:00:05. > :00:15.years to come. That's all from me for now. Stay with us for a
:00:15. > :00:17.
:00:17. > :00:21.HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk. Greece has become the new gateway to
:00:21. > :00:26.Europe, receiving 90% of all illegal immigrants to the EU. That is
:00:26. > :00:30.according to the country 's Minister for public order. He also says that
:00:30. > :00:37.the Greek immigration problem may prove even greater than the
:00:37. > :00:47.financial one. How have the years of austerity impact on Greek society?
:00:47. > :00:55.
:00:55. > :01:01.The public order minister is here to tell us. Nikos Dendias, a warm
:01:01. > :01:09.welcome. The years of austerity have been extremely tough for the people
:01:09. > :01:14.of Greece. These think it has been worth it? What I have to say is that
:01:15. > :01:18.Greek society presented its best, it suffered a huge contraction of the
:01:18. > :01:26.economy, which I think is the first case we have ever seen without a
:01:26. > :01:32.huge public unrest, and on the other hand we are working and seeing light
:01:32. > :01:38.at the end of the tunnel. Looking at some of the figures. 27%
:01:39. > :01:44.unemployment, 64% youth unemployment. It's a very long
:01:44. > :01:53.tunnel that you are seeing light at the end. True, but like
:01:53. > :01:59.nevertheless. There is positive news as well. We have good on the
:01:59. > :02:09.pipeline, we can create surpluses in our budget. We do hope that we will
:02:09. > :02:09.
:02:09. > :02:17.see growth in 2014. There are positives in front of us. You have
:02:17. > :02:21.also had strokes and unrest in the streets. There are those who thought
:02:21. > :02:28.at one point that Greek democracy itself was being challenged. Did you
:02:28. > :02:36.ever feel about yourself that the future of democracy might be...
:02:36. > :02:42.Not at all. Public unrest has been much less than in previous years. I
:02:42. > :02:50.would say it Athens has been the most peaceful capital in Europe. Why
:02:50. > :03:00.you think that is? Because the Greek society is understood the magnitude
:03:00. > :03:00.
:03:00. > :03:05.of the problem. They tried their best. Let's talk about some of those
:03:05. > :03:11.challenges. You are clearly very concerned about immigration. You
:03:11. > :03:13.said that it could be a bigger problem than the financial crisis.
:03:13. > :03:19.Financial challenges are partly with our hands. If we do the right
:03:19. > :03:24.things, we will be able to see through the crisis and the difficult
:03:24. > :03:27.times and go on to a better future. On the other hand, illegal
:03:27. > :03:35.immigration has nothing to do with us. The causes of illegal
:03:35. > :03:40.immigration are far beyond what we can reach. It is also a place in the
:03:40. > :03:47.European geography that affects the very essence of the problem. Because
:03:47. > :03:53.you are nearest to Syria and Egypt where there may be further unrest.
:03:53. > :03:58.And Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Africa. We receive
:03:58. > :04:01.almost 90% of the illegal migrants of all of Europe. But they don't
:04:01. > :04:07.want to stay with you, do they? They want to go somewhere they can get
:04:07. > :04:11.jobs. That is true. But nevertheless, several hundred
:04:11. > :04:16.thousand are increase and they are a huge burden to our society. They
:04:16. > :04:22.apply huge pressure to a system, which as we're so before is coming
:04:22. > :04:25.out of a huge economic crisis. even though we understand the
:04:25. > :04:33.difficulties, you said the country is being lost and that what is
:04:33. > :04:36.happening now is Greece is biggest invasion ever. Is that really
:04:36. > :04:42.responsible for a government minister? It strikes fear of,
:04:42. > :04:46.doesn't it? Well, I am not happy with the amount of illegal
:04:46. > :04:50.immigration in the country. I am saying that the pressure that has
:04:50. > :04:58.been a pride to the Greek society and the systems of the great Society
:04:58. > :05:05.are enormous. You saying that the EU was not helping you enough? Yes.
