:00:17. > :00:25.seventeen year old Trayvon Martin. Arm the Democrats have finally
:00:25. > :00:31.driving African the dinosaurs to extinction? A Prize For African
:00:31. > :00:39.leadership has been awarded a six times in six years. So you find in
:00:39. > :00:43.Africa to create and the price. Ibrahim Index of African Governance
:00:43. > :00:48.suggests things are getting better. Some worry that China's willingness
:00:49. > :00:57.to lend money no-strings attached is encouraging politicians to
:00:57. > :01:07.revert to their bad old way. His Mo Ibrahim's challenge being
:01:07. > :01:28.
:01:28. > :01:33.You said recently that Africa has some wonderful leaders now but we
:01:33. > :01:41.still haven't dinosaurs - what is the balance across the Continent?
:01:41. > :01:48.Things are improving. We are not there yet. We have a leadership
:01:48. > :01:56.deficit, frankly. But things are much later than the 60s, 70s and
:01:56. > :02:01.80s. We are moving forward but not at the pace I would hope to see.
:02:01. > :02:04.Marley Democratic of Congo, central Africa Republic, quite a lot of
:02:04. > :02:12.countries where the quality of leadership and stability still
:02:12. > :02:17.seems to be lacking? That is true that Africa's 54 countries - we
:02:17. > :02:22.have problems in the three or four countries. It is much better than
:02:22. > :02:26.before. We used to have problems in eight or nine countries. The
:02:26. > :02:31.complex art coming down. The number of failed states is coming down.
:02:31. > :02:38.We're not out of the woods yet. We are moving forward but we need a
:02:38. > :02:42.more determined to push. If the number is so small, of the
:02:42. > :02:47.countries holding Africa back all damaging its reputation, it is
:02:47. > :02:51.surprising that it Ibrahim and prize's first awarded in 2005 has
:02:51. > :02:58.only been awarded in a certain number of years, including last
:02:58. > :03:02.year it was not awarded - 3 is it has been awarded and three is not.
:03:02. > :03:12.If it is only a minority of political leaders holding it back.
:03:12. > :03:17.This is a prize for excellence. is not for somebody who has done it
:03:17. > :03:22.for the job. You need to do an outstanding job. To move the
:03:22. > :03:27.country dramatically forward. So we are looking for excellence.
:03:27. > :03:33.Excellence by its nature is hundred -- rare. Excellence for a former
:03:33. > :03:40.head of government to be democratically elected. Perhaps the
:03:40. > :03:45.criteria is it too narrow? We have set a high bar. It is not because
:03:45. > :03:49.you are African that we except those standards. We are setting
:03:49. > :03:54.high standards for the leaders. Standards which Europe itself
:03:54. > :03:59.should aspire to. As I said before, look around Europe, in the last six
:03:59. > :04:06.years, if he were to offer prices for excellence in leadership -
:04:07. > :04:14.would you find one of four leaders? Nicolas Sarkozy in France, maybe.
:04:14. > :04:19.Libya, Portugal, Denmark. Gordon Brown? There are lots of people you
:04:20. > :04:25.could name. We are looking not for just a job done but for real
:04:25. > :04:29.excellence. In all areas of governance. People they can change
:04:29. > :04:35.a country. You have said that we have to get out of the assumption
:04:35. > :04:41.of that leaders are Farrow's. They're human beings. If you have a
:04:41. > :04:45.price that is so difficult to award, you not encouraging it hagiography
:04:45. > :04:50.- of these prizes for excellence, exceptional leadership there for
:04:50. > :04:54.these people are something so special that they have to be
:04:54. > :05:04.treated in a special way? If you look at how leaders come to power,
:05:04. > :05:05.
