:00:14. > :00:18.Now on BBC News, it's time for Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Sarah
:00:18. > :00:25.Montague. Archbishop Desmond Tutu has given up on South Africa's
:00:25. > :00:30.ruling party, the ANC. He says he will not be voting for them in next
:00:30. > :00:33.year's elections. But what are the alternatives? The ANC, Nelson
:00:33. > :00:38.Mandela's All Party, have dominated politics and government in South
:00:38. > :00:41.Africa since the end of apartheid nearly 20 years ago. My guest today,
:00:41. > :00:48.Lindiwe Mazibuko, is the parliamentary leader of the largest
:00:48. > :00:52.opposition party, the Freeney. What chance does it really have against
:00:52. > :01:02.the ANC, which is still seen as the natural home for black voters --
:01:02. > :01:23.
:01:23. > :01:30.Lindiwe Mazibuko, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you very much.If
:01:30. > :01:34.getting near government it has to reach out and get support from
:01:34. > :01:39.black voters. And that's where you have struggled so far, isn't it?
:01:39. > :01:42.Absolutely. There's no question that any party in South Africa that
:01:42. > :01:46.aspires to be a government at national level has to be able to
:01:46. > :01:50.attract support from black South Africans. Not only in terms of
:01:50. > :01:57.numbers, but it needs to be on a moral and ethical level a South
:01:57. > :02:01.African party, a party for the people. That is one of our major
:02:01. > :02:05.targets in the run-up to the 2014 election, and it's been one of the
:02:05. > :02:08.goals we have set ourselves, to get to 30% at national level by
:02:08. > :02:12.bringing on significantly more black supporters. One of the
:02:12. > :02:18.problems you have got at the moment is you have got roughly 80 Members
:02:18. > :02:22.of Parliament, and the majority are white. But 9% of the population is
:02:22. > :02:26.white. I mean, my Members of Parliament are from communities all
:02:26. > :02:30.over the country. They are representative of a large number of
:02:30. > :02:34.language groups, a large number of race groups, a large number of
:02:34. > :02:38.communities in every part of the country. But the Democratic
:02:38. > :02:44.Alliance's parliamentary caucus is representative of where we were in
:02:44. > :02:47.2009 at that election. The fact those MPs in 2011 affected me, a
:02:47. > :02:51.33-year-old black South African woman, to lead them, is a
:02:51. > :02:54.representation of how committed they are to the growth and
:02:54. > :02:59.diversification of the party. Looking at the Congress last year,
:02:59. > :03:03.the fact that we marched against the youth wage subsidy in
:03:03. > :03:06.Johannesburg, thousands of black South Africans came out to support
:03:06. > :03:10.the Democratic Alliance. You can see how quickly the party is
:03:10. > :03:16.changing. I don't think our representation four years ago is a
:03:16. > :03:26.representation of now. We're growing at an almost pays. You have
:03:26. > :03:26.
