:00:04. > :00:13.have died so far. Those of you latest headlines. It
:00:13. > :00:19.is no time for HARDtalk. -- it is now.
:00:19. > :00:22.Welcome to HARDtalk. Here in the Turkish capital, Ankara. My guess
:00:22. > :00:28.today is a key member of the government. The finance minister,
:00:28. > :00:33.Mehmet Simsek. Why have anti- government demonstrations erupted
:00:33. > :00:37.right across tricky like never before on to the ruling party? And
:00:37. > :00:45.after the initial crack down, actually strengthened the
:00:45. > :00:48.protesters. Now the government critics at home and abroad are
:00:48. > :00:58.criticising what they claim is an authoritarian style of political
:00:58. > :01:10.
:01:10. > :01:14.Mehmet Simsek, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. The justice and
:01:14. > :01:19.Development Party, known as the AK party, has been in power for ten
:01:19. > :01:29.years. But you have to exit that these protests are a wake-up call.
:01:29. > :01:30.
:01:30. > :01:34.Yes. The unrest of the past few weeks has certainly been on the
:01:35. > :01:42.scale that we were caught by surprise. We will come people
:01:42. > :01:49.protest. -- welcome peaceful. It is an essential part of democracy.
:01:49. > :01:59.how were you caught by surprise? Leaders tend to have a pulse on
:01:59. > :01:59.
:01:59. > :02:04.what the voters think. We are actually connected to people. My
:02:04. > :02:13.Government is a very popular government. Yes, we have been in
:02:13. > :02:22.power were for her over a decade. We have won seven elections. Three
:02:22. > :02:29.general elections, essentially. Three general elections. So why
:02:29. > :02:37.were the protests a surprise if you know what people think? Would
:02:37. > :02:44.started off as peaceful environ mental protests over a development
:02:44. > :02:53.in Istanbul turned into a very violent street level protest. I
:02:53. > :02:58.think what has happened, while the initial protest was essentially by
:02:58. > :03:04.a peaceful, law-abiding citizens concerned that the park, later on
:03:04. > :03:10.these protests were heightened by extremist groups, militant groups,
:03:10. > :03:14.even some that were involved in terrorist acts. I will ask you a
:03:14. > :03:18.bad way you think people have been protesting, but let us look at the
:03:18. > :03:23.way the Government has handled it. The security forces have been
:03:23. > :03:31.criticised inside and outside Turkey by the heavy-handed response.
:03:31. > :03:36.Is that warranted? The excessive use of force is being investigated.
:03:36. > :03:43.We have already suspended a number of police officers, as well as in
:03:43. > :03:49.number of City workers. This is a democratic country. The rule of law
:03:49. > :03:55.applies. Anybody who makes a mistake will be accountable for it.
:03:55. > :04:02.But no country will tolerate significant attacks on public
:04:02. > :04:10.property or private property. their attacks, with their waters,
:04:10. > :04:20.where the shops attacked? Newly 300 police cars were Bridge. Private
:04:20. > :04:20.
:04:20. > :04:25.property? Yes. 965 policemen were injured. Still some of them are in
:04:25. > :04:30.hospital. The Turkish Human Rights Foundation says that 5,000 people
:04:30. > :04:37.were injured. According to us, 1,200 people were accepted to
:04:37. > :04:45.hospitals. Only 55 private citizens are still being treated. Most of
:04:45. > :04:49.the injuries were very light. that is not we are hearing. We are
:04:49. > :04:54.hearing reports from Human Rights Watch and from journalists,
:04:54. > :05:00.actually witnessed things, people have got brain injuries. A dozen
:05:01. > :05:07.young people have lost their eyes because of plastic bullets. To gas
:05:07. > :05:13.cartridges have injured people. Even people from your own party, a
:05:13. > :05:21.culture minister, has said there has been excessive use of force.
:05:21. > :05:27.There have been harsh and unnecessary orders. It has made the
:05:27. > :05:35.situation worse. I think it has allowed extremist groups to hijack
:05:35. > :05:40.the protest. That is the case. We have strong evidence of that. It
:05:40. > :05:45.has been very violent. I understand you're saying that. But what I am
:05:45. > :05:53.saying is that there is clear evidence, for instance a public
:05:53. > :05:58.opinion from interviewed 5,000 protesters. It said that many
:05:58. > :06:02.people, Unionists, university students, decided to join the
:06:02. > :06:11.protests after they saw the response of the security forces. So
:06:12. > :06:20.you have made things worse. That may well be partially true. But
:06:20. > :06:27.what I am saying, at the beginning, the initial response may not be
:06:27. > :06:33.what we would have tried. But in the latter days, clearly these
:06:33. > :06:43.protests were hijacked. They were used by the extremists. It was
:06:43. > :06:44.
