:00:13. > :00:17.candidates. Now on BBC News it's time for Hardtalk. International
:00:17. > :00:24.forces are pulling out of Afghanistan and much of the support
:00:24. > :00:30.will dry up with its huge natural resource is worth $1 trillion. It's
:00:30. > :00:37.one of the most corrupt countries in the world. I guessed is in carpel,
:00:38. > :00:41.the Finance Minister. He has publicly accused the MPs of
:00:41. > :00:51.corruption and had to defend himself against the charges. There's money
:00:51. > :01:03.
:01:03. > :01:09.to be made but will be Afghanistan people see this? Welcome to the
:01:09. > :01:14.show. How much do you think Afghanistan will suffer, the economy
:01:15. > :01:21.will suffer, when the international forces leave? There is commit by the
:01:21. > :01:27.international community for the long-term support from the
:01:28. > :01:34.international community providing development assistance and forces
:01:34. > :01:38.and the impact should not be that great, but the impact and the
:01:38. > :01:48.concerns and fears that are generated by the negative publicity
:01:48. > :01:54.
:01:54. > :01:59.with respect to that. The security forces. Just sentiment you are
:01:59. > :02:04.saying but what are the effects? We are hearing the sounds of building
:02:05. > :02:09.and thunder but there's been some affect people changing business
:02:09. > :02:15.plans. Is already evidence the economy and the property market and
:02:15. > :02:19.supermarkets and people losing their jobs with the power to buy. It has,
:02:19. > :02:25.it's the fear and the concerns. That's why we need to go against the
:02:25. > :02:33.negative publicity. It has really affected the mindset of the people
:02:33. > :02:40.here and the traders and investors. It's unjustified? It's not fault of
:02:40. > :02:45.the assessments to us. It's fear. Fear that we need to go against
:02:45. > :02:50.that. Louise Hancock says people are fed up with Afghanistan feeling they
:02:50. > :02:55.have not got value for what they have put in. As a result of
:02:55. > :03:03.corruption, a result of what has happened here, there's a feeling
:03:03. > :03:11.that an awful lot of aid is going in and people will perhaps give up?
:03:11. > :03:19.Afghanistan has come a long way. Look at the indicators, healthcare,
:03:19. > :03:29.look at education. From a few will hundreds out and men to now millions
:03:29. > :03:31.
:03:31. > :03:35.of students in the school 's. The GDP is up to about $700. That's all
:03:35. > :03:43.dependent upon aid about 90% of the national budget. It's the
:03:43. > :03:49.effectiveness of it. To keep that aid you need to prove you are doing
:03:49. > :03:53.something about corruption. Absolutely. You shocked and
:03:53. > :03:58.delighted people when you named six MPs in Parliament who you said were
:03:58. > :04:06.corrupt. They all deny it but give us an example of the things you
:04:06. > :04:12.spoke about? Smuggling, for example. You talk of MPs calling you
:04:12. > :04:16.up allowing illegal vehicles into the country? They have said that
:04:16. > :04:21.actually you are just accusing them because they tried to impeach you. I
:04:22. > :04:24.have submitted my evidence to the Attorney General and he says they
:04:24. > :04:30.should resent themselves for investigation and now they are
:04:30. > :04:34.resisting and they need to clear their names. I was accused. I went
:04:34. > :04:38.to the Attorney General and asked him to investigate me and I was
:04:38. > :04:47.cleared. You have not produced evidence and you will make it
:04:47. > :04:55.public? I don't have too. The investigation and the power of
:04:55. > :05:03.investigation. You will provide evidence? I have. They are
:05:03. > :05:08.investigating. Why only those six, because everyone says it's far more
:05:08. > :05:15.wides read. You picked those six who went after you. I had evidence
:05:15. > :05:25.against the six and I cannot give you a figure but anyone else with
:05:25. > :05:30.
:05:30. > :05:35.evidence should come forward. They talk about regions. Some of them had
:05:35. > :05:38.served in important positions and I have the evidence. You sat in the
:05:39. > :05:44.Finance Ministry and there was Customs under that and one imagines
:05:44. > :05:48.an awful lot of those deals and illegal corruption was going on. You
:05:48. > :05:51.could, surely, have got to the bottom of it going public, not just
:05:51. > :05:58.about MPs but against some of the very powerful people in the country,
:05:58. > :06:04.former warlords who sit in senior positions? I have taken action. In
:06:04. > :06:11.Customs, the biggest number of people who have been fired and
:06:11. > :06:21.replaced, they were primarily from customs. Three months ago I replaced
:06:21. > :06:21.