:03:26. > :03:31.made a lot of black voters convert to you. We are the biggest party in
:03:31. > :03:35.the opposition among black South African voters. If there was only a
:03:35. > :03:40.black electric in South Africa we would still be the official
:03:40. > :03:44.opposition. -- Black electorates. There's no question that there's a
:03:44. > :03:49.big challenge ahead of us. We're ready for that challenge. Part of
:03:49. > :03:54.that challenge has to make sure with making sure we're a party not
:03:54. > :03:59.only of being black, there's a danger of parties only being about
:03:59. > :04:03.racial nationalism and competing with each other. We need to cast --
:04:03. > :04:06.craft a political policy about diversity and protecting people's
:04:06. > :04:10.rights. You made the point that they elected you as their
:04:10. > :04:13.parliamentary leader, but you will know the Communist Party chief
:04:13. > :04:18.called you a coconut. The suggestion you're black on the
:04:18. > :04:22.outside but White on the inside. political opponents say lots of
:04:22. > :04:27.disgusting, racist, sexist and age is things about me. I don't believe
:04:27. > :04:32.them to be true -- ageist. I don't lie awake at night worrying they
:04:32. > :04:38.have misunderstood a part of my character. What makes my leadership
:04:38. > :04:41.so exciting is that South Africa's a young country. Two-thirds are
:04:41. > :04:46.under 35. The statistician general in the year before last census said
:04:46. > :04:51.the average age of South Africans is 25. Looking at Jacob Zuma, who
:04:51. > :04:57.is in his 70s, we have birthdays a few days apart, he has just turned
:04:57. > :05:02.71 and I've just turned 33, we are much closer to the age of the South
:05:02. > :05:07.African populous. You look at the former president of the ANC's Youth
:05:07. > :05:11.League, he said you were the tea girl of the madam, referring to
:05:11. > :05:16.Helensvale, the party leader. interesting thing about him, he
:05:16. > :05:21.backed the wrong horse in the ANC's policy Conference, so now he's in
:05:21. > :05:25.the political wilderness. How long that will be, we don't know. His
:05:25. > :05:29.brand of politics was based on divisiveness. It was based on the
:05:29. > :05:34.very kind of name-calling that he engaged in when he made reference
:05:34. > :05:38.to mead, racialism, talk about nationalisation -- nationalising
:05:39. > :05:43.minds and strategic interests. The divisions between older and younger
:05:43. > :05:48.South Africans and black and white. He dominated the discourse in youth
:05:48. > :05:51.politics for a long time. Now he has left that vacuum, my party, a
:05:52. > :05:55.modern forward looking political party with a mixed generation of
:05:55. > :05:58.leaders, has the opportunity to capture the imagination of those
:05:59. > :06:02.young people who are living difficult lives. They are suffering
:06:02. > :06:06.from poor education, they are worried about their employment,
:06:06. > :06:10.they want to enter the formal economy. We want to make sure
:06:10. > :06:15.there's a political an affirmative -- political alternative that is
:06:15. > :06:21.not racist and offers them a different future. But you also
:06:21. > :06:25.offer a party that has overwhelmingly the support of the
:06:25. > :06:28.whites in South Africa. People will look at you and think, there are
:06:28. > :06:33.things that you can't do because you will alienate your white
:06:33. > :06:37.supporters. Yes... one of the things we have done in the
:06:37. > :06:40.Democratic Alliance is we have embarked on a campaign. The purpose
:06:40. > :06:44.is to deal with some of the stereotypes around white South
:06:44. > :06:48.Africans in politics, which have led to the implication that if
:06:48. > :06:52.you're a white politician you must have been part of apartheid and you
:06:52. > :06:55.must yearn in your heart for a return to apartheid. It is one of
:06:55. > :07:03.the challenges we have come across when talking to young South
:07:03. > :07:08.Africans, and about supporting cast. We talk about various stories, who
:07:08. > :07:12.are the leaders of our party and helped form our party. They fought
:07:12. > :07:15.in the struggle for liberation. To put paid to this notion that having
:07:15. > :07:21.a political party that has white leaders in its ranks necessarily
:07:21. > :07:25.means those leaders somehow yearn for apartheid. You call this the
