:00:16. > :00:19.commitments on tax evasion. Welcome to HARDtalk. More than
:00:19. > :00:24.1,000 people were killed in violence in Iraq last month
:00:24. > :00:28.according to the UN. What is going wrong there? Is the country's young
:00:28. > :00:38.democracy collapsing? It appears to be dividing along religious lines,
:00:38. > :00:38.
:00:38. > :00:42.not helped by its neighbour's Syria descent into civil war. My guess
:00:43. > :00:46.today was the first leader after Saddam Hussein. His party was part
:00:46. > :00:51.of the governing coalition. He has now accuse the current Prime
:00:51. > :01:01.Minister of turning into a dictator. What had now for keeping the peace
:01:01. > :01:25.
:01:25. > :01:28.I had a lowly, welcome to HARDtalk. A faint you for having me. You had
:01:28. > :01:33.said that Iraq is slipping back into the clutches of a dangerous
:01:33. > :01:38.new one-man rule, which inevitably will lead to full dictatorship. Do
:01:38. > :01:44.think the prime minister is trying to create his own dictatorship?
:01:44. > :01:49.way he is behaving is leading to a dictatorship in the country. He is
:01:49. > :01:53.the prime minister. He is the Minister of Defence. He is the
:01:53. > :01:57.Minister of the interior. He is the head of the intelligence. His the
:01:57. > :02:02.Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces. He listens to nobody. He
:02:02. > :02:08.does not have any respect to what he has signed on the issue of
:02:08. > :02:11.power-sharing. This kind of behaviour could lead to a full-
:02:11. > :02:17.blown dictatorship. And you are suggesting he is intent on doing
:02:17. > :02:21.that? Yes, definitely.He was elected by the people twice of you
:02:21. > :02:31.-- he was elected twice by the people of Iraq. He has popular
:02:31. > :02:38.
:02:38. > :02:42.support. The last time he was not elected. Unfortunately Iran had an
:02:42. > :02:48.attitude, declaring that it was unacceptable for me or anyone else
:02:48. > :02:54.to lead the government. They emphasised the issue of forming a
:02:54. > :02:59.new coalition, which then elected him again. A coalition that you
:02:59. > :03:03.signed up to at the time. I wonder if you could explain what you think
:03:03. > :03:11.is going on in Iraq at the moment. Is it splitting along religious
:03:11. > :03:19.lines? Sectarian, not religious. Unfortunately there is a catalogue
:03:19. > :03:29.of failures from the occupation until now, including dismantling
:03:29. > :03:31.
:03:31. > :03:41.the institutions of the state, the application of procedures without
:03:41. > :03:42.
:03:42. > :03:49.judicial control. This has led to a great vacuum in Iraq. The vacuum
:03:49. > :03:57.was used by neighbouring powers to influence events in Iraq, including
:03:57. > :04:07.Iran. Iran is manipulating the Prime Minister. Know, they
:04:07. > :04:13.supported him gaining power. They want him to have the power in Iraq.
:04:13. > :04:18.The sectarian split is between Sunni and Shia Muslims.
:04:18. > :04:25.Unfortunately it is between the Shia politicians and the silly
:04:25. > :04:35.politicians. Where is it going to lead? Matej Vanko if it continues,
:04:35. > :04:41.
:04:41. > :04:51.which it looks like doing, this will definitely read to the country
:04:51. > :04:51.
:04:51. > :04:57.splitting. If things continue as they are now. The Iraqis are
:04:57. > :05:01.resisting. By and large the Iraqis are not sectarian. If you take any
:05:01. > :05:11.tribe, you will see that part of the tribe is Sunni and part of it
:05:11. > :05:16.is Shia. Really, the conflict lies within the political circles, not
:05:16. > :05:20.within the people of Iraq. Let's look within the political circles,
:05:20. > :05:23.because you make this claim and are very critical of the Prime Minister,
:05:23. > :05:33.effectively accusing him of creating his own dictatorship, and
:05:33. > :05:35.
:05:35. > :05:40.yet you are in government with him. We gave him at the time to embark
:05:40. > :05:47.on the power-sharing agreement, which he signed, I signed and other
:05:47. > :05:57.signed. Unfortunately nothing happened. By your ministers...
:05:57. > :05:58.
:05:58. > :06:02.Those who stayed on, they stayed on their own merits. The party that
:06:02. > :06:05.you lead has cabinet posts. They do not represent the party any more
:06:05. > :06:11.because we have issued orders that members of the Cabinet should
:06:11. > :06:21.withdraw from the Cabinet. How many disobeyed you? 3.So there are
:06:21. > :06:24.
