:00:02. > :00:04.mastectomy. In an article in the New York Times, she said that her
:00:04. > :00:09.doctors had told doctors had told her she had and
:00:09. > :00:13.87% chance of developing breast cancer and so she made the decision.
:00:13. > :00:16.A now on BBC News, it is time for HARDtalk.
:00:16. > :00:20.Welcome Welcome to HARDtalk. I N Stephen
:00:20. > :00:28.Sackur. The British public appears increasingly alienated from
:00:28. > :00:33.mainstream politics and politicians. short-term
:00:33. > :00:35.short-term frustration or something deeper? Like yesterday, Alan
:00:35. > :00:41.Johnson, held a series of Johnson, held a series of cabinet
:00:41. > :00:46.He is that rare breed, a politician who grew up in poverty and work his
:00:46. > :00:56.way up from the bottom. As today's professionalised class of
:00:56. > :01:17.
:01:17. > :01:23.politicians have lost touch with Alan Johnson, welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:23. > :01:27.politics a few years ago, you have spent an awful lot of time
:01:27. > :01:31.remembering and researching your remembering and researching your
:01:31. > :01:40.I was wondering why, why was it so important for you to go through
:01:40. > :01:48.were several options. Publishers wanted a book. Would it be a
:01:48. > :01:55.political memoir or a diary? I kept my child would which has been, I
:01:55. > :01:59.suppose, exposed a bit during my chose
:01:59. > :02:04.chose to go with that because I wanted to try to recreate my mother
:02:04. > :02:14.who died young and who has no memorial. There is no great or even
:02:14. > :02:17.
:02:17. > :02:19.They take away the plaque if you do recreate her and tell the story of
:02:19. > :02:25.recreate her and tell the story of my sister? Another incredible
:02:25. > :02:35.woman? Could I do it in a way that brought to life the Notting Hill of
:02:35. > :02:36.
:02:36. > :02:40.place from the Notting Hill now. We did not bum?I ? did not bum?I
:02:40. > :02:43.A fascinating time. For people who do not know Notting Hill, it is one
:02:43. > :02:46.of the most expensive neighbourhoods in modern London.
:02:46. > :02:56.neighbourhoods in modern London. When you were brought up in the
:02:56. > :02:59.
:02:59. > :03:09.neighbourhood in the 50s, you with and that was around. There was
:03:09. > :03:41.
:03:41. > :03:47.always an upstairs and downstairs In that time, it was more. There
:03:47. > :03:56.in the mid-19th century and condemned in the 1920s or 1930s
:03:56. > :04:06.meant for you. Your family, you and your sister and your mother and
:04:06. > :04:34.
:04:34. > :04:39.rooms with no indoor sanitation, no Be generally didn't want to visit
:04:39. > :04:49.but occasionally had to send buckets of urine into the rooms.
:04:49. > :05:04.
:05:04. > :05:10.In the end, these buildings were all brought down in the 1960s. They
:05:10. > :05:15.probably should have gone earlier. Or what is striking for me is that
:05:15. > :05:22.you have regretted that world and humanity. Actually, what you were
:05:22. > :05:28.your mother and your sister. There is not a sort of burning sense of
:05:28. > :05:31.anger or resentment about the way anger or resentment about the way
:05:31. > :05:35.anger or resentment about the way upbringing. I did not feel that
:05:35. > :05:38.upbringing. I did not feel that there are chips on my shoulder. Or
:05:38. > :05:40.there are chips on my shoulder. Or on any shoulder. Because this was
:05:40. > :05:43.not asked him once little house and everyone el?I ? everyone ellife o
:05:43. > :05:46.affluence, everyone did like that affluence, everyone did like that
:05:46. > :05:52.affluence, everyone did like that area. It was a very poor part of
:05:52. > :06:02.London. There was also a vibrancy to it. I think the photographs
:06:02. > :06:14.
:06:14. > :06:17.really pick up that vibrancy. There By there was a community spirit,
:06:17. > :06:22.By there was a community spirit, no-one else was going to help you
:06:22. > :06:29.out. You had to help yourself and help each other. My mother made us
:06:29. > :06:33.do errands for the older citizens. If we dared?I ? If we daredor it,
:06:33. > :06:35.my sister once took a twopence and my mother much around and made her
:06:35. > :06:44.my mother much around and made her give it back when she found out.
:06:44. > :06:53.There was a feeling that money and wealth was and the central point.
:06:53. > :06:56.used to be interesting phrase, self help, which I want to come back to.