:07:25. > :07:30.pre-election campaign... the ANC as Loch Ewe for stealing, for
:07:30. > :07:33.borrowing their credentials in the struggle -- mocked you. They said
:07:33. > :07:38.that you were synonymous with repression and never involved in
:07:38. > :07:41.the liberation of South Africa. That's not true. Part of our
:07:41. > :07:45.campaign has been reflecting on what ANC leaders have said about
:07:45. > :07:48.the struggle. We have made reference to the warm relationship
:07:49. > :07:52.that Helen had with Albert, who wrote to her and told her what a
:07:52. > :07:57.great job she was doing standing up for liberty in Parliament on her
:07:58. > :08:01.own for 13 years. We made reference to comments made by Winnie Mandela
:08:01. > :08:05.and Nelson Mandela about the legacy of our predecessor leaders in the
:08:05. > :08:09.struggle against apartheid. But this is about the past. We are
:08:09. > :08:13.talking about the past because we want voters to know where we come
:08:13. > :08:18.from and not to be afraid all concerned all worried about what it
:08:18. > :08:22.is we want to do in the future. Even your own former leader, Tony
:08:22. > :08:27.Leon, said if you get into a contest about that with the ANC
:08:27. > :08:32.they're going to beat you every time. It's not a contest with the
:08:33. > :08:36.ANC. We want to tell Our Own story and not on the ANC's own terms. The
:08:36. > :08:41.police minister called us agents of apartheid, if we don't respond to
:08:41. > :08:45.that we allowed the ANC to frame our own history. But that is
:08:45. > :08:51.because you came up with the campaign, no you're Democratic
:08:51. > :08:57.Alliance. We can never preside over a situation where the ANC tells our
:08:57. > :09:01.story for us. I was questioning your version. You came up with the
:09:01. > :09:05.story in the campaign. Their own leaders have paid tribute to our
:09:05. > :09:08.leaders' role in the struggle for liberation. If they want to
:09:08. > :09:14.contradict that position they are contradiction members of their own
:09:14. > :09:18.leadership. You want to transcend race, but Archbishop Desmond Tutu
:09:18. > :09:22.describe South Africa as the most unequal society in the world. When
:09:22. > :09:28.people talk about it being an emerging economy and a powerhouse
:09:28. > :09:33.for the Continent... it is usually unequal. Absolutely.And that
:09:33. > :09:37.inequality correlates with a race. Absolutely. When you have a poor
:09:37. > :09:42.black person looking to see which party he could vote for in
:09:42. > :09:48.government, that is most likely to insure that he or she will get a
:09:48. > :09:51.job... it is hard to see why they would go for you, with you're
:09:51. > :09:57.predominantly white support, against the ANC, which is still
:09:57. > :10:02.seem as the Party of Liberation. The party that basically presided
:10:02. > :10:08.over the struggles, and won freedom for blacks in South Africa. It's
:10:08. > :10:13.important when making reference to us to remember that we won 24% of
:10:13. > :10:16.the vote in the last local election. And only 9% of the population is
:10:16. > :10:21.white. Yes, we have white supporters, and we have large
:10:21. > :10:26.numbers of them. But we're no longer a white party. Are you
:10:26. > :10:29.picking up the poor black vote? Before I get to that, it's very
:10:29. > :10:34.important that you recognise how much the Democratic Alliance has
:10:34. > :10:38.changed and how little the label of white party applies to a party that
:10:38. > :10:42.has one in four of all South African voters supporting it. But I
:10:42. > :10:46.agree, inequality is a massive problem. In 18 years in government
:10:46. > :10:50.the ANC has not addressed in a quality, it is at the same high
:10:50. > :10:55.levels it was at when they took office. They have been -- there
:10:55. > :11:00.have been good inroads made into economic policy to address her
:11:01. > :11:05.Westermann questions, but job- creation has not been a success --
:11:05. > :11:10.Investment questions. We're not only an opposition party. We are
:11:10. > :11:14.coming in Cape Town and in 28 other municipalities. -- we are governing.
:11:14. > :11:20.We have a semi federal system of government, so we are implementing
:11:20. > :11:24.policies that do that. In the last quarter, South Africa shed jobs.
:11:24. > :11:28.The only province in the entire country which didn't was the
:11:28. > :11:33.Western Cape, which increase the number of people working by 8,000.
