:00:12. > :00:17.collapse of the bank. Now it is time for HARDtalk.
:00:17. > :00:20.Welcome to HARDtalk. In recent years, Turkey has been seen as a
:00:20. > :00:23.bulwark of stability and democracy in a neighbourhood disfigured by
:00:24. > :00:29.political turmoil and communal conflict. But now, Turkey is
:00:29. > :00:32.wrestling with its own demons. Mass protests against the alleged
:00:32. > :00:40.authoritarianism of the Erdogan Government, have prompted a harsh
:00:40. > :00:45.police response. My guest today is leading Turkish writer and
:00:45. > :00:55.political activist Elif Shafak. What is Turkey's spasm of unrest
:00:55. > :01:20.
:01:20. > :01:26.Elif Shafak, welcome to HARDtalk. Found you. The clashes in and
:01:26. > :01:30.around Taksim Square continued and in other parts of Turkey, we are
:01:30. > :01:38.seeing confrontation between protesters and police. What do you
:01:38. > :01:43.think is movement in Turkey is all about? I am very well -- very
:01:43. > :01:48.worried about what is happening in my country. People ask if it is an
:01:48. > :01:53.Arab Spring, a Turkish bank or a Turkish summer. I think it is a
:01:53. > :02:01.turning point for many people, not only for the government but for
:02:01. > :02:06.civil society and the media. Everybody is learning lessons.
:02:06. > :02:11.to characterise it as our mass protest movement because to numbers
:02:11. > :02:17.in Taksim Square, for example, they are in the hundreds and thousands.
:02:18. > :02:23.Maybe even 10,000 at its height. In a country of 76 million or so, with
:02:23. > :02:29.Istanbul being such a vast city, this is not a truly mass protest,
:02:29. > :02:32.is it? -- movement. It is not a mass movement but it is a big
:02:32. > :02:37.movement and it will have repercussions in the long run as
:02:37. > :02:43.well. The grouping is it started as a peaceful protest. It started to
:02:43. > :02:49.save trees, a park. When the police and sir, when the police crackdown
:02:49. > :02:53.was so harsh, it opened up a Pandora's box. What we see right
:02:53. > :02:59.now his new anger and old resentment. Stifled and suppressed
:02:59. > :03:04.resentment coming to the surface. In your fiction and in your
:03:04. > :03:08.political commentary, you talk a lot and reflect upon the meaning of
:03:08. > :03:15.freedom in modern terms. The protesters talk a lot about freedom
:03:15. > :03:18.and democracy and say that in the end it is not just about the trees
:03:18. > :03:23.and the park but that they're making a stand for freedom and
:03:23. > :03:28.democracy. How can that we when the people in power who are making
:03:28. > :03:34.decisions that they object to our democratically elected? There was a
:03:34. > :03:38.very interesting piece of research conducted by one of the leading
:03:38. > :03:42.universities in Turkey just now and they looked at the people who were
:03:42. > :03:47.one Twitter and being actively involved in the process throughout
:03:47. > :03:52.Turkey and more than 70 % of them, they concluded, are not affiliated
:03:52. > :03:58.with any political parties. This is something quite new, actually. They
:03:58. > :04:03.are so used to this duality between secularists and Islamists or the
:04:03. > :04:08.left and the right, up from the 1970s, but this is not like that.
:04:08. > :04:13.This is far beyond that. I think that they are right in bringing up
:04:13. > :04:17.the word freedom. It means a lot, especially for young people. They
:04:17. > :04:23.want to make their own decisions, basically. They want to remain as
:04:23. > :04:29.individuals. In a democracy, you can necessarily make your own
:04:29. > :04:35.decisions. You have to accept the collective opinion of the majority.