:05:05. > :05:09.What should they do? Funding is required, and some sort of
:05:09. > :05:17.reallocation will stop we cannot handle several hundred illegal
:05:17. > :05:21.migrants by ourselves. But looking at the figures. Illegal immigrant
:05:21. > :05:24.figures are always difficult, but legal immigration has actually gone
:05:24. > :05:29.down quite a lot, some of them have left because economic conditions are
:05:29. > :05:35.very bad. Illegal immigrants, the regular at migrants that the EU
:05:35. > :05:40.calls them, you have conceded that they want to go somewhere else. So
:05:40. > :05:44.what is actually the problem? not allowed to send them anywhere
:05:44. > :05:47.else. If we could agree with the European Union and send them
:05:47. > :05:53.somewhere else, that would be fine, but the shop on our doorstep and
:05:53. > :05:57.they are stuck with us. We are a responsible country and won't allow
:05:57. > :06:01.them to pass our borders to our partners, but we would like European
:06:01. > :06:05.solidarity and decision-making. After we have finished with the
:06:05. > :06:11.procedure of returns, some of them could be returned to that country of
:06:11. > :06:15.origin. The remaining part should be divided between European countries
:06:15. > :06:22.based on for example, the area of the country or the GDP of the
:06:22. > :06:26.country or the population of the country. It can't be right for a
:06:26. > :06:33.small country under a huge economic crisis to have the burden of the
:06:33. > :06:36.illegal immigrants of the whole of Europe. That said, Greece is a
:06:36. > :06:40.hospitable place. You have a tourist economy and you like visitors to
:06:41. > :06:45.come. Why can't you treat some of these people, who are in terrible
:06:45. > :06:49.circumstances, a bit better. You have been very seriously criticised
:06:49. > :06:56.for the detention camps and the way in which the migrants are treated.
:06:56. > :07:01.Let me tell you about that. Firstly, we don't consider them
:07:01. > :07:07.detention camps. They are pre- removal centres. Secondly, we have
:07:07. > :07:11.been closing them one after the other. We have closed five and
:07:11. > :07:19.reopened five new ones which are much better, as modern as they could
:07:19. > :07:23.be. Services are up to standards. Not everybody in the EU would agree
:07:23. > :07:29.with that. You have had some criticism from the EU itself for the
:07:29. > :07:34.way you handle this. I have to say that I am not of the same opinion as
:07:34. > :07:42.you. I have seen very positive remarks from the Council of
:07:42. > :07:49.ministers. Of course there is criticism. In May 2013 she spoke of
:07:49. > :07:56.conditions in Greek detention centres as being not up to standard.
:07:56. > :08:03.That was the old ones. The new ones have opened and everybody is invited
:08:03. > :08:10.to chat. Nobody says that we are perfect. But within the crisis and
:08:10. > :08:18.the budget, we are doing our best. We are spending 240 million of own
:08:18. > :08:22.money on illegal immigrants per year. We get much less than that
:08:22. > :08:26.from the EU. A huge amount of money that do we not have is being spent
:08:26. > :08:34.for the welfare of these people. We are not counting on that figure the
:08:34. > :08:37.amount for it and healthcare which is enormous in its own right.
:08:37. > :08:47.are the very clear that more money from the EU good health but not only
:08:47. > :08:47.
:08:47. > :08:53.money. Let me focus on one specific question which is about Syrians.
:08:53. > :08:59.There are 100,000 dead in Syria and many people who have been displaced.
:08:59. > :09:09.Turkey has many of them. We do not consider Syrians illegal migrants.
:09:09. > :09:10.
:09:10. > :09:18.They are refugees. Then why have many of them being arrested? They
:09:18. > :09:25.have not been arrested, they are being detained. But they are not
:09:25. > :09:31.being granted asylum. We have a new asylum authority. More than 25% are
:09:31. > :09:39.being let in. The Syrians are getting protection. They are under
:09:39. > :09:43.international attraction. But the message that some people are getting
:09:43. > :09:51.from this is that you are not welcome in Greece, please go
:09:51. > :10:01.somewhere else. You launched an operation called Zen 's zoos, is
:10:01. > :10:06.that correct? Last summer. Yes. was necessary to do it. The border
:10:06. > :10:15.with Turkey was in a situation where we have something like 400 illegal
:10:15. > :10:20.immigrants passing through per day. At the centre of Greece was becoming
:10:20. > :10:28.a ghetto. Greeks were leaving, criminality was everywhere. We had
:10:28. > :10:32.ended somewhere. Are you satisfied with the way that was conducted? You
:10:32. > :10:39.been criticised by human rights groups? Some said it was a racist
:10:39. > :10:44.pogrom. What we did was protect the Greek society and protect those
:10:44. > :10:50.migrants. Those illegal migrants were victimised by Greeks and what
:10:50. > :10:55.we did was what every country or any country has the right to do. We
:10:55. > :11:00.protect our border and protect our citizens and applied human rights
:11:00. > :11:04.even to people who are illegally within the country. It is certainly
:11:04. > :11:11.true that there have been victimised by people traffickers and criminal
:11:11. > :11:21.elements. But Human Rights Watch certainly says so. But it also says
:11:21. > :11:22.