:11:33. > :11:36.You're talking about somebody in Johannesburg that is thinking about,
:11:36. > :11:41.should I vote for this party. One of the things you will know that
:11:41. > :11:48.has been said about you, they look to you, a young black woman leading
:11:48. > :11:52.this party, they see somebody... I have read enough of this... they
:11:52. > :11:56.want a role model. It was one of your own colleagues who apologised
:11:56. > :11:59.for it afterwards, they said, "If you close your eyes and you listen
:11:59. > :12:03.to Lindiwe Mazibuko, when she speaks you would think a white
:12:03. > :12:09.person is talking to you close quite. They after a black role
:12:09. > :12:13.model, talking about the difficulties are the economic
:12:13. > :12:17.situation when your back. One of the big mistakes people make in
:12:17. > :12:20.South Africa is believing that the only people that can attract
:12:20. > :12:24.support from any particular race crude or population group are
:12:24. > :12:28.people that look and sound like that group. It is the mistake the
:12:28. > :12:31.ANC made when they thought simply having a coloured leader
:12:31. > :12:36.campaigning in the Western Cape, coloured South African people would
:12:36. > :12:41.automatically rally behind it. But instead Helen, a white woman of
:12:41. > :12:45.German extraction, who learned to speak Afrikaans, went out into the
:12:45. > :12:48.community in the Western Cape and empathised with, engaged with, and
:12:48. > :12:58.understood the issues close to the members of those communities'
:12:58. > :12:59.
:12:59. > :13:05.hearts. What about you? You come from a comfortably-off middle class
:13:05. > :13:09.family, privately educated. You spend time overseas. I presume you
:13:09. > :13:14.are fluent in... I am.But you choose not to speak in that
:13:14. > :13:19.language? I speak in Zulu all the time but this is an English
:13:19. > :13:22.language medium. Do you recognise you haven't reached people, it is
:13:23. > :13:27.the personal thing? It is a recognition of the evening you
:13:27. > :13:32.could be speaking for them, rather than a comfortably off woman
:13:32. > :13:37.leading a white party. I know you object but that's it. It is not
:13:37. > :13:40.that I object but it is that people making those analysis don't engage
:13:40. > :13:49.on any other level. People making that kind of accusation don't
:13:49. > :13:52.listen to me at rallies, on the radio stations, where we engage
:13:52. > :13:56.with members of the community from all walks of life. In the
:13:56. > :13:59.Democratic Alliance we do not expect people only to speak to
:13:59. > :14:04.people looking and sounding like them. Just because I'm black and
:14:04. > :14:09.middle class, I'm not only expected to campaign in middle class areas.
:14:09. > :14:13.How do you see yourself? Are you back first and South African second,
:14:13. > :14:19.or the other way round? I would call myself a black South African
:14:19. > :14:23.young woman. Black comes first? That is the order. Black comes
:14:23. > :14:29.first? Yes. I also acknowledge the right of every South African to
:14:29. > :14:33.choose whatever order they want to order their identified. It is not a
:14:33. > :14:37.group identification system, that is what apartheid was. But thinking
:14:37. > :14:41.about my identity as a political leader, the first thing that comes
:14:41. > :14:46.to me is that I am black. With that be the case for most black South
:14:47. > :14:51.Africans? I don't know, it could be a legacy of apartheid. It could be
:14:51. > :14:56.a function of resources, where you lived or what you did. It was seen
:14:56. > :14:59.as the only important identify at of you as an individual. It's why
:14:59. > :15:02.there's a residual self identification that begins with
:15:02. > :15:07.race in South Africa. We acknowledge that as well. We're not
:15:07. > :15:11.trying to pretend race does not exist. Transcending race is not
:15:11. > :15:15.about acting as though it has no cogency. It is about making sure
:15:16. > :15:25.people can understand that they can trust each other across racial
:15:26. > :15:28.
:15:28. > :15:34.It is their desire from people to make his bit more about race? To be
:15:34. > :15:39.more aware of it? Not to be in denial of it all to try to
:15:39. > :15:48.transcended as you often do? It sounds as though you're trying to
:15:48. > :15:53.speak to your white supporters or pacify them. Not at all! It is not
:15:53. > :15:58.about not freaking out. Afrikaner nationalism or black nationalism
:15:58. > :16:02.under a black National Party are equally bad for South Africa.
