:00:18. > :00:23.One of the ironies of the so-called crisis of capitalism and over the
:00:23. > :00:29.past five years is that moderate left-of-centre parties, those
:00:29. > :00:33.critical of unregulated capitalism, have often not prospered. Opinion
:00:33. > :00:37.polls suggested Germany and Australia are about to do the same.
:00:37. > :00:43.A left-wing parties losing elections because they leave the
:00:43. > :00:49.picture it isn't and nationalism to the right? Might yesterday may have
:00:50. > :00:57.some of the answers. The political philosopher Tim Soutphommasane has
:00:57. > :01:07.instructed people on how to embrace take it isn't. But what would that
:01:07. > :01:24.
:01:24. > :01:30.Tim Soutphommasane, welcome to HARDtalk. What do you mean a better
:01:30. > :01:34.club win Peter it isn't? Picture it isn't means a lot of country. But a
:01:34. > :01:41.lot of people think of something that is very aggressive and aimed
:01:41. > :01:45.at keeping other people had. Something that is about superiority.
:01:46. > :01:49.You do not need to look at quotations very far. You see
:01:49. > :01:53.quotations like Samuel Johnson about it being the last refuge of
:01:53. > :02:00.the scoundrel. Albert Einstein talked about picture it isn't being
:02:00. > :02:05.the measles of mankind. The kind of love of country that I advocate and
:02:05. > :02:09.an believe is worth celebrating is about improving your country. You
:02:09. > :02:16.want to contribute to tradition. Sometimes that means being critical
:02:16. > :02:23.of what your country does. When is it left version of picture it isn't,
:02:23. > :02:28.it is that critical temper and ability to criticise her citizens.
:02:28. > :02:35.I know that it is not the same as nationalism. But both words to
:02:35. > :02:40.people on the left of politics tend to make them squirm a bit. They
:02:40. > :02:48.think that nationalism causes wars. There is a long history of
:02:48. > :02:54.internationalism on the political left. The difference between
:02:54. > :02:58.patriotism and nationalism is one that is debated constantly. When I
:02:58. > :03:03.think that pay true to some, it is something that is about belonging
:03:03. > :03:11.to the nation state. At least for the time being. In the future, the
:03:11. > :03:16.nation-state may come to an end. But for the time being, we are
:03:16. > :03:20.governed by nation states. So you could not be a European
:03:20. > :03:27.nationalist? You can be a German nationalist or Scottish nationalist,
:03:28. > :03:36.but not European? Precisely. You may have a blonde to Europe, but in
:03:36. > :03:44.the common parlance, we are talking about national identities. There
:03:44. > :03:48.are those who say that that devotion to a flank, and then, ban,
:03:48. > :03:55.so fierce that it engenders mass- murderer, it is one of the great
:03:55. > :04:02.evils. He says that people on the left tend not to like it. There are
:04:02. > :04:05.no shortage of examples of national pride turning into these. But
:04:05. > :04:12.that's all the more reason that those on the moderate and left to
:04:12. > :04:17.take it very seriously. I speak about my experience in Australia.
:04:17. > :04:21.We have seen a rise of a certain form of nationalism during the past
:04:21. > :04:30.15 years that has excluded many who do not look or feel spirit
:04:30. > :04:39.typically Australian. The criminal law right happened into 1005.
:04:39. > :04:43.Cronulla riot. -- 2005. My argument is that if you do not speak the
:04:43. > :04:48.language of Page it isn't, it is more difficult to achieve a more
:04:48. > :04:58.moderate position. These things can become the preserve of those of the
:04:58. > :04:59.
:04:59. > :05:05.right. But how do you do at? These people tend to support
:05:05. > :05:10.nationalistic policies. That is not necessarily true. When you look at
:05:10. > :05:15.how Australians celebrate Australia Day, when you go to an event on
:05:15. > :05:20.26th January, you'll find people embracing the Australian flag. They
:05:20. > :05:29.are not explicitly Anglo Australians. By two felt
:05:29. > :05:35.uncomfortable with that. Yes. There are many angles to patriotism.