:06:21. > :06:27.every direct in the customs. Will you say that any time you come
:06:27. > :06:35.across anything that is corrupt? Absolutely. We will explain as a big
:06:35. > :06:39.thunderstorm going on here. It's usually far hotter here. We are
:06:39. > :06:45.talking about the trouble within the political class. A US official
:06:45. > :06:53.quoted in the New York Times said Afghanistan is the United States. Is
:06:53. > :06:56.he right? The big contracts, certainly, they are open to
:06:56. > :07:01.corruption. Contracts we have nothing to do with. People who make
:07:01. > :07:08.hundreds of millions of dollars here and don't pay tax. There are
:07:08. > :07:18.contractors who have violated us and have been involved with smuggling.
:07:18. > :07:19.
:07:19. > :07:27.Here, lots of money comes through. 20% is taken up coming through the
:07:27. > :07:32.budget from the Government and 80% is spent. That's the problem. That's
:07:32. > :07:39.also because people don't trust it going through the Government and
:07:39. > :07:49.non-government sources may have their problems. Absolutely. When
:07:49. > :07:50.
:07:50. > :07:55.there is money in the system countries like E and a stone --
:07:55. > :08:01.Afghanistan, you cannot say you don't trust the budget. Actually, to
:08:01. > :08:08.use a phrase, the fish rots from the head. The leadership in Afghanistan
:08:08. > :08:14.needs to tackle this and it is not. We have, we have. Not compared to
:08:14. > :08:21.where we stand. Some of the key indicators. The open budget index,
:08:21. > :08:28.where the fourth most transparent with a score of 56 to 59. Four years
:08:28. > :08:33.ago it was down to it eight. The president is doing all he can? We
:08:33. > :08:42.can certainly do more but on the whole. Could the president do more?
:08:42. > :08:47.He certainly could do more but he's look at one of the sources and
:08:47. > :08:54.contributing to the corruption here of opium. This country could not
:08:54. > :09:04.survive without it could it? It can, it can, and we need to get to the
:09:04. > :09:05.
:09:05. > :09:12.bottom of this question. In the name of fighting drugs, we have seen not
:09:12. > :09:22.much of that but who is spending it in what ways? The livelihoods that
:09:22. > :09:24.
:09:24. > :09:30.was promoted stop. These are mostly led by UN organisations. I've seen
:09:30. > :09:36.the situation in Helmand province which constitutes nifty % of the OPM
:09:36. > :09:41.from Afghanistan. They have managed to reduce it a bit that they still
:09:41. > :09:48.talk about three quarters of the level from peak in 2006. Ten years
:09:48. > :09:56.ago, 26 provinces were producing opium but today it's only a handful
:09:56. > :09:59.of provinces producing. When you are out they provide alternatives the
:09:59. > :10:09.suggestion is that they cannot do anything until the central
:10:09. > :10:19.government goes after those at the top, those making the money. That
:10:19. > :10:19.
:10:19. > :10:28.people at the top are not here stop its the international media. It's in
:10:28. > :10:34.Central Asia, Russia, Europe. It's the Mafia in Europe. You are saying
:10:34. > :10:39.the opium from the UK where a lot of it goes, if the UK sorted out the
:10:39. > :10:45.drug problem Afghanistan would have no problem? If you can't deal with
:10:45. > :10:55.there, we will have established institutions, sophisticated
:10:55. > :10:55.
