:00:11. > :00:15.HARDtalk. International forces are pulling out
:00:15. > :00:19.of Afghanistan. By the end of next year, they will be gone completely.
:00:19. > :00:25.I am in Kabul at the headquarters of the new Afghan National Army, which
:00:25. > :00:28.is taking on the job of keeping the peace here. My guest is the head of
:00:28. > :00:38.that army, General Sher Mohammad Karimi. Does he think his troops are
:00:38. > :00:50.
:00:50. > :00:56.General Sher Mohammad Karimi, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you.
:00:56. > :01:00.Thank you for the invitation. your troops keep Afghanistan safe?
:01:00. > :01:05.I'm positive that they can. They have proved knit the last two
:01:05. > :01:14.months. Some of the operations will be conducted independently. That is
:01:15. > :01:19.a good evidence it will work. some comments, in March from General
:01:19. > :01:27.Dunsfor, who said, they are not ready yet. We are ready. What do we
:01:27. > :01:32.have? The infrantry forces of the A and A have been really used in
:01:32. > :01:39.battle, as a test independently and they proved it. Yes, we are still
:01:39. > :01:45.waiting for a lot of equipment. Maybe what he meant that we are not
:01:45. > :01:50.ready, he meant which some of the enablers. You see you are aware of
:01:50. > :01:55.the mobile strike forces that we have. Three battalions already in
:01:55. > :01:59.the field and the fourth one is coming. The forces we are using
:01:59. > :02:03.against enemy forces are very, very effective, policing the Army and
:02:03. > :02:06.they have proved that. We do have a situation where only last week we
:02:06. > :02:11.had the Taliban attacking the building next door to here, right in
:02:11. > :02:18.what is meant to be the heart of the safest place in Afghanistan.
:02:18. > :02:25.see, if you go into the details of that incident, you will be convinced
:02:25. > :02:31.yourself that that was such a sophisticated attack, with all the
:02:31. > :02:35.documents they had prepared to deceive all the people guarding.
:02:35. > :02:40.They will not let me in without checking my documents if they come
:02:40. > :02:44.to that gate. It was a good lesson for all of us. They were defeated.
:02:44. > :02:48.You were talking about your fight with the Taliban, yet, at the same
:02:48. > :02:53.time, there are plans talks with the Taliban. Unfortunately the Taliban
:02:53. > :02:56.are not alone. There are many individuals, organisations, even
:02:56. > :03:01.countries supporting the Taliban. We will get on to that in a moment.
:03:01. > :03:05.You have said in the past this is a fight about ideas, a fight about a
:03:05. > :03:11.way of life. I wonder if that is your belief about the Taliban,
:03:11. > :03:16.whether there are any talks that can find some agreement. You see, what I
:03:16. > :03:20.hear now, after the issues - there is a lot of changes in the voices of
:03:20. > :03:25.the Taliban. They are talking about democracy,
:03:25. > :03:32.they are talking about organised Governments. They are talking about
:03:32. > :03:35.schools. So, maybe they are either changed positively, or maybe they
:03:35. > :03:40.are still under some kind of pressure from the international
:03:40. > :03:45.community. Ideally the Taliban are people who
:03:45. > :03:50.do not believe in democracy, who do not believe in women's rights and so
:03:50. > :03:53.on. But after too many years of fighting, they may have developed as
:03:53. > :03:57.well, you know, which is a good well, you know, which is a good
:03:57. > :04:00.sign. The answer is to bring them into Government? Yes, I have no
:04:00. > :04:05.objection to that, provided they are not against the constitution,
:04:05. > :04:09.provided they are not against democracy and they are not against
:04:09. > :04:13.women's rights in particular. Human rights as a whole, but particularly
:04:13. > :04:20.women's rights. If you think about how you would bring them into
:04:20. > :04:23.Government that means ministry, giving them governorships, and
:04:23. > :04:27.suddenly you have the Taliban controlling parts of the country.