:06:44. > :06:51.highly violent. The police had note was but to protect the citizens. --
:06:51. > :06:56.no choice. That would be the case in any civilised nation. But the
:06:56. > :07:01.point I am making is that there are concerns over the disproportionate
:07:01. > :07:10.and excessive use of force by Turkish police. Is the
:07:10. > :07:14.disproportionate element... Some say it is important that the heavy-
:07:14. > :07:19.handed response to the protest resulted in many injuries. It is
:07:19. > :07:29.still a major part of the problem. There are still arbitrary
:07:29. > :07:38.detentions. Do you know how many people are in detention? Only 80.
:07:38. > :07:47.You rested over 2000 in London for vandalism. The point is, and the
:07:47. > :07:57.eight people are in detention. Only eight. We need to recognise that
:07:57. > :07:57.
:07:57. > :08:01.international media has represented and grossly is exaggerated events.
:08:01. > :08:06.You have to accept the fact that were to are presenting to me right
:08:06. > :08:13.now may not necessarily hold. We need to make a distinction between
:08:13. > :08:21.peaceful, law-abiding citizens. We have had their plea. The Prime
:08:21. > :08:30.Minister has already met these protesters. We hear them. We
:08:30. > :08:36.responded. But the violent, extremist, terrorist groups, in no
:08:36. > :08:41.country can they be tolerated. about those civilians who say that
:08:41. > :08:47.they are still receiving treatment. Are they the anarchists, the
:08:47. > :08:57.terrorists, the writer is that the Prime Minister referred to? Some
:08:57. > :08:58.
:08:58. > :09:04.are. And some aren't.When you have big public events like this, in any
:09:04. > :09:12.country when you have an rest on this scale, even ordinary citizens
:09:12. > :09:21.can be affected. Is it a matter of regret for the Turkish government?
:09:21. > :09:25.Of course. We regret that peaceful citizens were caught between
:09:25. > :09:32.violent protesters and police trying to contain them. No question
:09:32. > :09:37.about that. And police using excessive force. Yes, in the early
:09:37. > :09:47.days. And you will be investigating? You have already
:09:47. > :09:48.
:09:48. > :09:53.done that? Of course. In due course, there has to be investigations.
:09:53. > :10:01.police chiefs can be sacked, conceivably? Yes. If they have
:10:01. > :10:11.broken the war Mac, yes. What about the Prime Minister's popularity
:10:11. > :10:17.
:10:17. > :10:24.ratings. They have gone down by 11%. That opinion poll is full of walls.
:10:24. > :10:32.If you look at the sheer of parties, it does not add up to 100. But let
:10:32. > :10:38.us forget about that. There are numerous polls about that. Some
:10:38. > :10:43.shows support for the ruling party is still running at about 50%.
:10:43. > :10:52.Which is what you want at the elections? What about the 50% who
:10:52. > :10:59.did not bat you? To their opinions count? They do. We carer that that.
:10:59. > :11:05.We are not just about the majority. We represent everybody. My
:11:05. > :11:09.Government is a government of 76 million people. So you are not
:11:09. > :11:17.going to retreat and appeal more to social Conservatives? Absolutely
:11:17. > :11:23.not. We at the government of the entire nation. Just because people
:11:23. > :11:28.out there did not vote for us and disagree with our policies, they
:11:28. > :11:37.still deserve respect and to be heard. There are a lot of
:11:37. > :11:45.criticisms. Protesters personalised a lot of their anger on the Prime
:11:45. > :11:51.Minister. You know the kind of things. But you have an example
:11:51. > :11:54.here, that he became authoritarian. He started to act as if he had a
:11:54. > :12:03.large popular mandate was sufficient for his government to
:12:03. > :12:08.adopt laws without serious consideration. As the party built
:12:08. > :12:14.their power base, they became less likely to listen to opposing views.
:12:14. > :12:19.That is not true. Let me tell you this. The Prime Minister is a
:12:19. > :12:27.reformist. A lot of change in this country took place politically,
:12:27. > :12:31.economically and socially. It has been a product of his commitment to
:12:31. > :12:41.more fundamental rights and freedoms. More openness, more
:12:41. > :12:42.
:12:42. > :12:47.transparency. How many readers out there self imposed two terms?