:06:24. > :06:27.three people of Europe ministers, Euro -- your own party. Whatever
:06:27. > :06:33.the Prime Minister decides, they are falling. They are not
:06:33. > :06:38.answerable to our party any more. What seems very odd is that he
:06:38. > :06:44.laugh, getting more votes and more seats in Parliament than the Prime
:06:44. > :06:48.Minister's party and yet you appear to have been outmanoeuvred, not
:06:48. > :06:56.only then when the government was formed, but subsequently such that
:06:56. > :07:06.you cannot control your own party. We were outmanoeuvred by Iran,
:07:06. > :07:08.
:07:08. > :07:18.definitely. Iran played a very active role, a very important role,
:07:18. > :07:23.in supporting the other party. is a democracy, this is the thing
:07:23. > :07:28.that Iraq has. It is not a full- blown democracy yet. Is a young
:07:28. > :07:32.democracy. By your party got the most seats. How can you be blaming
:07:32. > :07:41.Iran for what happened when you were in a position to either form
:07:41. > :07:46.or not form a government with the current Prime Minister? Iran
:07:46. > :07:52.exerted a lot of pressure on the groups that had links with Iran and
:07:52. > :07:57.they decided that they are not allowing my party to take over and
:07:57. > :08:04.for government, which is contrary to the constitution and contrary to
:08:04. > :08:14.the democratic procedures. In any case there was an attempt for seven
:08:14. > :08:17.
:08:17. > :08:26.months. A lot of leaders intervened to try and convince the Iranians
:08:26. > :08:33.and the Qatari leaders -- convinced the Iranians, people from around
:08:33. > :08:37.the world, they were trying to convince Iran that they should not
:08:37. > :08:47.interfere with Iraqi internal affairs. You are blaming Iran, but
:08:47. > :08:47.
:08:47. > :08:49.there was still. That you chose to go into the government. After seven
:08:49. > :08:54.months of knot forming the government, we thought that the
:08:54. > :09:01.country needed a government and the alternative is a power-sharing
:09:01. > :09:11.agreement between us and the opposition. So we signed a power-
:09:11. > :09:20.
:09:20. > :09:25.sharing agreement. Was that a mistake? It was not good,
:09:25. > :09:30.unfortunately. We stayed in the Cabinet for a period of time, until
:09:30. > :09:35.we saw that there were no intentions to implement the
:09:35. > :09:38.agreement and by then the demonstration started in Iraq.
:09:38. > :09:46.except that part of the problem is that you couldn't control Iran
:09:46. > :09:49.Party? -- your own party. If your party formed a block that was
:09:49. > :09:53.together, then you could have had more influence than you chose to?
:09:53. > :09:59.No, because they were interferences from Outterside powers to prevent
:09:59. > :10:06.this from happening. You picked up a lot of silly votes. Do you
:10:06. > :10:12.recognise that they may feel let down by you now? We tried, and this
:10:12. > :10:17.was really an opportunity that the sun is elected the Shia and the
:10:17. > :10:21.shows that they are not sectarian. They elected you. You are a secular
:10:21. > :10:30.Shia. You have brought some is a long and tried to reach across the
:10:30. > :10:35.sectarian divides. What happened was very clear. There was Iranian
:10:35. > :10:41.influence on certain parties in Iraq. They were objecting to my
:10:41. > :10:45.party taking over. That is why I am saying that leaders tried to
:10:46. > :10:50.intervene and interfere by explaining to Iran that it is not
:10:50. > :11:00.the way to into the Iraq, but the Iranians never budged.
:11:00. > :11:01.
:11:01. > :11:04.Unfortunately what went was this -- what went with this was an this
:11:04. > :11:07.international -- the international community agreed with Iran and we
:11:07. > :11:11.had to agree because we couldn't leave the country without a prime
:11:11. > :11:16.minister. You see the international community, are you saying the
:11:16. > :11:21.Americans? Yes.Do you feel let down by the Americans? They let
:11:21. > :11:28.down the political process. They let down the democratic process.
:11:28. > :11:35.realistically what could they have done? They could have chosen their
:11:35. > :11:40.offices not to accept him as a prime minister. They should have
:11:40. > :11:46.said no, even though the majority... They should have said that we
:11:46. > :11:49.respect the constitution. Iraq was still under the chapter 7. The
:11:49. > :11:54.Security Council supported the elections and the support of the
:11:54. > :12:00.results of the elections. Then they changed their minds, once Iran
:12:00. > :12:04.started to behave in a very aggressive way against my party.
