:00:04. > :00:14.party wins the election. That's all from me. No it is time
:00:14. > :00:19.
:00:19. > :00:25.Will come to HARDtalk. France is one of the political heavyweights
:00:25. > :00:30.of the European Union. A key world economy and a major global player.
:00:30. > :00:35.Neil Jean-Francois Cope, the leader of the UMP Party has lurched
:00:35. > :00:39.further to the right on issues like a game marriage. He has also made
:00:39. > :00:44.comments about the French Muslim community that have led to
:00:44. > :00:48.accusations that he is threatening cultural harmony. Is he in danger
:00:48. > :00:58.of concerning his party to the political dustbin at home and on
:00:58. > :01:21.
:01:21. > :01:29.Jean-Francois Cope, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you.Are you
:01:29. > :01:34.perhaps not too right-wing for the party at which? We are the right
:01:34. > :01:40.wing as opposed to the left wing of the Socialist Party. I considered
:01:40. > :01:47.the right wing in France has to be open to the world, open to the big
:01:47. > :01:52.challenges that we have to face. Competitiveness, integration of
:01:53. > :01:59.immigrants, and also a question of identity for the country. How can
:02:00. > :02:07.Europe face the crisis that we have to face? Taking into account the
:02:07. > :02:11.evolutions of the world. China, America and Africa. The main
:02:11. > :02:16.challenge is to modernise the country. The talk about the
:02:16. > :02:20.importance of the integration of immigrants in France. But I want to
:02:20. > :02:26.put it to you that when you have made so can comments about some
:02:26. > :02:31.Muslim communities in France, perhaps you have achieved the
:02:31. > :02:37.opposite of integration. In April 2011 new launch a public debate
:02:37. > :02:43.about Islam in secular France. Many people are concerned by the fair
:02:43. > :02:51.views of integration. Even other members of your own party, people
:02:51. > :02:55.like the former prime minister, they stayed part of the debate.
:02:55. > :03:05.had this debate in France you should be. But we have now reached
:03:05. > :03:06.
:03:06. > :03:13.a common point. One of the most important challenges that we have
:03:13. > :03:19.to face is a capacity to be successful and integration. Culture,
:03:19. > :03:24.education, housing, employment, all of these things are very important
:03:24. > :03:31.for them. And for the country as well. This is not a French problem.
:03:31. > :03:37.It is a problem for everyone in Europe. We should make sure that
:03:37. > :03:43.the people who are coming into France are adapting to common
:03:43. > :03:48.values. For instance, the capacity to respect each religion, to
:03:48. > :03:52.respect each religion. The condition is that everybody
:03:52. > :04:02.respects the religion of the other one and respects the walls of the
:04:02. > :04:04.
:04:05. > :04:11.French Republic. That is why we for -- ban to the broker. That is why
:04:11. > :04:17.parties across the political spectrum. I was not saying that you
:04:18. > :04:23.were anti- immigration. You are the product of immigrants. The problem
:04:23. > :04:28.is that we need to be successful. You have made some comments that
:04:28. > :04:35.are controversial. Specifically directed at the Muslim community in
:04:35. > :04:42.France. October last year you want about and I white racism in France.
:04:42. > :04:50.You made an anecdote about a child who had its chocolate taken away by
:04:50. > :04:53.the thugs. You sit there were needed Woods who cannot passionate
:04:53. > :05:02.you said there were neighbourhoods which children could not eat the
:05:02. > :05:06.chocolate because it was Ramadan. There are places in France...
:05:06. > :05:16.you know for sure this had happened in your constituency and in other
:05:16. > :05:17.
:05:17. > :05:22.places? What I wanted it to mean, and let us forget the anecdote, is
:05:22. > :05:28.that France, like everyone in Europe, we have to respect the
:05:28. > :05:34.religion of everybody. Each person has to respect the religion of the
:05:34. > :05:40.others. That means not to instrumental lines the practice of
:05:40. > :05:47.a religion in order to be violent. This can be the beginning of
:05:47. > :05:55.extremism. Arab Party and the common produced in France, but also
:05:55. > :06:01.in Europe, is to make sure that we are against all kinds of extremists.