:05:05. > :05:10.in Africa for example, people come to power either fighting the push,
:05:10. > :05:15.liberation movements, through elections - which is increasingly
:05:15. > :05:20.happening - we have a various parties etc. To effect a political
:05:20. > :05:26.change in at that landscape is a matter of time. It takes time for
:05:26. > :05:29.what we see now, since this new Africa has started to appear - only
:05:29. > :05:34.a few years ago the landscape changed in Africa, what we're
:05:34. > :05:41.seeing now is a lot of young people, wonderful young people, starting to
:05:41. > :05:47.think of politics as something Honourable. Politics used to be a
:05:47. > :05:57.dirty word, a really dirty work - a politician was someone he did not
:05:57. > :05:58.
:05:58. > :06:03.trust, second only to... It still remains so. A former banker said
:06:03. > :06:09.that in 2009, corruption is number one, 2 and 3 in Africa. People like
:06:09. > :06:17.that wonder how much as sexually change. I just take issues about
:06:17. > :06:23.that statement about corruption being number one, 2 and 3 in Africa.
:06:23. > :06:26.Sean is Prussian number one, 2 and 3 in the world. -- corruption.
:06:26. > :06:36.Africa has not cornered the market in corruption. For every corrupt
:06:36. > :06:43.
:06:43. > :06:47.African official, there are 20, 30, corrupt Western business people
:06:47. > :06:52.whatever... That is the difference. The accusation that into many
:06:52. > :06:57.African countries, even now, there are political leaders who are on
:06:57. > :07:02.the take. It is a minority now.But they are still there. Of course
:07:02. > :07:06.they're still there but it is a minority. There is no magic wand
:07:06. > :07:11.which will change everything overnight. There are still corrupt
:07:11. > :07:17.people - a smaller number, on a much smaller scale of corruption.
:07:17. > :07:22.There is a sea-change. The transparency, the social media, the
:07:22. > :07:28.new technology etc, everybody is starting naked in now. We are under
:07:28. > :07:35.this harsh light. It is difficult to think of Africa as it was before
:07:35. > :07:39.and let us be frank, on the issue of corruption, you guys need to do
:07:39. > :07:46.your work we're doing our work. not here to defend the West for
:07:47. > :07:52.Europe. Or China or anybody else. The price has not been awarded - it
:07:52. > :08:01.was not award at last year, a former colleague wrote an article
:08:01. > :08:09.in which he worked through the list of potential. Zambia is facing
:08:09. > :08:17.corruption. And so on and someone. The pickings are slim, he says.
:08:17. > :08:21.Even this year, he was is eligible? Kenya, Robert Mugabe if it loses
:08:21. > :08:30.the election, he raises the question of whether, again this
:08:30. > :08:34.year, this price should not be awarded? I am not a member of the
:08:34. > :08:39.prize committee. This is a question for the prize committee. I have to
:08:39. > :08:43.be careful, I cannot indulge in naming names because the board
:08:43. > :08:47.appointed a wonderful committee. You are separate from them. You are
:08:47. > :08:53.viewed as a private citizen. really cannot undermined what
:08:53. > :09:03.they're doing. My personal feeling is that it is a very difficult job
:09:03. > :09:03.
:09:03. > :09:08.because it is not just based on some one which has left a
:09:08. > :09:15.democratically. It is a prerequisite. By what you have done
:09:15. > :09:20.in the area of economic development, jobs, education, health, please.
:09:20. > :09:26.You except it is going to be slim pickings. So what? This is not our
:09:26. > :09:30.problem. It is a challenge. It is a challenge for the African leaders
:09:30. > :09:35.to rise to. It is a challenge we are offering to the leaders and
:09:35. > :09:41.what I believe is that a new generation is coming but it takes
:09:41. > :09:44.time for them to coming to power and to graduate. It will take time.
:09:44. > :09:50.You obviously see the prize as one of the incentives for doing that.
