:47.seemed to suggest they do. It is true. Because of your UN
:22:47. > :22:52.responsibility, you are not in politics in your country right now
:22:52. > :22:57.but you are still seen as one of the most influential women in their
:22:57. > :23:02.country. Is your message to your country they need to address that
:23:02. > :23:06.one particular issue - female genital mutilation - to send a
:23:06. > :23:15.signal about the rebalancing of the gender issue in your country, to
:23:15. > :23:20.give a voice to women? It is much more than that. The African Union
:23:20. > :23:27.has a protocol, which most countries have signed, and Sierra
:23:27. > :23:29.Leone is a member of the African Union. We have women's groups and
:23:30. > :23:33.the rug up specific countries there are committed not to be involved in
:23:34. > :23:39.the issue of female genital mutilation. It is something that
:23:39. > :23:44.when we started, you could not talk about it on the radio. Today,
:23:44. > :23:52.people are talking about it. And councillor, who has just lost a
:23:52. > :23:57.seat in the last election, she is a support. We agree and encourage
:23:57. > :24:02.people what the government has done is they cannot force children. The
:24:02. > :24:06.present President broke all the women and gave a commitment that
:24:06. > :24:10.they cannot force children against their will. I have to ask you this
:24:10. > :24:14.before we finish. When you finish at the UN, and you want to go back
:24:14. > :24:19.home and continue this work in change your country and
:24:19. > :24:24.particularly changing the role of women? I want to go to my village.
:24:24. > :24:28.That is where I want to stay. That is the only way I can change it. I
:24:28. > :24:34.have OP boys on the political level, I need to live with the people and
:24:34. > :24:39.make them understand. -- I have a voice on the political level. They