:06:56. > :07:02.help, which I want to come back to. I used the word resentment and you
:07:02. > :07:08.say that that really was not a big your father? I do not understand
:07:08. > :07:12.why you're not more bitter about his role? He'd used a mother. He
:07:12. > :07:17.used physical violence. He left home for long periods and lied
:07:17. > :07:20.constantly to her. Hto her. H aband abandoned the family, including you
:07:20. > :07:25.when you were just 12 or 13. when you were just 12 or 13. Why
:07:25. > :07:30.are you not filled with bitterness towards him? I suppose that there
:07:30. > :07:34.is a certain amount of bitterness. I was very young. I was eight when
:07:34. > :07:39.it bikie that. I never saw him again after that. -- eight when he
:07:39. > :07:43.left. You try and understand what these problems are. ems are. dread
:07:43. > :07:47.dreadful things, not least of all was that he was a gifted musician
:07:48. > :07:54.and a gifted pianist. He only had to here at the Sydney's it to
:07:54. > :07:57.pubs. -- the only had pubs. -- the only had to here at
:07:57. > :07:59.piece of mu? I piece of mu. We piece of mu? I piece of mu. We
:07:59. > :08:04.piece of music to reproduce it. We had an old honky-tonk piano and he
:08:04. > :08:12.kept the key. My sister and I could not access and he did not help arts
:08:12. > :08:14.channel his musical ability. I find that extraordinary, as a father. I
:08:14. > :08:16.just felt embarrassed just felt embarrassed in his
:08:16. > :08:25.company. He did company. He did not mean much to me.
:08:25. > :08:31.almost as a biography of these two, my parents Lee and Steve, to try
:08:31. > :08:36.and distance myself a bit from that. -- lily. To try and tell my
:08:36. > :08:42.mother's story which I think is heroic. My father is not heroic. He
:08:42. > :08:48.was part of the problem. Iqbal was in the book, that would not be the
:08:48. > :08:52.kind of story that people want to read. -- if I
:08:52. > :08:55.read. -- if I was just to show. I were to read any politician's
:08:55. > :08:59.pork. You are still a member parliament and you may be a member
:08:59. > :09:04.of a future government. -- politician's pork. I
:09:04. > :09:09.politician's pork. I cannot help but think about the issues thabout t
:09:09. > :09:13.faces the party today. He used the phrase, self-help, and the attitude
:09:13. > :09:16.that your parents instilled in you. -- a mother instilled in you.
:09:16. > :09:19.-- a mother instilled in you. You had to do what ever you could to
:09:19. > :09:24.raise yourself up. Isn't the message of Alan Johnson and his
:09:24. > :09:30.emergence from chronic poverty from the bottom that actually self-help
:09:30. > :09:36.did work. The state did you nothing. You actually achieved what you did
:09:36. > :09:41.through your own efforts, from beginning to end. That is not true.
:09:41. > :09:44.It is not true of my mother. My mother spent the whole of her short
:09:44. > :09:47.life on the council waiting list. The is and that
:09:47. > :09:49.The is and that there.? They too were brought up in that terrible
:09:49. > :09:51.were brought up in that terrible housing condition... The book
:09:51. > :09:55.finishes wh? I finishes whng finishes when I'm 18 and getting
:09:55. > :10:01.married. If? I married. If married. If it were not - back in
:10:01. > :10:05.Notting Hill, getting married back in that slum - if it were not for
:10:05. > :10:10.that opportunity for a council house which is the next phase on a
:10:10. > :10:13.big council estate in Slough, that was the only escape for me. It
:10:13. > :10:17.was the only escape for me. It is in praise of council housing which
:10:17. > :10:19.is nowadays, if someone lives in council hou?I ? council hou?I
:10:19. > :10:25.they are a loser in life. That is interesting. I
:10:25. > :10:28.interesting. I do not know if you hours, a new report has come out
:10:28. > :10:33.from the Joseph Rowntree Foundation looking at attitudes towards those
:10:33. > :10:38.on the bottom of the pile, the poorest, those depended on welfare.
:10:38. > :10:38.The headline in the Guardian newspaper, left-leaning paper, but
:10:38. > :10:39.Labour Labour
:10:39. > :10:45.Labour voters are Labour voters are increasingly
:10:45. > :10:50.Party believe that
:10:50. > :10:55.believe that welfare recipients are undeserving and that the welfare
:10:55. > :11:00.state encourages dependence. What is going on here? When you reflect
:11:00. > :11:04.on the attitudes and cultural of the 1950s when you were very poor
:11:05. > :11:11.and today's attitudes to the very poor, what is going on? What is
:11:11. > :11:12.going on the kind of -- is the
:11:12. > :11:19.the kind of -- is the kind of calls you hear
:11:19. > :11:22.George Osborne has set out specifically to try and said the
:11:23. > :11:28.public against a group of people. He says in
:11:28. > :11:32.He says in the morning that the go to work and they look at the
:11:32. > :11:38.neighbouring house as a shirker with the blinds drawn. He used
:11:38. > :11:44.divisive way to look at society. people going
:11:44. > :11:48.people going to work at 6am, many of them will be cleaning offices
:11:48. > :11:53.and Parliam?I ? and Parliam are on benefits?I ? on
:11:53. > :11:58.so low. Is it not a bit easy to blame your political opponents for
:11:58. > :12:08.ceding a message that you think is unpleasant? Is there not some truth,
:12:08. > :12:08.
:12:08. > :14:31.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 143 seconds
:14:31. > :14:36.among Labour-supporting people that As a genuine
:14:36. > :14:46.As a genuine working-class politician, how disappointed are
:14:46. > :14:51.