:06:01. > :06:05.It is very important for us to keep on the same values. That is why it
:06:06. > :06:14.was a way from me and many other people to say that people belonging
:06:14. > :06:22.to Republican Party's are very respectful with the rules of
:06:22. > :06:27.democracy has saying people to be cautious. People in the far-right
:06:27. > :06:34.with the Phar Lap. But that anecdote particularly of the child
:06:34. > :06:41.being robbed by thugs is quite an evocative example. Was it the right
:06:41. > :06:46.thing for you as a senior politician for you to talk about?
:06:46. > :06:54.Which can make a long story about that. I will tell you why. The
:06:54. > :07:04.Minister of women's rights call to a Commons ridiculous. And more than
:07:04. > :07:05.
:07:05. > :07:13.at, a danger to harmony in France. A book was written two years before
:07:13. > :07:23.me. She was talking of that it in exactly the same words. This is an
:07:23. > :07:23.
:07:23. > :07:30.argument between right and left. I am sorry, but just to tell you,
:07:30. > :07:35.this is an all story. I have said many time afterwards what is at
:07:35. > :07:39.stake for all of us. You are concerned as he and concerned. It
:07:39. > :07:49.is overcapacity in France and the United Kingdom, everywhere in
:07:49. > :07:49.
:07:49. > :07:55.Europe to be cautious to put all kinds of extremism. You talked of
:07:55. > :08:03.that people not agreeing with me. But many French people, using some
:08:03. > :08:08.people, are totally convinced that the necessity about being cautious.
:08:08. > :08:15.That was the only message of the story. You brought up the issue of
:08:15. > :08:20.and a white racism. 2000 and Haughey wrote a book about it,
:08:20. > :08:26.saying that it is a growing problem in French towns. It is something
:08:26. > :08:34.that nobody talks about. People do or not French are being painted as
:08:34. > :08:40.the victims of racism. But it is the white people who are suffering.
:08:40. > :08:50.This book I wrote a long page on the question of racism. And the
:08:50. > :08:59.necessity for us to be very tough against all kinds of xenophobia. I
:08:59. > :09:04.wrote a but that in the book. I was totally informed about what I wrote.
:09:04. > :09:12.If you do not talk about the totality of what I said, it is not
:09:12. > :09:17.the reality. But could you tell us what to think about that snail?
:09:17. > :09:27.There and in the suburbs with this kind of problem exists. Eight years
:09:27. > :09:27.
:09:27. > :09:36.ago a group of French philosophers wrote an article about the problem
:09:36. > :09:46.of racism. They woo calling to opinion defect that this is
:09:46. > :09:58.
:09:58. > :10:06.dangerous. Could do you accept that this is a much greater problem a
:10:06. > :10:12.month the non-white community? Cases for entire Muslim racism rose
:10:12. > :10:17.last year by 30%. That is still very high. A disproportionate
:10:17. > :10:22.number of France's ethnic minorities might become unemployed.
:10:22. > :10:32.Discrimination is in practice, making a difference. You accept
:10:32. > :10:37.that? I have a no problem with all that. I am here in your country,
:10:37. > :10:42.visiting a prime minister. I am not totally sure it is necessary to
:10:42. > :10:49.make half of the interview about this. This was a book I wrote a
:10:49. > :10:54.year ago. It was an important debate. I think all of us should
:10:54. > :10:59.take into account the fact that we like democracy. We have to be very
:10:59. > :11:07.cautious with all kinds of racism and intolerance. You have in front
:11:07. > :11:15.of you somebody who has talked about tolerance and respect. At the
:11:15. > :11:19.start of the into the EU brought up the importance of integration.
:11:19. > :11:25.David Cameron is on the record many times saying things about the
:11:25. > :11:35.immense contribution that British Muslims make to society. But
:11:35. > :11:35.
:11:36. > :11:40.looking at... I did a lot for this in my city. Looking that perhaps
:11:40. > :11:46.you are more right-wing than the vast majority of people in France,
:11:46. > :11:52.let us look at the issue of gay marriage. We saw the war on the gay
:11:52. > :12:00.marriage and adoption being passed in February. -- will Mac. Were you
:12:00. > :12:08.on the wrong side of history? me emphasise, there is no real
:12:08. > :12:14.problem with gay marriage in France. The question is about adoption. Let
:12:14. > :12:22.us be precise on this question. The majority of people are all right
:12:22. > :12:31.and in favour with the gay marriage. But the majority are against
:12:31. > :12:36.adoption. Medically assisted procreation. On these this --
:12:36. > :12:42.issues, I was opposed to that. you are not opposed to gay
:12:42. > :12:49.marriage? But you were. The real problem was not the problem of
:12:49. > :12:55.marriage. Most of us said that we can find a Civil Union or marriage,
:12:55. > :12:59.whatever, to make sure that there are equal rights between
:12:59. > :13:06.heterosexual and homosexual. The main question, the question is at
:13:06. > :13:12.stake, is the question of affiliation and adoption. And the
:13:12. > :13:21.government accepted a compromise on that. When it comes to assisted
:13:21. > :13:30.reproductive technology, fertility treatment f?I ? treatment fuples,
:13:30. > :13:34.will be no state assistance for such medical treatments. It is
:13:35. > :13:39.accepted that the vast majority of people were opposed to that step.