:05:35. > :05:43.There is a moderate side to it. A lot of people do not recognise that
:05:43. > :05:51.it need not mean an aggressive love of country. It can be a more
:05:51. > :05:55.generous, more inclusive. A German American politician in the 19th
:05:55. > :06:02.century was criticised by his colleagues and the American Senate
:06:02. > :06:06.for being a traitor to America because of his identity. He said,
:06:06. > :06:16.my country, right or wrong. He said my country, right a wrong, it right
:06:16. > :06:21.
:06:21. > :06:26.to be kept right, if wrong, to be set for it. Let us talk about you.
:06:26. > :06:36.You her from a family from Mells and China. You grew up in France.
:06:36. > :06:44.grew up in Austria. -- Australia. I grew up there. I was effectively an
:06:44. > :06:48.adopted son of Sidney. That is not to say that a always felt
:06:48. > :06:53.Australian. There were periods of my time growing up in Australia
:06:53. > :07:01.that I felt quite alienated by nationalism. The moment when he
:07:01. > :07:11.started thinking about all of this when I was a schoolboy. We took a
:07:11. > :07:13.
:07:13. > :07:18.treatise and pretty seriously. -- Patriot ism. I remember that it was
:07:18. > :07:25.Anzac Day. The equivalent of Remembrance Day or slur. There was
:07:26. > :07:34.a fellow students who said that we remember the places made by a
:07:34. > :07:44.afford this so that we could enjoy the Australian way of life and are
:07:44. > :07:45.
:07:45. > :07:48.democratic values. But my forebears would not have been on that site.
:07:48. > :07:56.They would have been people fighting because they wanted to
:07:56. > :08:03.keep my forebears at. I came to ask myself, what does it mean to be
:08:03. > :08:08.Australian. I came to believe it is about belonging to a national
:08:08. > :08:15.tradition. It is not about ancestry, Lynn Hinch were blurred. If you
:08:15. > :08:23.belong to a country, benefited from the national tradition. But it can
:08:23. > :08:31.be that ancestry and blood as well. You can be hyphenated an Australian,
:08:31. > :08:40.should you choose. But you choose to be an Australian Australian.
:08:40. > :08:43.quite. I am stealing, but I have Chinese heritage. -- Australian. I
:08:43. > :08:52.do not necessarily have an objection to a hyphenated and
:08:52. > :09:00.identity. It is often insufficient of people who say that they are
:09:00. > :09:05.Italian, Greek, were Chinese. Those are not assertions about their
:09:05. > :09:13.identity. It is given it a pity to run the way that they feel
:09:13. > :09:20.Australian. But you reject the idea of passports. In my own personal
:09:20. > :09:25.life, I have not decided to apply for a French citizenship. I do not
:09:25. > :09:33.have a connection to that country. I belong here. I grew up in
:09:33. > :09:38.Australia. In terms of my heritage, I duly Brits since of profit into
:09:38. > :09:45.my parents are from. There is no- one typical we have had you can be
:09:45. > :09:50.Australian, British or American. But you to share a certain common
:09:50. > :09:56.set of values. Let us talk about that kind of thought process being
:09:56. > :10:06.useful to politicians. You have been described as Ed Miliband's
:10:06. > :10:08.
:10:08. > :10:12.group. What is your relationship with the Labour Party? How far are
:10:12. > :10:19.your ideas feeding into the way that they think about immigration
:10:19. > :10:26.and integration? I had an interesting dialogue with the
:10:26. > :10:30.British Labour Party as they cut the process underway. There have
:10:30. > :10:40.been many people who have come to Britain to participate in the
:10:40. > :10:50.policy review. But the interest in my work has been this challenge of
:10:50. > :10:50.