:10:55. > :10:59.systems. Here, this country has institutions and security in most
:10:59. > :11:07.places where opium is produced. There are individuals here making
:11:07. > :11:12.millions. There are also in Europe. The government should go after them
:11:12. > :11:15.and that's not happening. I think you need to do your research to go
:11:16. > :11:23.out there to see how many people are behind bars because of it. Yesterday
:11:23. > :11:26.and today in Customs we arrested two people smuggling heroin and they are
:11:26. > :11:31.in prison today. If the international community over the
:11:32. > :11:37.past 12 years was unable to deal with opium, what hope is there that
:11:37. > :11:43.the national government would be able to cope with it after 2014? It
:11:43. > :11:49.will expand, isn't it Western up with opium, if there is no
:11:49. > :11:56.international response it would be simultaneous and the demand and
:11:56. > :12:02.supply and that is not much hope. You make it sound like the opium
:12:02. > :12:10.problem in Afghanistan is down to the outsiders. Stop we do supply but
:12:10. > :12:15.I told you we do have security in place. For example, we are affected
:12:15. > :12:22.in some places. Places with no security are at risk. Will
:12:22. > :12:28.Afghanistan lose any aid if it does not tackle this problem? It should
:12:28. > :12:32.not, it is an international problem. Let's turn to what could be
:12:32. > :12:38.the salvation for Afghanistan, everyone points to this, the huge
:12:38. > :12:43.natural resources here. Mining, oil, the geological survey did an
:12:44. > :12:50.assessment saying it's probably worth $3 trillion. Possibly more.
:12:50. > :12:56.How much do you think? I think it's much better than that. Bigger than
:12:56. > :13:02.$3 trillion. There's been a few deals struck with Chinese companies
:13:02. > :13:11.and others. There's been an accusation that there's been very
:13:11. > :13:17.little transparency. It's a game, the whole neighbourhood with
:13:17. > :13:24.transparency we have a very transparent system in place. We are
:13:24. > :13:26.close to being a member of one of those organisations. How can
:13:26. > :13:36.Afghanistan benefit? Some countries have been cursed by the unnatural
:13:36. > :13:48.
:13:48. > :13:53.resources. Transparency, transparency, transparency. What
:13:53. > :13:59.needed to be done is done. We are more transparent today than we were
:13:59. > :14:05.last year. Certainly more than a couple of years ago. We are created
:14:05. > :14:15.to be more transparent in every contract, every contract has been
:14:15. > :14:21.public on websites. Even a member of. Is Afghanistan getting a good
:14:21. > :14:26.deal out of deals it has struck already? Absolutely. We have
:14:26. > :14:32.international adviser is, we have oversight, we had used reviews and
:14:32. > :14:36.it is the best we can do. What should Afghanistan get out of it? In
:14:36. > :14:40.some places there is no infrastructure, there is no
:14:40. > :14:45.security. Is the price effectively the reward for Afghanistan that
:14:45. > :14:51.roads are built. But actually, a lot has to go out of the country but
:14:51. > :15:00.what you get in return is infrastructure, rail lines, roads.
:15:00. > :15:06.Again, in central Afghanistan, for example, a Canadian company won the
:15:06. > :15:15.bid and it is a really landlocked area. They have a royalty rate of
:15:15. > :15:20.8%, I believe. It works really well with international royalty rates.
:15:20. > :15:24.How much better can be get on that? We have a commitment from these
:15:24. > :15:30.companies to build the infrastructure and connect
:15:30. > :15:36.Afghanistan to the region. It is the icing on the top. When will
:15:36. > :15:45.Afghanistan realise the benefit of that? We don't have infrastructure
:15:45. > :15:53.in place, with silver security concerns. It will start slowly. --
:15:53. > :16:00.we still have security concerns. We believe that by 2016 or 2017 we will
:16:00. > :16:07.start having better revenue. It will pick up and eventually this will be
:16:07. > :16:13.better. What percentage of the economy is this going to be? Revenue
:16:13. > :16:21.wise, we believe that it will eventually be 14 to 15% of the
:16:21. > :16:25.revenue. If you want this level of support from mining and oil, if
:16:25. > :16:34.Afghanistan is to realise its potential, it needs a strong leader.
:16:34. > :16:41.Otherwise talking about $1 trillion is a whole farce according to this.
:16:41. > :16:44.I just mention the numbers, I don't have to repeat them. But if somebody
:16:44. > :16:53.comes here to strike a deal with a mining concession, they will have to
:16:53. > :17:02.pay bribes. They absolutely have not. Look at the Chinese case. They
:17:02. > :17:04.have bribes. Look at the Indian case. But can you guarantee this? An
:17:04. > :17:08.international company wanting to come here to invest, it will not
:17:08. > :17:18.have to pay bribes to do business in Afghanistan? Absolutely. Absolutely
:17:18. > :17:19.