:12:04. > :12:11.sounds as though you are saying, I didn't get my way, the Americans
:12:11. > :12:16.should have put me in. The Iraqi people voted me in. Not the
:12:16. > :12:23.Americans. The Americans unfortunately, I don't know why,
:12:23. > :12:29.they agreed to what Iran was saying. They blocked the way of my party
:12:29. > :12:33.taking over. It is very simple. That is what happened. Where are we
:12:33. > :12:39.now? Week are in a situation where you say we have a man who is making
:12:39. > :12:43.moves to become the dictator of Iraq. The way he is paid --
:12:43. > :12:48.behaving will lead to a full-blown dictatorship. In democracies, you
:12:48. > :12:53.cannot see one person running three, four, five posts together at the
:12:54. > :12:57.same time. Prime minister, Commander In Chief, Minister of
:12:57. > :13:04.Defence and so on. His Iraq know better now than under Saddam
:13:04. > :13:11.Hussein? It is not that much better. We are losing 1,000 people every
:13:11. > :13:18.month from explosions and terrorist groups. Had you feel, because your
:13:18. > :13:26.long history, you're history in exile, you're history of the
:13:26. > :13:30.Americans... We need to be verified. We feel betrayed and that the Iraqi
:13:30. > :13:35.people have been cheated. They are not exercising their rights. They
:13:35. > :13:43.are not having their rights. Their rights have been confiscated.
:13:43. > :13:49.feel in any way responsible? I feel some responsibility. You regret it?
:13:49. > :13:54.I don't regret. Saddam Hussein was a dictator. It was a class
:13:54. > :13:58.dictatorship and we wanted to govern. He tried to assassinate you.
:13:58. > :14:08.You're in Surrey when you woke up one night to an axe man. I was in
:14:08. > :14:17.
:14:17. > :14:22.He was as fascinating people. He sent people to assassinate me in
:14:22. > :14:32.London. -- a fascinating. We had to get rid of him. For the sake of the
:14:32. > :14:34.
:14:34. > :14:39.Regent. It is very unfortunate.It makes us blame ourselves for
:14:39. > :14:47.listening to what had been done to Iraq after the occupation, when the
:14:47. > :14:57.country was dismantled. The sectarians prevailed. Iran took
:14:57. > :14:59.
:14:59. > :15:07.advantage of this and entered Iraq. On top of this, the execution... It
:15:07. > :15:15.was a brain could execution. It was a can year-old mistake. It still
:15:15. > :15:20.continues. As we speak. R Sunnis right if they feel they are
:15:20. > :15:30.mistreated? They are disenfranchised. Are they
:15:30. > :15:30.
:15:30. > :15:37.discriminated against? Yes, yes. A lot of shiatsu are marginalised.
:15:37. > :15:43.How have they given up on the political process? There is a
:15:43. > :15:48.general understanding. The political process does not define
:15:48. > :15:54.itself. It does not become an inclusive political process. Things
:15:54. > :15:59.will get out of hand. We are not at the point of no return it yet. But
:15:59. > :16:09.we will reach this if things continue the way they are. He would
:16:09. > :16:16.
:16:16. > :16:20.a bullet take? Today there was a blowing up of their mosque. I think
:16:20. > :16:25.Iraq would be dismembered by now. There is an election this year.
:16:25. > :16:35.There is an opportunity for the people to choose to day one. They
:16:35. > :16:38.
:16:38. > :16:43.have chosen. People are disenchanted with Iraq. They did
:16:43. > :16:49.not want to vote anymore. They do not trust politicians. They've
:16:49. > :16:55.voted for you before. They voted for me. They saw that the
:16:55. > :17:01.international community... Did not blame you? They know the facts.
:17:01. > :17:10.They know how we were a shot dead. None of the was your fault?
:17:10. > :17:15.course not. I was elected. You were elected but you have not been able
:17:15. > :17:21.to judge -- to deliver what it promised. I cannot face Iran and
:17:22. > :17:27.the US together. It is not possible. It is totally impossible. You say
:17:27. > :17:37.it is not passed the point of no return. Not yet.What is required
:17:37. > :17:39.
:17:39. > :17:46.for the Americans to get involved... no. The region is changing. There
:17:46. > :17:53.is a demise in the extremists. Syria, there is an end there. It
:17:53. > :17:58.will influence the whole region. Iran is losing a lot of power.