:04:27. > :04:35.they come in, even if they were running for presidency and they get
:04:35. > :04:39.all the votes required, I am fully obedient to that leadership F the
:04:39. > :04:45.people really choose them. This is the main question. The people, if
:04:45. > :04:50.the people of Afghanistan vote to any of the Taliban to run this
:04:50. > :04:55.country, through democracy, why not? What support do you think there is
:04:55. > :05:01.in the country for the Taliban? What percentage would you put it a at?
:05:02. > :05:07.would not put it at a very high percentage. Give us an idea.It
:05:07. > :05:12.would be difficult. You have to go district by district and see the
:05:12. > :05:17.present situation. Even now in the areas where the Taliban are
:05:17. > :05:24.dominate, people stand against them. And the people are really standing
:05:24. > :05:29.up to them because they are tired of their atrocities, tired of the
:05:29. > :05:34.tyrannies, people are people. They cannot afford - they cannot and the
:05:34. > :05:38.public don't have much support. President Karzai calls them "our
:05:38. > :05:42.brothers." You often heard disenchanted brothers. It is
:05:42. > :05:48.interesting, because at one stage you were imprisoned for a year
:05:48. > :05:54.during the Soviet occasion. -- occupation. And then the Taliban
:05:54. > :05:58.came along, were you relieved when they came? ? I was relieved before
:05:58. > :06:07.they came in. During that regime that I was put in jail, they
:06:07. > :06:14.released me after a year-and-a-half and they were still in power.
:06:14. > :06:19.hand hurst trained officer, you with were advising... That was a later
:06:19. > :06:24.stage and this very building where the Taliban took over, they gathered
:06:24. > :06:30.us, the people who were here because I didn't follow any faction. I did
:06:30. > :06:35.not follow any factions. I stayed here and they, the Taliban gathered
:06:35. > :06:39.the officers and said, you are no longer required, if we want any of
:06:39. > :06:44.you, we will call you. After some time they called me to guide them,
:06:44. > :06:50.help them on some of the Government issues, particularly and... And how
:06:50. > :06:56.did you find it? I hadment no option. I had no option because I
:06:56. > :07:01.lived here with miff family. I was forced to wear a turban, forced to
:07:01. > :07:07.grow a beard. That was compulsory. Not just for me, for everyone. It
:07:07. > :07:11.was not a situation of choice and because I had to stay here with my
:07:12. > :07:17.family, for the sake of my family, I could not resist or object to any of
:07:17. > :07:24.their wishes to help them. But the thing is, after a while, probably
:07:24. > :07:29.they found out that I was fm educated. They took after me. I was
:07:29. > :07:33.lucky enough to get away. And here we are in a situation where there
:07:34. > :07:39.are prospects of talk wss the Taliban again. I wonder -- prospects
:07:39. > :07:43.of talks with the Taliban again. I wonder wonder if it is not a
:07:43. > :07:46.betrayal of women. We want to have negotiations with the Taliban. We
:07:46. > :07:50.want to share everything with the Taliban, but the question is, the
:07:51. > :07:56.main question is not just for us for the whole international community,
:07:56. > :08:01.that there should -- they should agree to agree, to accept the
:08:01. > :08:04.constitution, because there is nothing in the constitution against
:08:04. > :08:09.religious, against Islam. Perhaps part of the reason they are getting
:08:09. > :08:14.support is there are doubts about the Afghan National Army N the words
:08:14. > :08:18.of ening General Dunsford, hedging behaviour. People don't want to side
:08:18. > :08:24.with you for fear of when international forces go, you will
:08:24. > :08:28.not be up to the job. You see, it is up to the leadership to convince the
:08:28. > :08:33.soldiers, who are to believe, and that is what I am doing. And the
:08:33. > :08:36.competition is doing? My soldiers know that why they are fighting for.
:08:36. > :08:41.And this is requested from the politicians as well. I have been
:08:41. > :08:47.asking from the President all the way down to even the Parliament to
:08:47. > :08:51.support it. And how do you... support have you got? How to get
:08:51. > :08:55.support, so to see their training, operation, to see their way of life.