:17:19. > :17:26.not. They should come and see. you really believe that? Absolutely.
:17:26. > :17:31.Absolutely. And in the process of everyday life in Afghanistan? That
:17:31. > :17:38.is another thing. It is not just the top level. The process of everyday
:17:38. > :17:47.life seems to depend on protection money... We have for example,
:17:47. > :17:51.services and the municipality, no doubt about it. With the police.
:17:51. > :18:01.what is said to individuals? Do you say, don't pay? How do you deal with
:18:01. > :18:03.
:18:04. > :18:08.that? What I advocate is to be proactive. Believe in the punishment
:18:08. > :18:12.in response to corruption. If you have not put enough people behind
:18:12. > :18:18.bars who are not fighting corruption. I say, come and invest.
:18:18. > :18:28.You are already giving us money. Let's reform these institutions.
:18:28. > :18:31.
:18:31. > :18:41.Vehicle registration. The same money that could be spent on bribes has
:18:41. > :18:45.
:18:45. > :18:48.other uses. I say, help us, so that instead of three, it can be...
:18:49. > :18:54.if you want something done, passport, visa, they can't tell you
:18:54. > :18:59.when to get it back, so you pay. Absolutely. We need money for the
:18:59. > :19:04.system, we need investment. But use a punishment, people don't pay the
:19:04. > :19:07.police can end up in prison. I am not saying that they should not be
:19:07. > :19:12.law-enforcement or punishment for corruption. What am saying is that
:19:12. > :19:20.we could reduce 60 to 70% of the corruption by streamlining
:19:20. > :19:28.procedures. Investment is required. In some places we have already done
:19:28. > :19:34.that. Customs is one of those examples. You need to wean yourself
:19:34. > :19:40.off international aid. The Financial Times reported that the head of one
:19:40. > :19:44.foreign agency here just a few months ago said, need has been a
:19:44. > :19:47.curse. The reason he gave us that exports dry up as there are more
:19:48. > :19:56.rewards in going into business to support the donors than trying to
:19:56. > :20:00.export pomegranates. Really?It has been a curse. Each creates
:20:00. > :20:10.dependency and that is what we continuously pressure at the donor
:20:10. > :20:18.is to spend over -- to spend the aid in such a way that it is not create
:20:18. > :20:23.dependency, that it supports growth in Afghanistan. He said that the
:20:23. > :20:32.fears of what will happen after 2013 justified. What do you base that
:20:32. > :20:36.on? When you see growth coming from? Afghanistan has a three G
:20:36. > :20:44.network over three quarters of the country. Telecoms is a big thing.
:20:44. > :20:54.But whether you see growth coming from? Import substitution,
:20:54. > :20:54.
:20:54. > :20:58.consumption, construction. Housing. We need housing. We need a precious
:20:58. > :21:07.section, some of the best food, you must have seen it. Vegetables.
:21:07. > :21:09.International markets. But it cost four times as much to export
:21:09. > :21:15.something from you to the United States as it does to Pakistan.
:21:15. > :21:25.don't need to get our food from the United States. It is not even in
:21:25. > :21:27.
:21:27. > :21:33.Europe. We need that. We need trade. And of course the mining state
:21:33. > :21:39.sector. More than 2/3 of this country are under 25. The huge
:21:39. > :21:44.amount of young people who are now educated but won't necessarily have
:21:44. > :21:53.jobs. And the security challenge. You have disaffected youth who
:21:53. > :22:03.cannot get jobs. It is a challenge. As the Minister of Finance, within
:22:03. > :22:07.the government, my plea is that we focus spending on three things.
:22:07. > :22:12.Sustainable economic growth, job creation and revenue generation so
:22:12. > :22:16.that we become self-sufficient. you are confident in the next few
:22:16. > :22:25.years in Afghanistan that you can economically stable your own two
:22:25. > :22:31.feet? The roadmap that we have is by 2025. If, indeed, we spend in this
:22:31. > :22:37.focused way, the commitments of the international community. And of
:22:37. > :22:42.course the security, particularly for the private sector, that is