:12:47. > :12:56.cannot run again as Prime Minister. Exactly. But he may run again as
:12:56. > :13:02.president. It is up to him. You are talking about hypothetical stuff.
:13:02. > :13:06.He has not put himself forward as a candidate. There has been talk that
:13:06. > :13:12.the AK party wants to change the institution to make it more
:13:12. > :13:20.presidential. The President would have new palace and could govern
:13:20. > :13:25.the country without recourse to Parliament. What you have just said
:13:25. > :13:30.is only partially true. We would like to change the constitution.
:13:30. > :13:37.But we want to change it because the current constitution was
:13:37. > :13:46.written after a military coup. We would like to boost fundamental
:13:46. > :13:52.rights and freedoms. Essentially, a constitution where every single
:13:52. > :13:56.citizen says this belongs to me, this is my constitution. A directly
:13:56. > :14:06.elected president is one of the things the AK party would like.
:14:06. > :14:08.
:14:08. > :14:13.would like people to debate various forms of executive palate. Where
:14:13. > :14:20.people to sit over a parliamentary system. The authoritarianism I have
:14:20. > :14:29.told you, they. To the constitutional changes. I'll give
:14:29. > :14:33.you another example. They do not like the fact that the AK party is
:14:33. > :14:38.focusing on the lifestyle. They do not like to hear statements from
:14:38. > :14:46.the Prime Minister that we should have three children. People should
:14:46. > :14:56.not drink. He says somebody who has a glass of wine in a week is an
:14:56. > :15:05.
:15:05. > :15:11.He said, if you drink two or three glasses of wine per week you were
:15:11. > :15:18.an art college. He corrected it.He went from two glasses to three
:15:18. > :15:23.glasses. More people have been drinking. When did this happen? It
:15:23. > :15:30.happened under our rules. What we have done, like any other civilised
:15:30. > :15:36.and democratic countries, we put some restrictions on the hours of
:15:36. > :15:42.alcohol. A I did not say anything about the hours of 6pm and 10pm.
:15:42. > :15:49.That was not the point I was making. It is those kinds of things which
:15:49. > :15:57.people 0.2 and you get someone like a professor from the University in
:15:57. > :16:00.Ankara or saying that the party is focusing on replacing secular
:16:00. > :16:07.values with Conservative interpretations of Islam. These
:16:07. > :16:13.people are not making these things up. I could get you 20 professors
:16:13. > :16:20.and would say exactly the opposite. I could get you think tanks. We are
:16:20. > :16:26.not imposing a way of life on anybody. These people, I over the
:16:26. > :16:35.last decade, had become freer, more prosperous -- prosperous and this
:16:35. > :16:40.country has become more democratic. There was emphasis on people that
:16:40. > :16:48.do not want those decisions to be removed. People want to maintain
:16:48. > :16:58.the status quo. A lot of these people have never respected a more
:16:58. > :17:00.
:17:00. > :17:05.democratic system. A system at equal footing regarding... Thinking
:17:05. > :17:11.every individual choice. No-one is detracting.
:17:11. > :17:17.The finance minister, the fact they have made huge strides economically.
:17:17. > :17:22.The fact is, you could jeopardise all that when you have people like
:17:22. > :17:28.the former chairman of Goldman Sachs St people like investors are
:17:28. > :17:34.a fragile bunch. They want returns. I put it you that you are
:17:34. > :17:40.jeopardising Turkey's desirability as a place to invest. By rebutting
:17:40. > :17:44.the critics and St... We're not rebutting the critics. The point I
:17:44. > :17:50.input into you, you're saying, there is no value to the criticism.
:17:50. > :17:53.It is made by somebody who is made outside of Turkey. You're not
:17:53. > :17:59.listening to the protesters. We have seen people from all walks of
:17:59. > :18:03.life, trade union has, gay people, even people who have previously
:18:04. > :18:10.voted for the A K party, saying they do not like the direction the
:18:10. > :18:13.party is going on. We respect that. You are not hearing me. I have said
:18:13. > :18:20.from the very beginning that there are people who disagree with our
:18:20. > :18:25.policies. When we introduce these policies, there is opposition in
:18:25. > :18:31.the government. All views are heard. When I go to the parliament to push
:18:31. > :18:36.through a piece of legislation, representatives from a very broad
:18:36. > :18:45.spectrum of think tanks, political parties, unions, they come and
:18:45. > :18:47.express their opinions. Are you listening to them? When you hear of
:18:47. > :18:53.things like the International Federation of journalists President
:18:53. > :19:01.saying the Turkish government stopped intimidating journalists,
:19:01. > :19:07.they fear censorship, we all know the figure... Censorship? The BBC
:19:07. > :19:15.was not censored. You have live coverage of events uninterrupted.