:16:02. > :16:05.Nationalism is not just bad for one that rescript. The problem with
:16:05. > :16:10.nationalism is that it excludes people and it excludes them on the
:16:10. > :16:14.basis of their race and nothing else. If we are trying to bind the
:16:14. > :16:18.wounds of apartheid, we cannot offer a political Offiah on a
:16:18. > :16:23.national level entirely based on race. We have to tell people that
:16:23. > :16:28.we understand race and that Equality has a colour and we have
:16:28. > :16:32.to address disparities. We must do so together and not separates --
:16:32. > :16:41.separated by groups as apartheid dictated. There had been a tense
:16:41. > :16:44.for your party to try and get the part of Steve Pico who was the
:16:44. > :16:50.father of the Black consciousness Movement, a very significant figure.
:16:50. > :16:54.It failed. She ended up setting up her own political platform. There
:16:54. > :16:59.has been this problem within the divided opposition. And you are
:16:59. > :17:04.never going to be able to take on the ANC unless you work together?
:17:04. > :17:08.Absolutely. When we talk about our electoral calls, entering
:17:08. > :17:13.government in 2019, we are talking about a Coalition. For the first
:17:13. > :17:18.time, we will have a new government when the ANC is pushed below 50%
:17:18. > :17:23.and the opposition can work together. We were engaged with the
:17:23. > :17:27.tractor negotiations with that Dr. All of us in the Democratic allies
:17:27. > :17:32.admire her track record. offered for her to be your leader
:17:32. > :17:35.and changed the name. She declined because she chose a different path.
:17:36. > :17:40.She formed a different political organisation and contested the
:17:40. > :17:45.elections on her own. She said that she would never be caught dead.
:17:45. > :17:50.That was the choice she made in the end. It is her choice. It is a good
:17:50. > :17:56.thing because we have more options for Coalition government. -- never
:17:56. > :18:03.be co-opted. We believe that that we can win in a Coalition and if
:18:03. > :18:06.she is added to the mix, that is another part of the political mix.
:18:06. > :18:10.CROSSTALK. Up if you were a success for an
:18:10. > :18:14.getting her, I imagine that you were approached -- that you
:18:14. > :18:19.approach the Archbishop. I cannot talk about who and who we have not
:18:19. > :18:24.approached. The endorsement of someone like him would be a
:18:24. > :18:30.landfall. For any organisation. I will not talk about why have and I
:18:30. > :18:33.have not approached. We spoke to Patricia, the leader of the
:18:33. > :18:37.Independent Democrats, a trade unionist and hugely admired in
:18:37. > :18:43.South African politics. She merged her political party with hours two
:18:43. > :18:46.years ago and is the mayor of Cape Town. Her great projects for the
:18:47. > :18:50.Democratic Alliance since she became the leader of the party has
:18:50. > :18:55.been to close down the barriers with opposition parties which share
:18:55. > :19:00.the same values but differ on policy matters. This is so that we
:19:00. > :19:03.can make a credible offer to voters. In the event it best not all
:19:03. > :19:07.political parties to share our values agree to that measure, we
:19:07. > :19:12.can still work together in a Coalition. We need to build those
:19:12. > :19:17.relationships. You seem a long way from that. Giving the public
:19:17. > :19:21.conversations that to have had about this. The opposition is
:19:21. > :19:25.seriously divided and it is hard to see work together. The opposition
:19:25. > :19:32.is not divided. I have worked with the opposition in parliament for
:19:32. > :19:35.every year. We have a multi-party opposition Forum. We led a bill to
:19:35. > :19:40.unseat President Jacob Zuma from office because of the crisis he
:19:41. > :19:43.faced in government last year. We opposed to the State Information
:19:44. > :19:48.Bill. We fought for more accountability and more
:19:48. > :19:51.effectiveness in Parliament. We are not divided. We are working
:19:51. > :19:58.together. We had different value sets and different programmes of
:19:58. > :20:02.action. Where we have common cause we come together and work together.