:04:35. > :04:41.When Mr Erdogan, for example, when he caused the violence terrorism,
:04:41. > :04:44.he says it appears to be a plot against democracy and his
:04:44. > :04:54.democratically elected government, you can see for he is coming from,
:04:54. > :04:57.can't you? We have seen that the Government, when you look at their
:04:57. > :05:03.background, there have been different voices coming from their
:05:03. > :05:07.party. Maybe we will hear those voices more in coming years. The
:05:07. > :05:13.Prime Minister's answer has been harsh from the beginning. He has
:05:13. > :05:18.not softened his attitude. At the same time, other party members have
:05:18. > :05:22.been apologising on Twitter, including the mayor of Istanbul. He
:05:22. > :05:26.said he was very sorry. What triggered everything was the
:05:26. > :05:31.excessive use of force by the police. After that, everything
:05:31. > :05:39.changed. The people who took to the streets, many of them are a
:05:39. > :05:44.political. They are not necessarily see this side of the demonstration.
:05:44. > :05:54.Coming back to the point about democracy, looking at social media,
:05:54. > :06:00.phrases used by some people at Taksim Square and Gezi Park,
:06:00. > :06:06.they're calling him a new Sultan, a dictator. This party has won three
:06:06. > :06:09.elections. Last term with a big majority. He is the more successful
:06:09. > :06:15.democratic politician and the history of Turkey. What right have
:06:15. > :06:20.they got to call him as Sultan and a dictator? It is important to take
:06:20. > :06:25.a step back and have the bigger picture. Everybody is very angry.
:06:25. > :06:30.We are emotional people, as Turkish people. Turkish people and Kurds,
:06:31. > :06:40.similarly. Emotions are high. That is in the government and civil
:06:41. > :06:41.
:06:41. > :06:45.society. It does not help at all. Erdogan is a sexist politician. --
:06:45. > :06:51.a successful politician. He has been very popular. He still has
:06:51. > :06:56.amazing support. Turkey is criticised but we did have fair
:06:56. > :07:01.elections. It does not fit into any other categories. It is not like
:07:01. > :07:05.many other countries in the Middle East. It is a unique case, if I may
:07:06. > :07:10.say. Your husband is a journalist. There has been much discussion of
:07:10. > :07:15.freedom of expression and the degree to which there is an
:07:15. > :07:21.authoritarian strain within his government which has curtailed free
:07:21. > :07:27.speech and stop the media reporting fairly and freely on what is
:07:27. > :07:30.happening right now. You are a writer, too, and right in
:07:31. > :07:36.newspapers. What is your sense of the degree to which he media,
:07:36. > :07:42.journalists and Turkey today, a free and able to describe what is
:07:42. > :07:46.happening? A metaphor I like to use when I think about my country is
:07:46. > :07:51.that back in the old Ottoman day, we had an Ottoman military band and
:07:51. > :07:57.what they did would take two step forwards and then one step
:07:57. > :08:02.backwards. Sometimes I think the way we democratise our country is
:08:02. > :08:05.very similar to that. By that, a mean several positive things can
:08:05. > :08:10.happen in Turkey exactly at the same time is very negative things
:08:10. > :08:14.are taking place. That makes it very confusing. When it comes to
:08:14. > :08:19.freedom of speech, freedom of press, unfortunately this Government has
:08:19. > :08:25.not fulfilled lot of promises which has ended up disappointing many
:08:25. > :08:28.liberals who had supported the Government. Today, the diversity in
:08:28. > :08:36.the media, the written and visual media, is more limited than it used
:08:36. > :08:40.to be. Do you care love what you write -- do you tailor what you
:08:40. > :08:45.write in the knowledge that if you go too far you could land yourself
:08:45. > :08:49.in deep trouble? It is not exactly like that. There is a certain
:08:49. > :08:54.amount of self-censorship and things that are difficult to talk
:08:54. > :09:00.about. Do you self censored?It is a question that ask myself and my
:09:00. > :09:05.novels. By that, I do not necessarily mean political taboos.