:08:55. > :09:02.To see their ordeals. You will know the minister for energy and water,
:09:02. > :09:05.who was one of the most powerful muj what dean commanders in the country
:09:05. > :09:09.is quoted in a number of places saying there are parts of the
:09:09. > :09:14.country where Government forces can not operate and there locals should
:09:14. > :09:19.step forward, take arms and defend the country. Is he right? You see,
:09:19. > :09:26.yes and no. Is it is right his people... If there is a danger of
:09:26. > :09:30.attack from outside. Say, if there was an invasion then the Army may
:09:31. > :09:35.not be sufficient, then you call on the people. It is the honest duty of
:09:35. > :09:40.every individual to defend their country. In that sense... If it is a
:09:41. > :09:44.call to arms and be ready. In that sense I agree with him. If we are
:09:44. > :09:51.only deelting the enemy, that we are -- dealing the enemy that we are
:09:51. > :09:57.dealing with now, we have the Army and the police. It has to be better
:09:57. > :10:01.organised, which is organised. We have to improve on that T the rule
:10:01. > :10:04.of the Army, the rule of the police and use them in a better way.
:10:04. > :10:08.Therefore there is no need for people... Is he right in saying
:10:08. > :10:12.there are parts of the country where the Government cannot operate?
:10:12. > :10:18.Presently, I do not agree there are four districts that are not in the
:10:18. > :10:25.hand of the Government. And you are witness to them that we liberated
:10:25. > :10:30.about three or four weeks ago and those four districts will be also
:10:30. > :10:37.Lieberman rated in time. We have -- liberated in time. We have all
:10:37. > :10:42.plans. I must admit that the enemy's activities have increased. They have
:10:42. > :10:51.been told to come and fight in Afghanistan and are ar, very
:10:51. > :10:57.extended and vast and the majority are massing the Taliban in different
:10:57. > :11:02.places and that is a, a reason for that is political. The political
:11:02. > :11:05.reason is, since we have had the Doha and Qatar peace talks, they
:11:05. > :11:10.would like to have a better position. To have a better position,
:11:10. > :11:15.they have to increase air attacks... And it will get worse? Probably in
:11:15. > :11:20.the next two months. OK. Let's talk about the capabilities of the army.
:11:20. > :11:24.You have said they have been very successful. We had problems with
:11:24. > :11:29.desession, but the police and the Army are getting -- desertions, but
:11:29. > :11:35.the police and the Army are getting strong. . I don't have dissergs.
:11:35. > :11:42.There is a different between AWOL and dissergs. I have never had any
:11:42. > :11:46.deserted from the battlefield. You are very relaxed about when they
:11:46. > :11:51.return to work. When they go on leave, when they go home, because of
:11:51. > :11:55.some of the transportation problems they may be late. Stiemss they make
:11:55. > :12:00.a decision under fam -- sometimes they make a decision under family
:12:00. > :12:05.pressure. That is for me... That is not a problem. What do you think is
:12:05. > :12:12.the big problem? The big problem, right now for me is some of the
:12:12. > :12:18.enablers. The biggest challenge that I have today, but it may not be
:12:18. > :12:27.there by 2014 because the plan I have been told, that is going on
:12:27. > :12:32.means a lot of transportation and helicopters... Air support.The big
:12:32. > :12:42.problem for me right now, the biggest challenge for me is the lack
:12:42. > :12:57.
:12:57. > :13:02.of air transportation and air The US is planning to give 40th
:13:02. > :13:12.Newt aircraft, but you do not have pilots trained to fly them. You as
:13:12. > :13:17.
:13:17. > :13:22.I do. -- yes I do. From the time the programme has started, I am not
:13:22. > :13:32.criticising, but it should have started many years ago. It started
:13:32. > :13:39.
:13:40. > :13:49.late, so the result will be late. To run the Air Force, the
:13:50. > :13:50.
:13:50. > :13:55.helicopters, up I have got good pilots to run them.