:10:50. > :12:00.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 70 seconds
:12:00. > :12:05.We have to ask what the country means today. Who can belong. On
:12:05. > :12:11.that front, with those questions, Britain came forward. Do you agree
:12:11. > :12:18.with Ed Miliband's basic point that we got it wrong. Labour must change
:12:19. > :12:22.its approach to immigration. We too easily assume that those who worry
:12:22. > :12:32.about immigration are stuck in the past. Do you agree with that?
:12:32. > :12:32.
:12:32. > :12:38.is a lot of truth in it. There are in lot of people who dismiss
:12:38. > :12:43.concerns about social change, economic restructuring, as
:12:43. > :12:48.xenophobia or bigotry. It is always a lot more complex than at.
:12:48. > :12:52.Immigration works best when you have public acceptance of the
:12:52. > :12:56.programme. And when the terms of integration are explained very
:12:56. > :13:04.clearly to the population at large. These are arguably things that were
:13:04. > :13:08.not done well and off by Tony Blair and Gordon Brown. But it is not
:13:08. > :13:18.just explaining. It is the fact on the ground. It is wonderful to see
:13:18. > :13:19.
:13:19. > :13:23.Mo Farah winning Olympic gold. But at the same time, when you walk in
:13:23. > :13:30.a certain street orator to an area, you feel that you are not welcome
:13:30. > :13:33.here. It is not just about presenting. That is correct. The
:13:33. > :13:39.sentiment that does exist in those neighbourhoods, they are confronted
:13:39. > :13:44.with new rivals were undergoing dramatic change. It is this
:13:44. > :13:49.presents that they do not belong. People do not feel like they know
:13:49. > :13:56.this place that they were born in. What are they going to do about
:13:56. > :14:03.that? Most people do want to get along together, but they do feel a
:14:03. > :14:11.bit swamped sometimes. These things take time. Quite often they are
:14:11. > :14:17.about the turn of the debate. Sitting the right ethos. It is not
:14:18. > :14:22.about clicking his fingers were pulling a policy beeper. It is not
:14:22. > :14:29.going to be that easy. Integration and acceptance of difference can
:14:29. > :14:35.take time. I think of the experience in Australia and the
:14:35. > :14:44.concerns about Asian immigration. These days, there is an brace of
:14:44. > :14:50.Asian migration. -- embrace. I grew up in a place called Cabramatta. It
:14:50. > :14:55.was regarded as an ethnic ghetto. When you go to Sydney, you pick up
:14:55. > :15:02.a brochure, it advertises it as a tourist destination. That is
:15:02. > :15:12.suddenly in 20 years. Not every place will undergo this journey or
:15:12. > :15:19.
:15:19. > :15:23.transformation. That is the Part of that bargain is that they
:15:23. > :15:27.have to do their bit as well. In other words, David Cameron said a
:15:27. > :15:33.couple of years ago, if you come to Britain you have to accept freedom
:15:33. > :15:38.of speech, freedom of worship, democracy, the rule of law, equal
:15:38. > :15:42.rights. That may seem self-evident to you and to many of the people
:15:42. > :15:47.watching, but what do you do about the people who are already here who
:15:47. > :15:49.say they do much except that? In fact, they are prepared to blow up
:15:49. > :15:54.people in the Underground because they don't accept that. These are
:15:54. > :15:57.people who are born here. It is a very serious challenge. There is no
:15:57. > :16:02.doubt in my mind there has to be some sort of common ground for
:16:02. > :16:06.everyone to belong in a country. Civic values are very important. A
:16:06. > :16:12.commitment to democracy, free speech. If there are communities
:16:12. > :16:14.that are not embracing a creed like this or any thoughts, then
:16:14. > :16:19.governments and societies have to think harder about how you can
:16:19. > :16:23.persuade them to embrace the values of the community. I am a big fan of
:16:23. > :16:27.the civic education and I believe that those in schools need to be
:16:27. > :16:31.taught about these values and traditions. The tart necessarily
:16:31. > :16:34.translated organically, especially if you're talking about the
:16:34. > :16:39.children of immigrants from countries that don't have
:16:39. > :16:42.established traditions. -- these aren't. It partly deals with the
:16:42. > :16:46.people already here. What about the ones who might want to come here
:16:46. > :16:51.and still do not accept this? Should there be some basic tests?