:09:05. > :09:10.Sexual taboos are more difficult to question in Turkey than political
:09:11. > :09:19.taboos because they are widely shared by people on all sides of
:09:19. > :09:27.the ideological spectrum. But it comes to other issues, it can be
:09:27. > :09:31.similar. -- gender issues. Self- censorship is a fascinating subject
:09:31. > :09:39.that is very relevant to Turkey today. I am aware that you yourself,
:09:39. > :09:45.after the publication of for a few novels and 2006, you faced a very
:09:45. > :09:52.real legal problems. Under the infamous Article 301 of the Turkish
:09:52. > :09:59.constitution, the one that makes illegal insulting Turkish miss, you
:09:59. > :10:05.were prosecuted. You were charged. The entire experience was so real.
:10:05. > :10:08.It was sad and Seville at the same time. These were words from a
:10:08. > :10:15.fictional character that were plucked out of context and used to
:10:15. > :10:19.prove that I had been insulting Turkey. Article 301 is problematic.
:10:19. > :10:28.It is open to interpretation. What is interesting and confusing is
:10:28. > :10:33.that it came from civil society. They said the writing insulted
:10:33. > :10:38.Turkish identity. Over time, what the Government did was not
:10:38. > :10:43.abolished the article, which was do right thing to do, but to change,
:10:43. > :10:50.to make it more difficult to people. It is still there. That seems to
:10:50. > :10:54.make a very important point. The article in question, 301, was not
:10:54. > :11:00.in his first design, coming from the Islamist side of Turkish
:11:00. > :11:04.politics. It came from the nationalist side. As I understand
:11:04. > :11:10.it, when the charges against you were ultimately drop, Prime
:11:10. > :11:16.Minister Erdogan express great pleasure and great sympathy with
:11:16. > :11:23.you. Is that not another sign that in this current stand-off in Turkey,
:11:23. > :11:29.Erdogan is being perhaps Ms characterised? We have to look at
:11:29. > :11:34.the situation beyond black and white to try to understand both
:11:34. > :11:39.Erdogan and the political party and political movement. If this is the
:11:39. > :11:45.voice of the periphery coming to the centre, and it has been issued
:11:45. > :11:48.shift in Turkey, what I find troublesome is a tendency of
:11:48. > :11:53.authoritarianism repeating itself. The previous elite, the Republican
:11:53. > :12:00.elite, was also very authoritarian in the sense that they wanted to
:12:00. > :12:04.shake the society top down. We see similar attendances again. That was
:12:04. > :12:09.the old National Republican elite that was the architect of the deep
:12:09. > :12:14.state which has been such a real and difficult phenomenon in terms
:12:14. > :12:22.of the Turkish finding their freedom. It was not the Islamists.
:12:22. > :12:27.It is tricky. I don't want to use the word is a must because I think
:12:27. > :12:31.it Bullers more than it explains, to be honest. We have to remember
:12:32. > :12:38.that this is a ten-year government. They have been in power for a very
:12:38. > :12:42.long time. There have been shifts in the rules and in the way that
:12:42. > :12:46.they ruled. At the beginning, there was more optimism. I remember one
:12:46. > :12:56.of the speeches that the Prime Minister gave and it was quite
:12:56. > :13:06.
:13:06. > :13:12.hopeful. It gave people a lot of A Usain he has abandoned that?
:13:12. > :13:20.you look at the De schools, he relies more heavily on the 50% that
:13:20. > :13:27.voted for him. -- the discourse. A bunch of people who come from all
:13:27. > :13:37.different backgrounds feel alienated, distant and be the talk.
:13:37. > :13:39.
:13:39. > :13:44.There is resistance coming from that side. Let me read you words of
:13:44. > :13:53.a fellow writer, come whom the EU know well, and who has spent his
:13:53. > :13:58.life thinking about where Turkey is going. -- Orhan Pamuk. With the
:13:58. > :14:05.rise of the Islamist movement it is the revenge of the poor against the
:14:05. > :14:11.educated Westernised Turks and the consumer society life. Is there
:14:11. > :14:16.something in there? A polarisation of those in Taksim Square today and
:14:16. > :14:21.those living in the countryside who are not perhaps as well educated or
:14:21. > :14:27.poor and look at what is happening in Istanbul and cannot identify
:14:27. > :14:32.with the protesters? We have to remember that three-quarters of
:14:32. > :14:36.Turkey's population live in towns and cities. Although the rural
:14:36. > :14:46.Auvergne a distinction is clear, nevertheless, there are many more
:14:46. > :14:48.