:11:22. > :11:27.that Greek police forcibly took many of two police stations but found
:11:27. > :11:33.that very few of them were actually illegal. They are casting an
:11:33. > :11:38.extraordinarily wide net. That is not true at all. Then you apply per
:11:38. > :11:40.sale in your entitled to stay legally. But in that period, you are
:11:40. > :11:43.legally. But in that period, you are not legally in the country. The
:11:43. > :11:51.police have every right to check on the papers of those people. They
:11:51. > :11:57.were just checking. If all of them, or those who have the right to
:11:57. > :12:03.remain in Greece foreign amount of time, they are sent free from the
:12:03. > :12:07.police station. What is wrong with that? Isn't this a weight of
:12:07. > :12:14.resources, pulling in 85,000 people, when there are a small
:12:14. > :12:19.minority? We have the data for those people now. We have files for them.
:12:19. > :12:22.We know who they are. We know who is in the country. Human rights watch
:12:22. > :12:30.claimed that almost everyone interviewed by human rights watch
:12:30. > :12:40.complained about rude, and unpleasant behaviour from the
:12:40. > :12:43.
:12:43. > :12:49.police. I did not see even one policeman being sued. Being sued?
:12:49. > :12:57.That is quite difficult if you are an immigrant. We have about 86,000
:12:57. > :13:02.people, not even on? CU think there are no cases, that the human rates
:13:02. > :13:08.-- human rights Court of it wrong? They're not seeing the Greek police
:13:08. > :13:17.are perfect, AMC and they're doing the best under the circumstances. --
:13:17. > :13:22.I am saying they are doing their best. If cases do exist that are not
:13:22. > :13:30.-- that I am not aware of, a welcoming a judicial process against
:13:30. > :13:32.the officer involved. As another aspect of this. The European
:13:32. > :13:37.commission of human rights says the impunity for the rising number of
:13:37. > :13:45.racist crimes in Greece has to end. Do you accept that racist crimes are
:13:45. > :13:51.on the rise? He says Greek police are not investigating them properly.
:13:51. > :13:54.Impunity doesn't exist. Every crime is being investigated. For the
:13:54. > :14:00.crimes to be investigated thoroughly, we have created a
:14:00. > :14:07.special squad within the police force. Every crime, not just racist
:14:07. > :14:12.crime, but especially racist crime, is being investigated. The people
:14:12. > :14:20.who act unlawfully should be in prison. One example you reported was
:14:20. > :14:29.the fatal stabbing of a worker I two criminals, one was linked to a Nazi
:14:29. > :14:39.party. The people you mention have been apprehended. A much worried
:14:39. > :14:48.about the party. They are clearly a neo-Nazi party. You have no doubts
:14:48. > :14:53.about this? The core of the party is neo-Nazi. The core of the party is
:14:53. > :15:01.neo-Nazi. It is something very dangerous for democracy and very
:15:01. > :15:08.dangerous and completely against European and Greek values. The river
:15:08. > :15:13.huge amount of illegal immigrants. -- there is a huge amount. The fact
:15:13. > :15:19.that they created ghettos, that was the beginning of the party. So the
:15:19. > :15:24.two things are linked in your view? Illegal immigrants and the people
:15:24. > :15:28.saying they are losing Greece? are losing their rights. They are
:15:28. > :15:33.afraid they are losing their rights. This is leading to the rise of
:15:33. > :15:38.Golden Dawn, who took 7% of the votes in the past election. That is
:15:38. > :15:45.a very sizeable part of the population that supports a Nazi
:15:45. > :15:48.party. It would be impossible for me to agree that have percent of the
:15:48. > :15:52.Greek population had become Nazis. During the second World War, one
:15:52. > :15:58.ninth of the Greek population perished because of the Nazi
:15:58. > :16:06.occupation. I are not free to accept that Greek society has become the
:16:06. > :16:15.Nazis. We have to figure out what is happening. If you add up the
:16:16. > :16:21.economic crisis, that is why the party is doing well. I am not saying
:16:21. > :16:27.we will be soft on them. There have also been reports of some police
:16:27. > :16:33.officers saying to crime victims, if you want help, go to Golden Dawn.