:13:55. > :14:05.international forces are packing up, everything is being removed, do you
:14:05. > :14:07.
:14:07. > :14:13.think they should leave everything? I have asked for some of the
:14:13. > :14:23.equipment. I have said to the Russian community they should leave
:14:23. > :14:26.
:14:26. > :14:33.some of their equipment because it will be better for them. Some of
:14:33. > :14:38.the areas, some of the issues, they are thinking that the equipment is
:14:38. > :14:46.sophisticated and it might be difficult for us to use it.
:14:46. > :14:56.they are worried they will fall into the wrong hands. Unfortunately,
:14:56. > :15:00.that is under estimates -- under estimating the Afghan soldiers. I
:15:00. > :15:10.do not agree with them, but I cannot force them to think
:15:10. > :15:17.
:15:17. > :15:25.otherwise. There is talk to bring back heavy weapons around the
:15:25. > :15:35.border. The threat could be anywhere if you do not have enough
:15:35. > :15:37.
:15:37. > :15:40.equipment or enough support. The enemy has heavy weapons as well.
:15:40. > :15:50.Up until a couple of years ago there were no thoughts that the
:15:50. > :15:53.enemy could shoot aircraft. In that case, when the enemy is getting
:15:53. > :16:00.such equipment from somewhere, I have to have the same kind of
:16:00. > :16:07.equipment, better equipment, to defend it and think about that. I
:16:07. > :16:13.will do anything. I will ask anybody, any country, to help. I
:16:13. > :16:20.will ask NATO to give help. I will try to ask my government to provide
:16:20. > :16:28.me with some of the equipment. For the army, to solve the problem of
:16:28. > :16:31.the army, I would do anything I can. To fight the enemy, and I wonder
:16:31. > :16:41.who you think that enemy is? When you think about the Taliban, you
:16:41. > :16:48.also think about it being Pakistan? I am trying my best to have good
:16:48. > :16:51.relations with Pakistan. Is it hard? The question is, whatever
:16:51. > :17:01.policy they have, they don't honestly trust what I am saying to
:17:01. > :17:05.
:17:05. > :17:10.them. They still think I may be a threat to them. I am not a threat
:17:10. > :17:19.to anybody. I'm not a threat to Pakistan or anybody else. Are they
:17:19. > :17:25.a threat to you? Presently, yes. You see it. The Taliban has been
:17:25. > :17:31.unleashed to Afghanistan. Is this deliberate policy on the part of
:17:31. > :17:40.Pakistan? If it is not deliberate, why are they doing it? Is there a
:17:40. > :17:45.question like that if somebody is doing wrong against you. Do you
:17:45. > :17:48.think it is a mistake? Can I ask you about the... We have the
:17:48. > :17:52.Americans funding the Pakistan government and funding Afghanistan.
:17:52. > :18:01.We have this tension along the border. I wonder what you see is
:18:01. > :18:10.the way out. I see the way out as the US acting equally on both sides.
:18:10. > :18:17.Americans are helping Afghanistan in all different ways. I'm talking
:18:17. > :18:20.about military. If you think about the best help that could be given
:18:20. > :18:26.to you, would your fight with the Taliban effectively be over if
:18:26. > :18:29.Pakistan decided to make it so? it would be done in weeks. You see,
:18:29. > :18:39.right now if Pakistan sincerely tries to help the peace process,
:18:39. > :18:41.
:18:41. > :18:49.because the Taliban is under their control. The leadership is in
:18:49. > :18:53.Pakistan. If they put pressure on the leadership or convince them
:18:53. > :18:59.what they should do, it would help a lot. The role of Pakistan we
:18:59. > :19:04.cannot deny. Nobody can deny that. It is very important. Pakistan had
:19:04. > :19:14.influence in the affairs of Afghanistan since 1978. Up until
:19:14. > :19:22.today, they are involved in the political life of Afghanistan.
:19:22. > :19:26.talks should be with Pakistan? I have tried. Every meeting has
:19:26. > :19:29.been on co-operation along the border against the common enemy.