:19:15. > :19:21.There is not a single journalist right now - not a single journalist
:19:21. > :19:27.- that is in custody. But reporters without borders say 72 media
:19:27. > :19:32.personnel in Turkey - more than any other country. Some were caught
:19:32. > :19:38.robbing banks, killing people. If you are a journalist, you cannot
:19:38. > :19:43.commit any crimes? Every single one of them - if you go to the whims of
:19:43. > :19:49.the justice ministry, all those 70 people they claim to be journalists
:19:49. > :19:54.were actually involved in one form or another in a form of violence or
:19:54. > :20:01.a terrorist act. You can go. Some of these guys have been prosecuted.
:20:01. > :20:08.They are not in custody. I put this to you now, again, someone from I
:20:08. > :20:12.think tank says that at first there was no risk to Recep Tayyip
:20:12. > :20:19.Erdogan's rule but if it continues to be defined, he will speak in the
:20:19. > :20:23.A K party. The former Culture and Tourism Minister says now it is
:20:23. > :20:28.time for the party to be self critically aware. It Recep Tayyip
:20:28. > :20:33.Erdogan turns out to be a liability and not a vote winner, could it be
:20:33. > :20:38.asked by his party to step aside? He is elected by Elin it --
:20:38. > :20:44.delegates. If they choose not to a lectin they have the free will to
:20:44. > :20:50.do so. Has it been weakened by the protests? He has been strengthened.
:20:50. > :20:56.The vast majority - the silent majority - understand that this
:20:56. > :21:05.violence, these demonstrations, have gone beyond simple issues of,
:21:05. > :21:13.let's say, a park or interference with the way of life. Just to give
:21:13. > :21:17.you some colour - the Prime Minister is still very popular, the
:21:17. > :21:22.Prime Minister is here because people choosing. He's not here
:21:22. > :21:28.despite people. He is here and in fact his entire power base is from
:21:28. > :21:35.people. It is not a wake up Coloroll it is business as usual?
:21:35. > :21:40.It is a wake-up call that we need to... Like local decisions like
:21:40. > :21:47.Gezi Park - we need have more dialogue with local residents
:21:47. > :21:53.before we come up... And listen to the protesters. Yes, we are.Turkey
:21:53. > :21:58.is demanding answers from the government because of allegations
:21:58. > :22:03.its surveillance agency expired on somebody, including you, when you
:22:03. > :22:13.attended the G20 summit in 2009 in London. What do you know about
:22:13. > :22:19.this? We are shocked and appalled. These are allegations. If it is
:22:19. > :22:28.proven to be true, it is a big scandal. Why? Because Turkey and
:22:28. > :22:33.the United Kingdom are long-term allies. You know, we were very,
:22:33. > :22:38.very surprised to hear about these allegations. The ministry of
:22:38. > :22:43.foreign affairs is now in touch to see whether something like that did
:22:43. > :22:47.take place or not. I am really surprise why they would need to do
:22:47. > :22:51.that. If my British counterpart wanted to know my view on any
:22:51. > :22:57.specific issue, I would have been more than happy to share my view
:22:57. > :23:03.with him. There was no need to basically do this type of stuff.
:23:03. > :23:08.Due credit for a diplomatic fall- out if these allegations are
:23:08. > :23:16.substantiated? If they are substantiated, it would not look
:23:16. > :23:26.good as far as Turkey - British relations. These relations are
:23:26. > :23:33.built on mutual trust. And confidence. It would not look... It
:23:33. > :23:42.would look very poorly. Certainly. A quick final point on the practice.
:23:42. > :23:46.Do you think that is the end of it? The violent protests have subsided.
:23:46. > :23:54.Police will produce a more than welcome. They are an essential part
:23:54. > :23:59.of democracy. Do you think the protesters have been strengthened?
:23:59. > :24:04.The real protesters are out there. We will listen to them. We have
:24:04. > :24:09.already listen to them. The Prime Minister met them twice. The
:24:09. > :24:14.President met them. Do you know why? We listen to them because we
:24:14. > :24:20.agree that the fate of that art should be decided not by the
:24:20. > :24:25.government that by... But it has gone beyond and Gezi Park. Would
:24:25. > :24:30.you listen to people more now? course we will listen to them. We