:14:49. > :14:53.people in the city. -- urban and rural distinction. It is full of
:14:53. > :14:59.contrasts and conflicts. What I find more difficult in Turkey today
:15:00. > :15:04.and in all my fiction and non- fiction, I tried to be an
:15:05. > :15:11.individual in taking to remain one. Unfortunate, it is a very polarised
:15:11. > :15:21.society. It is a very politicised society. For instance, to give you
:15:21. > :15:21.
:15:21. > :15:26.an example, I have defended the rights of college students 17 or 18
:15:26. > :15:33.years old to keep their heads covered - which used to be illegal.
:15:33. > :15:37.Because it is not fair and someone who cares for gender issues, I do
:15:37. > :15:42.not find it fair. This is the only way they can go into the public
:15:42. > :15:46.space. Not for children but if they are adults and can make their
:15:46. > :15:53.individual choices and they want to cover their heads, I am fine with
:15:53. > :15:57.that. I also want to say no, when a catch a some way, for instance,
:15:57. > :16:02.when they raised an announcement warning passengers not to kiss in
:16:02. > :16:07.public. I also want to criticise that. It is important for me to
:16:07. > :16:14.remain an individual and criticise the mistakes made on both sides.
:16:14. > :16:18.is not easy. A couple brief answers, please, on key social issues.
:16:18. > :16:22.Alcohol is one. A lot of people in Istanbul, some of whom are
:16:22. > :16:27.protesting against Recep Tayyip Erdogan, are furious because they
:16:27. > :16:37.have stopped the sale of alcohol during certain hours. To many
:16:37. > :16:43.others it seems feasible. Why has become such a hot issue in
:16:43. > :16:48.Istanbul? I know you want a short answers but it is difficult to
:16:48. > :16:53.answer in a sure way. People do not trust. We always have a conspiracy
:16:53. > :16:59.theories. Basically people are worried that their lifestyles will
:16:59. > :17:05.be changed. That fear is very real. Were the mistake of the government
:17:05. > :17:10.is is not to understand or try to understand that fear. What about -
:17:10. > :17:14.he talked about gender issue - here is an important one. Whether you
:17:14. > :17:20.believe prime minister mack mack has the right and he has exercised
:17:20. > :17:25.that, to call for Turkish women first of all to see it as a
:17:25. > :17:29.national duty to have three children or more but also he is
:17:29. > :17:36.adamant that abortion is wrong and has made very loud calls for
:17:36. > :17:41.Turkish women not to have abortions - indeed not even have caesarean
:17:41. > :17:46.births. Is that something we think he is adopting an authoritarian
:17:46. > :17:53.strain of government? I have been very vocal about this. I have
:17:53. > :17:57.written extensively in Turkey as well. I find abortion - when they
:17:58. > :18:02.wanted to change the implementation, I found it very problematic study
:18:02. > :18:10.cannot Sheraton the queued for legal abortion in a country --
:18:10. > :18:20.shorten the period. Weather is so much rate and violence and incest.
:18:20. > :18:25.Women who have money will go abroad, when women with poor or no money,
:18:25. > :18:29.will raise the lives to go to doctors. I'm glad the Government
:18:29. > :18:33.did not go ahead with that but I found it from making that they
:18:33. > :18:36.wanted to limit that he read for abortion. Women should be able to
:18:36. > :18:40.make that choice and we have to remember that no woman would make
:18:40. > :18:49.that choice lightly. Is it not worth remembering that, first of
:18:49. > :18:53.all, compared with all your Muslim neighbours in that Meir and Middle
:18:53. > :19:00.East, Turkish women have extraordinary levels of a freedom
:19:00. > :19:10.and Turkish women play a prominent role in business, politics and all
:19:10. > :19:11.