:09:50. > :09:54.For people thought -- who've left office but will come to that in a
:09:54. > :10:00.moment. In a recent interview you said that what we wanted out of the
:10:00. > :10:05.prize is the raw attention of government leadership. People
:10:05. > :10:11.asking why did that and I win and not out guy. Once the civil side
:10:11. > :10:17.gets hold of the issue, your job as done. Therefore it may be you do
:10:17. > :10:23.not need the price anymore. I would love to save my money. Maybe it has
:10:23. > :10:33.had its day. No, I think the view is that the price is important for
:10:33. > :10:35.
:10:35. > :10:41.a number of reasons. -- prize. Africa it has a bad reputation. We
:10:41. > :10:46.do not deserve it. We are not perfect, we are not even good, but
:10:46. > :10:56.we need to present to the world role models different to that.
:10:56. > :10:58.
:10:59. > :11:03.Everywhere I go, I ask, do you know such-and-such to make these are
:11:03. > :11:10.three lorries. But people do not know. You mentioned Robert Mugabe
:11:10. > :11:19.and other people... He left Office so it makes him eligible. They need
:11:19. > :11:24.to know people not only for bad reasons but for good reasons.
:11:24. > :11:29.at the first prize holder received it. Someone said, you made millions
:11:29. > :11:37.of dollars from the sweat and blood of millions of Africans. If you
:11:37. > :11:41.want to return, their schools, dispensaries that need to be built.
:11:41. > :11:47.Do not Robert poor Peter to pay rich poor. These leaders are
:11:47. > :11:53.already wealthy. They are getting $5 million over ten years. $200,000
:11:53. > :12:00.for life, $200,000 for public activities. They do not actually
:12:00. > :12:08.have to do anything. Two things to rise. I do not make money out of
:12:08. > :12:14.the sweat of people. A lot of people tell me, all this thing you
:12:14. > :12:19.doing with the foundation does much less what Africa than what you're
:12:19. > :12:24.mobile phones did. They did a wonderful job. I am returning the
:12:24. > :12:29.money I made back to Africa. It is not a question of robbing. We do
:12:29. > :12:32.not rock anybody. We are in a business. We never made bribes.
:12:32. > :12:38.have a well-established reputation for that. The rules to set down for
:12:38. > :12:44.people who manage a business without even paint facility fees.
:12:44. > :12:47.That has taken his weight. But the point is, money effectively, you
:12:47. > :12:51.are giving it to people who frankly do not need it and there are better
:12:51. > :13:00.ways to improve government in Africa. The answer is simple. All
:13:00. > :13:08.the money I have would not really solve or riven start to solve the
:13:08. > :13:13.issues in education, health, Development. What we want to do is
:13:13. > :13:18.to use resources, revenues - trillions of dollars per year, how
:13:18. > :13:26.are we spending it? This is the money we need to build schools. It
:13:26. > :13:31.is how we deliver through good governance to serve people. We
:13:31. > :13:36.ended up building many, schools and hospitals. That is the intelligent
:13:36. > :13:43.way to do developments. leadership is in port, why have you
:13:43. > :13:49.not run for politics? The essence of what we're trying to do is that
:13:49. > :13:54.it is possible in this well for people to use their money and
:13:54. > :14:00.effort for no personal benefit. I am not seeking a title. I am not
:14:00. > :14:04.seeking a job. I'm not seeking anything from anybody. It makes us
:14:04. > :14:09.credible and genuine. But if I'm doing this in order to run for
:14:09. > :14:16.President in Sudan or to get a job here of May, that would make me a
:14:16. > :14:20.cunning, selfish person. It would persuaded to run? Absolutely.Do
:14:20. > :14:24.you see an analogy to be drawn between cellular phone technology
:14:24. > :14:26.in where one child can be used simmered fancied by many people
:14:26. > :14:32.which has set his but the secret of your success and the way African
:14:32. > :14:36.politics is changing? It is an you concert. One figure you quoted is
:14:36. > :14:43.that half of the people in Africa alone 19 years of age and they are
:14:43. > :14:48.armed with my golf finds. This is the new dynamics of Africa. We have
:14:48. > :14:58.a totally different demography from the world. If you look at the
:14:58. > :15:02.Olympics in London, I was here, it was wonderful, by the way, all
:15:02. > :15:08.these competitors - a 64-year-old Japanese. The youngest was a 14-
:15:08. > :15:14.year-old African. That summarises the situation for Africa. We are a
:15:14. > :15:19.very young Continent. Do you thank you leaders have grasped that yet?