:16:51. > :16:54.You don't speak English, you did it in. You don't agree with the basic
:16:54. > :16:58.tenets of Australia nor English wife, then you don't give in.
:16:58. > :17:01.has to be a line drawn somewhere. I'm a firm believer that if you are
:17:01. > :17:05.going to offer citizenship to those who arrive in your country, it is
:17:05. > :17:10.perfectly acceptable and appropriate for you to administer
:17:10. > :17:14.tests before people are granted citizenship. These tests may not
:17:14. > :17:21.need to test one's knowledge of the diminishing of the British history
:17:21. > :17:25.or test someone's knowledge of Donald Bradman's batting average in
:17:25. > :17:28.the case of Australia, but it is important that they know there is a
:17:28. > :17:32.dark and -- a democracy, they know there are elections and they know
:17:32. > :17:36.it is not acceptable to treat bait -- treat people differently on the
:17:36. > :17:41.basis of their religion or sex. Many people agree with what you say,
:17:41. > :17:45.but I am trying to think in practical terms for a politician of
:17:45. > :17:50.the left, the people you support, what can they do with that? How is
:17:50. > :17:55.it translated into practical politics? You have to be on the
:17:55. > :17:59.ground. You have to make sure there are communities, wherever there are
:17:59. > :18:07.new settlements, with leaders that there is a social contract and a
:18:07. > :18:10.bargain. That involves hard work. That involves time on the ground.
:18:10. > :18:15.It all comes back to having a national conversation that isn't
:18:15. > :18:19.afraid of talking about civic values. Those on the left quite
:18:19. > :18:22.often believe that talking about civic values is just come at --
:18:22. > :18:26.some kind of code for something uglier. If you talk about British
:18:26. > :18:29.values or Australian values or liberal democracies, then that is a
:18:29. > :18:38.way for you to communicate to others that you really are talking
:18:38. > :18:45.about something else. That is sheepish nurse and it isn't
:18:45. > :18:48.justified at all. David Cameron, for example, says we have even
:18:48. > :18:53.tolerated the segregated communities behaving in ways that
:18:53. > :18:56.run completely counter to our values. He accepts the problem. You
:18:56. > :19:00.are suggesting that Labour accept the problem. I still don't quite
:19:00. > :19:05.see how they are actually going to grapple with it, if you have these
:19:05. > :19:08.problem areas. Part of the problem might be when you look at the
:19:08. > :19:14.practical s?I ? practical sare very low key and they are not ever
:19:14. > :19:18.going to win headlines in newspapers all be the subject of
:19:18. > :19:21.exposes on current affairs programmes. They are quite banal,
:19:22. > :19:30.mundane things. They aren't about making sure people can settle well
:19:30. > :19:34.when they arrived as immigrants, good English classes. All the
:19:34. > :19:37.nitty-gritty things that aren't very attractive, but a very
:19:37. > :19:40.important as to how a new communities can be welcomed and
:19:40. > :19:45.make the journey to integration. Let me compare the experience of
:19:45. > :19:48.Australia with some other countries. I think Australia's
:19:48. > :19:54.multiculturalism has -- has succeeded because it has been
:19:54. > :19:57.muscular. Those who arrive are given English classes, are directed
:19:57. > :20:01.to migrant resource centres where they can understand how to And roll
:20:01. > :20:06.their children in schools or understand what to do to get a
:20:06. > :20:10.Medicare card. But is not necessarily happening here.