:14:51. > :14:56.you about the growing inequality? look at housing inequalities, the
:14:56. > :15:02.health of everyone improved during our time in office, and the health
:15:02. > :15:04.health of the health of the prosperous, but there
:15:04. > :15:10.was still a gap. If you look at the was still a gap. If you look at the
:15:10. > :15:15.increased earnings of the poorest, minimum-wage, tax credits,
:15:15. > :15:25.pensioners in particular, with pension credit, and abject poverty,
:15:25. > :15:25.
:15:25. > :16:55.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 143 seconds
:16:55. > :17:00.�70 a week with income support. are all kinds of reasons for that.
:17:00. > :17:06.You could a?I ? You could a David Milib?I ? David Milib?I
:17:07. > :17:08.has gone down in the annals conversational history and politics,
:17:08. > :17:11.when you or when you or Tony Blair
:17:11. > :17:17.when you or Tony Blair where tatin once, you were swapping stories.
:17:17. > :17:19.You both had young children at a time. He heard you say, it is worth
:17:19. > :17:25.remembering, when I remembering, when I was 20, I was
:17:25. > :17:30.already living in a council house, married with three children. Tony
:17:30. > :17:35.Blair did a double-take. He said, my gosh, you are working class,
:17:35. > :17:39.aren't you? I did aren't you? I did not. He did not
:17:39. > :17:42.pretend to come from any poorer background than he did come from.
:17:42. > :17:48.This was in?I ? This was ind of feeling that I said
:17:49. > :17:53.feeling that I said to him, the working-class would not have a
:17:53. > :17:58.population explosion. He is emblematic of the professionalised
:17:58. > :18:08.political class, which seems so far removed from most British people's
:18:08. > :18:25.
:18:25. > :18:35.experience. They are living in a life. What Tony was trying to do.
:18:35. > :18:39.
:18:39. > :18:44.life. What Tony was trying to do. It should become inconceivable for
:18:44. > :18:50.poor people to leave school that only. Britain is a more middle
:18:50. > :18:56.class plays on whole. But this is a bit of an identity problem for the
:18:56. > :18:59.Labour Party. I want to bring in the key challenges. Len McCluskey,
:18:59. > :19:04.the leader of the biggest union, he said to the Guardian, and this was
:19:04. > :19:11.a great sense of regret, I do not think that Labour is a working-
:19:11. > :19:17.class party any more. Does that matter? I do not think that he is
:19:17. > :19:25.an authority on this. I do not time. It wo? I time. It would ma
:19:25. > :19:26.time. It would matter if we duly trade unionists who formed the
:19:26. > :19:29.trade union?I ? trade unionformed Labour Party, they specifically
:19:29. > :19:34.took the decision not to took the decision not to become the
:19:34. > :19:43.class party, in the , in the , in th were a narrow party of protest. The
:19:44. > :19:49.day when the Labour Party says, we do not allow anyone in our ranks...
:19:49. > :19:59.wall be the day they are finished dilemma. More
:19:59. > :20:20.
:20:20. > :20:25.dilemma. More than 80% of Labour the relationsh
:20:25. > :20:34.the relationship with the unions and yet what -- move away from
:20:34. > :20:44.agree with, agree with,
:20:44. > :20:45.
:20:45. > :20:47.working-class people the first
:20:47. > :20:48.the first k? I the first k the first k? I the first k
:20:48. > :20:54.the first kind of feel you get for politics. T
:20:54. > :20:55.get trade union members and people, and
:20:55. > :21:01.and and people from a poorer background,
:21:01. > :21:03.helping them to do that. It is part of the social mobility story that
:21:03. > :21:06.has now been hampered by the fact that
:21:06. > :21:07.that trade ?I ? that trade ot have as many members.
:21:07. > :21:10.have as many members. have as many members.
:21:10. > :21:10.that trade ?I ? that trade ot have as many members. that trade ?I ? that trade ot have as many members.
:21:10. > :21:12.that trade ?I ? that trade ot have as many members. that trade ?I ? that trade ot have as man? I have as man
:21:12. > :21:16.of of James Callaghan, Dennis
:21:16. > :21:26.of James Ca? I of James Canner, they all came...
:21:26. > :21:53.
:21:53. > :21:54.they all came... let it -- the getting down the waiting class --
:21:54. > :21:55.getting down the waiting class -- getting down the waiting class --
:21:55. > :21:59.the waiting list, it is the waiting list, it is
:21:59. > :22:00.the waiting list, it is that helps ? I that helps t it
:22:00. > :22:03.that helps ? I that helps t it that helps the poorest. And yet it
:22:03. > :22:07.is dismissed as if 1d as if 1d as ifd is dismissed as if 1d as if 1d as ifd
:22:07. > :22:17.only about the statistics that you cited. The two challenges, one is
:22:17. > :22:19.
:22:19. > :22:24.getting into a position where they they are going to promise a
:22:24. > :22:31.referendum on Europe in 2017. Should Labour also be committing to
:22:31. > :22:36.a popular referendum in that issue? No. Why do the Tories want to do
:22:36. > :22:40.for working people, for working people, they do not
:22:40. > :22:45.like the fact that you have got the right...