:20:02. > :20:09.We will be enabled to get into Coalition. The government is to
:20:09. > :20:13.work on one thing. A reform. I will report from 1941, a former ANC
:20:13. > :20:17.president. The fundamental basis of all wealth and power is the
:20:17. > :20:21.ownership of land. Without land rights, any race will be doomed to
:20:21. > :20:26.poverty and the lack of life's essential. The reason that the
:20:26. > :20:31.government said, we want to transfer 30% of the land that is
:20:31. > :20:36.owned by whites to blacks and we're talking about apartheid, 87% of the
:20:37. > :20:40.land in South Africa was owned by whites. You agree that ambition?
:20:40. > :20:45.support land reform. It is two parts. There is land restitution,
:20:45. > :20:50.the land from which a black South Africans were dispossessed under
:20:50. > :20:53.forced removals in the 1930s Land Act. And then land reform for its
:20:53. > :20:57.own sake because we need to diversify the economy. The reason
:20:57. > :21:01.that land ownership is skewed is because of economic legislation
:21:01. > :21:07.drafted by the apartheid government which deliberately kept a black
:21:07. > :21:12.people off land. It is absolutely essential... To improve their
:21:12. > :21:16.prospects. The government has said it cannot meet the target by next
:21:16. > :21:21.year. We are talking about radically changing it. Speeding it
:21:21. > :21:26.up. Do you agree with that? think that had we been in
:21:26. > :21:32.government, we would have reached that target. We shall not go over
:21:32. > :21:38.the history. We shall talk about now. The file you is something for
:21:38. > :21:42.which the government must take responsibility. We must speed it up.
:21:42. > :21:47.It is no way near the target. The methodologies have failed. The
:21:47. > :21:50.government needs to do a rethink about how it engages in the reform.
:21:50. > :21:57.There is a national development plan which has a case in point. It
:21:57. > :21:59.is proposed a system of shared ownership will wear black farm
:21:59. > :22:06.workers who have been living and working there for generations are
:22:06. > :22:16.given funding by the government to acquire a share on the farm in
:22:16. > :22:19.
:22:19. > :22:23.which they have worked for We have implemented that approach
:22:23. > :22:28.where we govern. The ANC has not engaged in a process of land reform
:22:28. > :22:35.that has taken any innovative ways into account. That is why they have
:22:35. > :22:42.not reached this. You are saying that they could reach the 30%...
:22:42. > :22:47.The talk of expropriation, of going -- of making it just and equitable?
:22:47. > :22:54.It is a constitutional method of land reform and we supported. We
:22:54. > :22:59.are a constitutional party. Willing buyer, willing seller. It is not a
:22:59. > :23:03.seizure of land that is done without the consent... The
:23:03. > :23:08.constitution is very clear about the fact that if land is
:23:08. > :23:11.expropriated, it must be done at market prices. If the two parties
:23:11. > :23:16.cannot reach an agreement, the courts can intervene to set the
:23:16. > :23:19.price and make sure that the deal can go through. We are
:23:19. > :23:24.constitutionalists as a party and we believe that land reform must
:23:24. > :23:27.take place. The ANC does not have to go down the route of a land
:23:27. > :23:34.grabs which is what forced expropriation would imply in order
:23:34. > :23:37.to reach these targets. They will fail to reach the not because they
:23:37. > :23:43.did not be forced appropriation but because they did not do the correct
:23:43. > :23:48.policy. The ANC say they will not do this. One of the reason for so
:23:48. > :23:53.much uncertainty is that the ANC government quite offensively toys
:23:53. > :23:56.with extreme examples of economic intervention. They talk about
:23:56. > :24:01.nationalisation and that kind of policy uncertainty leads investors
:24:01. > :24:06.to wonder whether or not they should bring many into the South
:24:06. > :24:11.African economy. The ANC should not talk about expropriation without
:24:11. > :24:15.compensation. I believe that there is enough social justice room and
:24:15. > :24:18.enough of a social justice mandate in the constitution which compels
:24:18. > :24:22.the government to engage in expropriation for the purposes of
:24:22. > :24:26.land reform but it dictates that that must be done to the principle