:20:10. > :20:16.should be. These are the practical steps that need to happen. They are
:20:16. > :20:19.not spectacular, but they are very important. If you take us on to
:20:19. > :20:27.talking about Australian politics. What on earth is going on in your
:20:27. > :20:32.country? Does the Labor party have a death wish? Getting rid of Julia
:20:32. > :20:36.Gillard, bringing Kevin Rudd back. This is not business as usual in
:20:36. > :20:42.Australia. These are very extraordinary circumstances. Even
:20:42. > :20:48.for a country that is known for its brutal partisan politics. What we
:20:48. > :20:52.have had since 2010 is something we haven't really seen before, which
:20:52. > :20:59.is sitting Prime Minister has been replaced by their own parties
:20:59. > :21:03.because they are not doing well in opinion polls. I think the Labor
:21:03. > :21:08.party in Australia is going to experience some very long-term
:21:08. > :21:12.difficulties as a result of this because it is easy to conclude,
:21:12. > :21:17.watching things on Forder the moment, that the party stands for
:21:17. > :21:22.nothing except a winning elections. You could say that for politicians
:21:22. > :21:26.Outterside Australia as well. Isn't part of it straight for the sexism?
:21:26. > :21:32.Julia Gillard replaced by a guy after some pretty nasty sexist
:21:32. > :21:35.comments. I want to go back to how people fit into society. The slight
:21:35. > :21:40.majority in Australia, as in this country, are women. Perhaps they
:21:40. > :21:45.are treated very different week in both countries. Sexism has been a
:21:46. > :21:50.part of Julia Gillard's problems as prime minister. I wouldn't reduce
:21:50. > :21:56.it just to sexism alone, though. I think the manner in which she came
:21:56. > :22:00.to become Prime Minister was very problematic for her. She that
:22:00. > :22:04.didn't enjoy the kind of legitimacy that most other prime ministers
:22:04. > :22:09.enjoy. Don't forget you're talking about a minority government during
:22:09. > :22:13.the Gillard prime ministership. A very volatile environment where you
:22:13. > :22:20.had an opposition leader, Tony Abbott, who was able to conduct a
:22:20. > :22:23.very negative politics. That combination of things made it very
:22:23. > :22:30.difficult for her, even though she had a lot of legislative
:22:30. > :22:34.achievements to her name. I wonder whether... Uluru in the ideas
:22:34. > :22:38.business, which is what attracts you to talk to political leaders. -
:22:38. > :22:43.- you are in. You think most people looking at politics think it is
:22:43. > :22:48.about ideas and ideals? They think it is quite a nasty game by
:22:48. > :22:52.political elites in which nature -- pay chitosan is one of the ways to
:22:52. > :22:56.keep clubs in their place. Politics is not ever going to be an easy
:22:56. > :22:59.ride. I can only speak of the Australian electorate with great
:22:59. > :23:04.intimacy. The Australian voter knows quite well it is an ugly
:23:04. > :23:11.business. They also expect their politicians to give uplifting
:23:11. > :23:14.speeches while also wielding bloody knives. There is, I think, an
:23:14. > :23:20.appetite in Australia for serious policy debate. We just haven't had
:23:20. > :23:25.it for a number of years now for all sorts of reasons. One can only
:23:25. > :23:32.hope that this will be a transitory phenomenon, rather than a long-term
:23:32. > :23:36.decline in representative democracy. Throughout this conversation today,
:23:36. > :23:40.I detect a long Bain of optimism from ute, but I am wondering
:23:40. > :23:45.whether the optimism about communities getting on with each
:23:45. > :23:50.other, but patriotism, is really appropriate to very hard times when
:23:50. > :23:55.because of the economic situation all of the world we tend to see
:23:55. > :23:58.various rivalries between communities and countries? That is
:23:58. > :24:01.precisely the time you have to be optimistic and have to be
:24:01. > :24:05.idealistic. It is very easy in these times to think that things
:24:05. > :24:11.will fall apart and it will be a freefall and we would ascend to a
:24:11. > :24:14.state of nature with a war against all. In those kinds of settings,