:13:39. > :13:48.The government's position is a bit ambiguous. It has at least
:13:48. > :13:58.recognised were to have said. has included in the more Mac that
:13:58. > :13:59.
:13:59. > :14:09.full adoption, that is the adoption of the right wing. I said to
:14:09. > :14:10.
:14:10. > :14:20.specifically gay marriage. Second, there is an ambiguity in the
:14:20. > :14:31.
:14:31. > :14:36.question about medically assisted And gay rights activists say they
:14:36. > :14:41.adoption, they want it to go further, to get a government
:14:41. > :14:45.assistance, so they can get their own biological children. Going back
:14:45. > :14:49.to gay marriage specifically, because I except the issue of
:14:49. > :14:54.adoption and assisted reproduction is something that is still being
:14:54. > :14:59.debated, but on gay marriage, you were on the wrong side that the
:14:59. > :15:09.vast majority in people accepted gay marriage. Why are you supposed
:15:09. > :15:09.
:15:09. > :15:14.to do it? I would not say that wrong. I think that we can respect
:15:14. > :15:21.each other. All the message that I tried to convey all along this
:15:21. > :15:30.debate, which was a very difficult debate, was to say, please, respect
:15:30. > :15:35.each other. Do not consider whether you are for the marriage, you are
:15:35. > :15:40.modern, or whether you are against, you are right take. Do not say that
:15:40. > :15:47.one is right or wrong. -- archaic. I condemned all sorts of violence.
:15:47. > :15:54.I hate home a phobia. I said we had a real difficulty with the question
:15:54. > :15:58.of affiliation, and this question, has not been debated. But on gay
:15:58. > :16:01.marriage, you were out there on the streets protesting with the
:16:01. > :16:07.demonstrators, and there were people like Francois Fillon, who
:16:07. > :16:11.was your rival for the leadership, who has now buried the hatchet and
:16:11. > :16:16.staying in the United Party, but even he said he was not going out
:16:16. > :16:22.on the streets. If you have an issue with this, you are a
:16:22. > :16:27.parliamentarian, I do it out in parliament. There were 150
:16:27. > :16:31.parliamentarians that went on the street. He said he would not do it
:16:31. > :16:37.because he was the former prime minister and that's all. That he
:16:37. > :16:46.was respecting the people. This is not a debate between us. We
:16:46. > :16:54.respected each other. One wanted to be on the street and one did not.
:16:54. > :17:03.It is a question of values. This debate was important. It is now
:17:03. > :17:07.over. Explain to us, the French justice minister, at it addresses a
:17:07. > :17:12.situation of flagrant inequality in the condition of marriage goes
:17:12. > :17:17.unchanged, nothing will change for heterosexual couples. Explain why
:17:17. > :17:23.you are so it a poster to gay marriage. I was not a poster to gay
:17:23. > :17:30.marriage, I was a poster to the question of adoption. A gay
:17:30. > :17:36.marriage is all right for a big part of my own party. There is no
:17:36. > :17:41.debate. Sorry about that again. That is good and we want to know
:17:41. > :17:48.where you stand on it. I told you and hold you, the French media, it
:17:48. > :17:54.is not a real debate. Have you been out protesting on the gay marriage
:17:54. > :18:04.and adoption law, given the terrible situation in the economy?
:18:04. > :18:04.