:15:19. > :15:23.What we need to focus on now is our young people. We need better
:15:23. > :15:33.education, better training for our people and to create the jobs for
:15:33. > :15:39.
:15:39. > :15:42.them. That is what we need to focus People regard the Arab Spring as an
:15:42. > :15:48.economic story as much as a political one - could that be
:15:48. > :15:54.repeated below this are Ricky Petterd yes. People called us and
:15:54. > :15:59.said, we are looking at this and Tunisia is not doing so badly, why
:15:59. > :16:03.are they having this problem? was number eight and Tunisia number
:16:03. > :16:08.nine...? We looked at this and found something very strange.
:16:08. > :16:14.Tunisia was doing very well economic way and doing very well in
:16:14. > :16:24.human development. They had the best educated people. On the
:16:24. > :16:32.continent. Literacy is amazing in Tunisia. But the country where
:16:32. > :16:38.those educated looked around and saw corruption and the lack of
:16:38. > :16:42.opportunity and the lack of jobs - then you have a major problem. We
:16:42. > :16:49.published a report and said it to look at the other countries. We
:16:49. > :16:59.found that North Africa was the region with the most unbalanced
:16:59. > :17:09.development. On the four legs, economics, education, health, human
:17:09. > :17:09.
:17:09. > :17:13.development, democracy, the rule of law. If you have this unbalanced
:17:13. > :17:20.development, it is untenable in the social fabric. All of North Africa
:17:20. > :17:28.had this problem. One month later, Egypt happened. Tahrir Square. It
:17:28. > :17:35.shows the instabilities. We say to our colleagues in Africa to watch
:17:35. > :17:38.out. Interesting new pressures are facing Africa recently. One of the
:17:38. > :17:41.reasons for the economic development we are seeing is the
:17:41. > :17:48.relationship with China. There are one million Chinese people living
:17:48. > :17:58.in Africa. The trade was worth $198 billion last year. Is there enough
:17:58. > :17:59.
:17:59. > :18:05.transparency in that relationship? No. What is lacking?We really need
:18:05. > :18:12.China... China is very welcome. We need more friends and more partners
:18:12. > :18:17.in development. More trade partners as well. China is going through a
:18:17. > :18:21.learning process, of course. It just came into the world and it is
:18:21. > :18:31.now a superpower and is throwing its weight around. They need to
:18:31. > :18:38.
:18:38. > :18:43.understand how it works in Africa. I always joke that we have these
:18:43. > :18:48.people - the People's Republic of China, let us exercise the people.
:18:48. > :18:56.We need more engagement between the Chinese and the African people
:18:56. > :19:00.instead of having this relationship where there is a dictator at the
:19:00. > :19:06.expense... China must learn. Perhaps Africans have to learn as
:19:06. > :19:10.well. The governor of that Nigerian central bank wrote in March that it
:19:10. > :19:14.was time for Africans took wake up to their romance with China. China
:19:14. > :19:18.takes our primary goods and sells us manufactured ones - the essence
:19:18. > :19:22.of colonialism. Africa is opening itself up to a new form of
:19:22. > :19:31.imperialism. In coolers an democracy do not tend to sit
:19:31. > :19:38.together well. He is one of the most wonderful African thinkers.
:19:38. > :19:45.Last week, he won the prize of the best central Governor in Africa.