:19:29. > :19:36.The enemy or the terrorists that are hurting me or are today
:19:36. > :19:44.suffering through their own creation. Pakistan is suffering
:19:44. > :19:47.internally from terrorists as much as I do. We can work together to
:19:47. > :19:56.fight this menace, provided they are all sincere in what they are
:19:56. > :20:02.doing. There is pressure on the US to stop drone attacks into Pakistan
:20:02. > :20:06.and of course the strikes elsewhere. Would you like them to stop? The US
:20:06. > :20:15.has not started drone attacks on their own. Pakistan has to ask. No
:20:15. > :20:18.country would ever attack another country without some relation.
:20:18. > :20:23.Whatever they say in public, privately Pakistan is giving it the
:20:23. > :20:28.nod? Of course they have. They have given permission to the US to
:20:28. > :20:35.attack the targets of their choice. Pakistan is choosing the target?
:20:35. > :20:42.They have given a list already. The people have been killed. Why didn't
:20:42. > :20:48.they attack others? What is the answer to that question? I am
:20:48. > :20:55.asking you. Drones are used against Taliban who are from Pakistan. They
:20:55. > :20:59.are never used against Afghan Taliban members. That is one of the
:20:59. > :21:05.issues when I am saying that the peace to Afghanistan can come if
:21:05. > :21:13.the US and Pakistan both desire to have peace. Peace is in the hands
:21:13. > :21:17.of the US and Pakistan in Afghanistan. And Afghanistan. Of
:21:17. > :21:20.course. Afghanistan is the subject. Let's turn to Robert Bales. This
:21:20. > :21:29.was the American soldier who has been convicted of killing 16
:21:29. > :21:31.civilians, attempted murder of more. You investigated it. We learnt
:21:31. > :21:40.recently that yes he has been convicted but the prosecutors will
:21:40. > :21:42.not be seeking the death penalty. I wonder how you feel about that.
:21:42. > :21:49.you talk to those families that lost their children, their wives,
:21:49. > :21:54.their sisters, their fathers, they should tell you what should be done.
:21:54. > :21:58.He admits that he doesn't even know why he did it. I saw the children
:21:58. > :22:03.in the area. The women who were killed, very brutally. I don't
:22:03. > :22:08.think these people will pardon him. I don't think the people will say
:22:08. > :22:12.that a life sentence is enough for him. They want the death penalty?
:22:12. > :22:15.They want the death penalty. years ago international forces came
:22:15. > :22:21.to this country, not only to make Afghanistan safer but to make the
:22:21. > :22:24.rest of the world safer. There has been so many tragic stories in the
:22:25. > :22:31.time, but do you think they have succeeded in that objective? Yes,
:22:31. > :22:38.in certain ways. By coming to Afghanistan, they defeated the
:22:38. > :22:43.Taliban, but they did not pursue the Taliban in time. They thought
:22:43. > :22:50.the Taliban was finished. They thought Al-Qaeda was finished in
:22:50. > :22:55.Afghanistan. Should they have talked to them ten years ago?
:22:55. > :22:59.personally talked to many Americans. I said they should not
:22:59. > :23:04.underestimate the Taliban. They were tactically defeated, but they
:23:04. > :23:11.will reorganise and they would start fighting again. Nobody seemed
:23:11. > :23:16.to believe me. Are other countries no safer as a result of what has
:23:16. > :23:20.been done here? Had this not happened, they may have been a lot
:23:20. > :23:24.of bomb attacks, terrorist activities in many countries. It
:23:24. > :23:31.was necessary and has made the world a safer place? It made a
:23:31. > :23:35.safer place for Afghanistan. The whole world was going in one
:23:35. > :23:38.direction and Afghanistan was going in another direction. Is that
:23:38. > :23:47.direction, the direction of democracy and stability, is it
:23:47. > :23:50.secure now? From my point of view, yes. It is very, very fragile.
:23:50. > :23:54.Because of the enemy situation, because of what is going to happen
:23:54. > :23:57.politically after this. If we are clever enough to handle the