:18:04. > :18:09.Isn't that a huge headache for everyone? I am very mobilised on
:18:09. > :18:17.this question in Parliament and the media and everywhere. All the
:18:17. > :18:23.countries in Europe are worried. The high level of unemployment, the
:18:23. > :18:28.members in Europe is a problem. That is why we are thinking about
:18:29. > :18:35.the future of free up. We had this discussion with David Cameron. --
:18:35. > :18:42.future of Europe. I am interested in the speech that he delivered in
:18:42. > :18:47.January. I do not agree with everything that he says, but I
:18:47. > :18:55.share with him and Angela Merkel the idea that we need to thing
:18:55. > :18:58.together about the way we can to transform this fantastic
:18:58. > :19:05.construction which is the European Union, but it has to face new
:19:05. > :19:10.challenges. We need to modernise it. I think we must transform Europe in
:19:10. > :19:16.order to say, how can we be more efficient in competitiveness, in
:19:16. > :19:21.protection of our citizens. It is a question of immigration,
:19:21. > :19:25.integration, security. I want to ask you on this issue of taxation.
:19:25. > :19:35.When you have President Francois Hollande saying that anyone who
:19:35. > :19:45.earns over one million euros in you back hi?I ? you back hi am
:19:45. > :19:46.
:19:46. > :19:50.in the opposition party. I was interviewed, a big honour, at the
:19:50. > :19:56.BBC, I would not be too critical of the President of my country, but
:19:56. > :20:03.the only th?I ? the only that I do not agree with the choice that
:20:03. > :20:11.he made to increase taxes. 32 billion euros of taxes. On the high
:20:11. > :20:21.earners. It is not realistic. It will be very difficult for him,
:20:21. > :20:21.
:20:21. > :20:26.constitutionally, to pass this law, as it is, it is difficult. But he
:20:26. > :20:31.has advanced it. And that your party, or you're in a posing it, I
:20:31. > :20:35.tried to subscribe to the idea that a lot of people have about your
:20:35. > :20:41.party, that it is the courtyard bling bling. It caused a great deal
:20:41. > :20:48.of problems for President Nicolas Sarkozy. Perhaps you are too close
:20:48. > :20:52.to the rich and famous and wealthy. This debate is not a good one. The
:20:52. > :20:58.problem is not to say whether we are close to the beach or not, the
:20:58. > :21:04.question is how we can bring back jobs or fairness. -- the wealthy.
:21:04. > :21:11.How can we be more attractive, more family onshore? This is exactly the
:21:11. > :21:16.programme that we are building now. -- more value. To show that France
:21:16. > :21:21.has put it -- fantastic potential, industrial potential, Nuclear
:21:21. > :21:27.Engineers, centres of research, and what we need now is to implement
:21:27. > :21:33.structural reforms. We need to decrease public spending, been more
:21:33. > :21:38.flexibility in the labour market. He is taking those steps. The IMF
:21:38. > :21:48.Chief of for France has up plaudit President Hollande for the number
:21:48. > :21:48.
:21:48. > :21:56.of things he has initiated. He says that France needs to be reformed.
:21:56. > :22:03.He has been applauded for at least acknowledging that. When Mr
:22:03. > :22:06.Hollande delivered at this beach, I said that if he accepts a sheet to
:22:07. > :22:13.change the policy and to implement structural reforms, I will support
:22:13. > :22:18.him. -- a shift. But it is not the situation at the moment. Coming
:22:18. > :22:26.back to Francois Fillon which was your rival, he is on the record as
:22:26. > :22:29.saying that in 2017, he will stand for President no matter what. If
:22:29. > :22:38.Nicolas Sarkozy were to make a comeback, you would stand aside for
:22:38. > :22:43.him. Is that still the situation? Definitely. But 2017 is a long time.
:22:43. > :22:47.We will have primaries in every it -- just like every country in the
:22:48. > :22:55.world. And we will have to win many mid-term elections, and local
:22:55. > :22:58.elections. We also have European elections. We have decided to work
:22:58. > :23:05.together with David Cameron. My party and the Conservative Party
:23:05. > :23:12.have to think about what we can do with Europe in the future. So you
:23:12. > :23:19.are not ruling it out? You may stand in the 2017 elections? I am
:23:19. > :23:29.sharing my party until the end of 2015. Many local elections before
:23:29. > :23:31.
:23:31. > :23:36.that. So it is a possibility. So we could see you both running side by
:23:36. > :23:43.side, splitting the vote? Maybe. But we will have primaries before
:23:43. > :23:48.that. Then we will only have one candidate. Am I talking to the
:23:48. > :23:53.future President of France, briefly? We never know. My task is