:19:45. > :19:50.the correct? Duet large extent, I agree with him. We have to be
:19:50. > :19:55.careful. We need to not go from one ruler to another war we need to be
:19:56. > :20:01.friendly. Chinese to go from where the West ended, not from where the
:20:01. > :20:06.West started. There is a learning process and I do not think that it
:20:06. > :20:12.is that intention or a lack of understanding of what is...
:20:12. > :20:15.(CROSSTALK). John Kerry, the US Secretary of State was on this
:20:16. > :20:20.programme back in May. He said that the involvement of some countries
:20:20. > :20:25.here was not as transparent as the US and can in fact undermine
:20:25. > :20:29.democracy. He declined to say if he was talking about China but did not
:20:29. > :20:32.deny it. He said that they need to be thoughtful about the standards
:20:32. > :20:37.you are living up to because you do not want to lose sovereignty and
:20:37. > :20:41.that must be the feel for African countries. There is too much of a
:20:41. > :20:45.willingness that the Chinese will give us money and we do not have to
:20:45. > :20:53.worry about human rights unlike the Americans and Europeans. Better
:20:53. > :20:57.stick with them. The reality of this situation impose itself. China
:20:57. > :21:03.find itself embroiled in the problems in Sudan with the oils.
:21:03. > :21:08.Workers have been kidnapped. There are problems in other countries.
:21:08. > :21:15.150 people are missing in Ghana. It is waking up to the reality of what
:21:15. > :21:20.it means to get involved in Africa. A professor in the African progress
:21:20. > :21:25.panel said in May that it -- that there is a tendency for African
:21:25. > :21:29.governments to fall back into old habits. For all of the pressure
:21:29. > :21:32.that Shoreham fly through the index and the encouragement with the
:21:32. > :21:38.prize... A la Peter and he's a good friend of mine but that is not
:21:38. > :21:45.accurate. -- I have loved Peter. The main issues here is that people
:21:45. > :21:50.need to understand that the rise of civil society in Africa is
:21:50. > :21:54.irreversible. We now have millions and millions of young people,
:21:54. > :21:57.everybody carrying them mobile- phone and communicating with us and
:21:57. > :22:03.taking photographs and organising themselves - it is a different
:22:03. > :22:09.world in which we live. All of us all bald guys, with the white hair,
:22:09. > :22:12.if it is not our world. Even balding guys like me. It is true.
:22:12. > :22:16.It is not our world. It is the young people who are running the
:22:16. > :22:21.show and they are better educated than us and better connected than
:22:21. > :22:26.ours and they do not take crap from anybody. President Obama is coming
:22:26. > :22:30.to Africa later in the month. People may be surprised that it is
:22:30. > :22:35.at his only second visit to sub- Saharan Africa since he took office.
:22:35. > :22:38.Given what John Kerry said, are you hoping for more engagement now from
:22:38. > :22:48.the Americans? I surprised that president Obama has not been here
:22:48. > :22:54.more frequently? It is very surprising. Both! I am surprised
:22:54. > :23:02.because the African people are a bit emotional. The Americans think
:23:02. > :23:05.that Obama is theirs. We think Obama is our boy. I know that he
:23:05. > :23:10.had problems with birth certificates and stuff like that.
:23:10. > :23:15.We don't care about birth certificates. He is our son. We
:23:15. > :23:20.have not seen him around. We think that the question is not about
:23:20. > :23:24.eight or money. It is a question about engagement. He has a lot to
:23:24. > :23:29.offer our leaders. Counselling our leaders is important and people who
:23:29. > :23:34.listen to somebody like Obama. That is what I hope will be engagement
:23:34. > :23:39.with us in Africa to really go and put his arm around those guys and
:23:39. > :23:44.tell them, what does it mean to govern well? When he was in Ghana
:23:44. > :23:49.briefly, he said that the African future was up to Africans. Was the
:23:49. > :23:54.correct? Of course it is up to Africans. Africa needs friends. I'm
:23:54. > :24:03.sitting here listening to you and I'm having a good discussion with