:19:11. > :19:18.aspect of public life. But the AK- part a KP party has lifted women's
:19:18. > :19:22.position out of poverty into a new era of prosperity? You a very
:19:22. > :19:27.bright. Absolutely. If you compare it Turkey with its neighbouring
:19:27. > :19:32.countries, definitely, Turkish and Kurdish women are very active in
:19:32. > :19:37.many fields of life. When you look at advertisements, media, academia,
:19:37. > :19:42.medicine - in all these fields women a vocal and visible. However,
:19:42. > :19:47.there is one field in which women are almost non-existence and that
:19:47. > :19:51.is politics. On a local, regional and national level, we cannot see
:19:51. > :19:55.politics. The few women who are they have to the feminise
:19:55. > :19:59.themselves in order to exist strongly in that space. That needs
:19:59. > :20:03.to change. In that sense politicians have been very
:20:03. > :20:08.reluctant to introduce positive context for women. The second thing
:20:08. > :20:15.is the language of politics in Turkey is very muscular and a very
:20:15. > :20:20.aggressive. -- it has all been about Turkey's identity and future.
:20:20. > :20:25.I remember being in Brussels, some eight years ago when Turkey's
:20:25. > :20:30.official negotiations began with the European Union for membership.
:20:30. > :20:34.The path to accession. Here we are, eight years on, and no-one believes
:20:34. > :20:40.any time soon Turkey has a realistic chance of getting inside
:20:40. > :20:46.the European Union. Do you, as a Turk, who strongly identify as with
:20:46. > :20:53.Europe and even have a home in London, do you feel let down by the
:20:53. > :21:01.European Union? I am a sad that a very odd that -- that very
:21:01. > :21:06.important socle moments of these mist. Some French politicians have
:21:06. > :21:12.been very antagonistic. In the long run, they could not see that there
:21:12. > :21:17.was no good at English in Turkey in the other direction. Because we are
:21:17. > :21:23.very emotional people, will if Europe does not want us, we do not
:21:23. > :21:27.want Europe. That's right. Look at the polls - only 70% of Turks think
:21:27. > :21:32.that Turkey will in a realistic time-frame become a member of the
:21:32. > :21:35.EU and the majority believes it should abandon its bid. Pushing
:21:35. > :21:39.taking in a different direction. That is true that until very
:21:39. > :21:44.recently, three years ago, those polls would show a completely
:21:44. > :21:49.different result. The belief and faith was so high when you look at
:21:49. > :21:53.the media, when you talk to people. These things can change. But he not
:21:53. > :21:57.think and I do not see it as internal. It might change depending
:21:57. > :22:04.on emotions, development. The question we need to ask ourselves
:22:04. > :22:13.is - do we want a European Union that is composed of very similar
:22:13. > :22:18.identities - very monolithic in itself or is coexistent around shed
:22:18. > :22:22.should -- shared values is more important? In the long run, for
:22:22. > :22:25.Europe and for the world as well, in a world we have so many people
:22:25. > :22:29.believing in a clash of civilisations, you might come up
:22:29. > :22:34.with a different model. You might but it is fair to say that right
:22:34. > :22:38.now, EU member states looking what is happening at Taksim Square - the
:22:38. > :22:42.police and protesters and dashing lumps out of each other - they are
:22:42. > :22:47.hardly going to be more inclined to hasten the membership into the EU.
:22:47. > :22:51.We see a pulverise, fragmented Turkey right now. Had as a get be
:22:51. > :22:55.on this stage? It has to get be on this stage because this
:22:55. > :23:00.polarisation is not good. Not for my country, not for the future
:23:00. > :23:06.generations and I think the only way to do that is personal to
:23:06. > :23:11.recognise the diversity, the pluralistic society. If I may put
:23:11. > :23:17.it this way, we are the grandchildren of a multi- ethnic,
:23:17. > :23:21.malty lingual and pyre. The overarching discourse was that we
:23:21. > :23:25.are a minority Society of undifferentiated individuals. The
:23:25. > :23:31.irony is that in these days we are questioning this and discourse. We
:23:31. > :23:37.are starting to say, we are all different and yet at the same time