:17:58. > :18:04.see an end to what is happening in Syria? Others see a flow of arms
:18:04. > :18:08.and support between Iraqi is and Syrians. Yes. But the regime is
:18:08. > :18:15.finished. There is an uprising by the Syrian people. The regime is
:18:15. > :18:19.not acceptable anymore. It is changing now. You can see it in the
:18:19. > :18:24.decisions of the US. It has been favourable for the position in
:18:24. > :18:29.Syria. It will influence the whole picture and the whole region. It
:18:29. > :18:37.will alter the political landscape. Iran will not be able to dictate
:18:37. > :18:42.border once. -- dictate what it wants. The other suggestion is that
:18:42. > :18:48.one of the effects of Syria and we were talking about is that you have
:18:48. > :18:54.the country splitting up. If you have suggested it as a likelihood
:18:54. > :18:59.anyway. You could have the Sunni dominated areas, are effectively
:18:59. > :19:09.merging with a Syria. And have Iraq at splitting up. Perhaps this is
:19:09. > :19:14.
:19:14. > :19:19.the answer? It is not fared well for the Kurds. -- federal. If this
:19:19. > :19:28.scenario happens, it will lead the country into an ended civil war.
:19:29. > :19:35.And wars between various countries. Because of water, because of
:19:35. > :19:43.ideologies, because of oil and gas. This is not the answer. The answer
:19:43. > :19:51.for Iraq and the region in a can -- inclusive political process. And in
:19:51. > :19:55.respect tikka democracy and the constitution. -- and in respect to.
:19:55. > :20:04.Where is the inclusive political process? There is no inclusive
:20:04. > :20:09.political process. That is what we need. We have two important... We
:20:09. > :20:13.are not allowed to vote. They asked for provincial elections a couple
:20:14. > :20:23.of months ago. There is no political process. People are being
:20:24. > :20:27.
:20:27. > :20:33.disenfranchise. One month ago, there were escalations with the
:20:33. > :20:41.Kurds. What are you doing? You pay this picture of a disintegrating
:20:41. > :20:47.situation, what are you doing? working very hard. I am working to
:20:47. > :20:53.control the Sunnis. Trying to control the extreme west. Trying to
:20:53. > :21:01.forge new alliances with the same people. But you cannot even control
:21:01. > :21:11.members of your own party and Cabinet. We had antagonism from
:21:11. > :21:15.
:21:15. > :21:23.Iran. Our people were assassinated. In the last elections. Ten people
:21:23. > :21:29.were executed. You can see the magnitude of the war against us.
:21:29. > :21:33.Are you accusing Iran of those assassinations? I am not. I am
:21:33. > :21:41.blaming the government for not been able to protect the Iraqi people.
:21:41. > :21:47.Frankly speaking, we are not sectarian. We believe in Iraq. A
:21:47. > :21:51.federal Iraq, a United Iraq. I am not clear what difference you are
:21:51. > :22:01.making now so people can feel they should have faith and vote in the
:22:01. > :22:01.
:22:01. > :22:11.elections. He conceded a sample of the provisional at elections. --
:22:11. > :22:13.
:22:13. > :22:18.you can see it in the example. to the party. We are part of this.
:22:18. > :22:26.We played a so good that can roll it in creating this. People are
:22:26. > :22:34.seeing sectarians, they are all over Iraq. We have been trying to
:22:34. > :22:40.forge alliances with the moderate groups on all sides. Codes, Sunnis,
:22:40. > :22:50.and the rest of them. In opposite terrorism is not the answer, why is
:22:50. > :22:53.
:22:53. > :22:58.violence in freezing? -- sectarian none. -- increasing. We do not have
:22:58. > :23:08.the right economy to get the people job opportunities and to work. We
:23:08. > :23:08.
:23:08. > :23:13.do not have services. It country has been left like a ship in a
:23:13. > :23:23.stormy sea. What does that mean for elections next year? Will they be
:23:23. > :23:31.
:23:31. > :23:39.free? So could relies on security. -- security. Will they be free?
:23:39. > :23:47.Kabul they be fair? Ten people were killed from our list. They were
:23:47. > :23:51.shot dead. You paid his picture of Iraq disintegrating. You say it is
:23:51. > :23:57.not too late but it is difficult to see what would change in a
:23:57. > :24:03.country... What is changing at two things. The emergence of new
:24:03. > :24:07.alliances. It is very -- favourable. These alliances between the forces
:24:07. > :24:17.of moderation who believe in democracy. You are creating a new
:24:17. > :24:21.