:16:33. > :16:39.have had it myself, but have had no proof. Your view of that if it
:16:39. > :16:44.happens, is presumably... There are reports that a large number of
:16:44. > :16:54.police are voting for Golden Dawn. cannot control what people vote in
:16:54. > :16:55.
:16:55. > :17:00.May country. Nobody can. I am aware of the phenomenon. They have to
:17:00. > :17:06.abide by the law and by police regulations. It would be extremely
:17:06. > :17:13.worrying for you in your official capacity if a section of the police
:17:13. > :17:21.force were voting for a neo-Nazi party. If you look at the Golden
:17:21. > :17:28.Dawn Page on the Internet, you will see that their prime target, and
:17:28. > :17:31.archenemy is the police force. Those two things do not go together.
:17:31. > :17:37.is their threat to Greek democracy? Do you think they have peaks? They
:17:37. > :17:43.seem to be becoming more and more attractive. What are you worried
:17:43. > :17:50.about? If we succeed with dealing with the migration phenomena and we
:17:50. > :17:53.can show the Greek public that we will come out of the crisis, we will
:17:53. > :17:57.face down the Golden Dawn phenomenon. One other aspect of
:17:57. > :18:02.this, I want to talk about the future of how you see things, what
:18:02. > :18:09.other highly political question has been the antiracism bills, various
:18:09. > :18:15.alternatives. Why has your party decided, unlike the pollution
:18:15. > :18:18.parties you will not supported. thought it was legally wrong. There
:18:18. > :18:25.were mistakes in the way it was drafted. The existing legislation
:18:25. > :18:30.could support because much better than creating new legislation.
:18:30. > :18:35.is that set your face against all possibilities? What would you
:18:35. > :18:39.consider? In terms of the message that has then sent out, it will be
:18:39. > :18:44.tough on illegal migrants, who said you would like more help from the EU
:18:44. > :18:53.to do so, would it not help defuse these criticisms if you supported an
:18:53. > :19:00.antiracism bill? People criticises not supporting that girl, I am sure
:19:00. > :19:04.that no one has the bill and no one knows what the existing policy is.
:19:04. > :19:10.We are seeing we have enough laws. Some changes may be needed, but
:19:10. > :19:16.creating new legislation will not help, it will create more opposition
:19:17. > :19:26.in persecuting those people. How the UCB light in the tunnel being
:19:27. > :19:27.
:19:27. > :19:34.achieved? -- how do you see the light at the tunnel? The illegal
:19:34. > :19:40.migration needs to resolve, at least be addressed. The European North
:19:40. > :19:44.would understand that the problems of the South to work here. In terms
:19:44. > :19:50.of how long that may work, the river is a say if Greece does everything
:19:50. > :19:55.that is expected of it, if it can accept the bitter pill of austerity
:19:55. > :20:05.it will still be difficult in 2020. Ames reaches say we do not have 20
:20:05. > :20:08.
:20:08. > :20:12.picoseconds seven years. -- I am sorry to say. Unless things change
:20:13. > :20:16.and Greek society, we will have trouble. In what sense?The
:20:16. > :20:24.electorate will feel they have been let down. So there will be a
:20:24. > :20:29.rejection? You face a party in the right, Holden Dawn, and a party of
:20:29. > :20:35.the left. Is that your concern? You have a year to convince the Greek
:20:35. > :20:45.people it is working? We need to show them clear signs their life
:20:45. > :20:46.
:20:46. > :20:50.could get better. How much is riding on how well you do? A lot. Things
:20:50. > :20:56.are doing well already. Though we can predict what is happening in the
:20:56. > :21:06.next three months, but we are well into it and it is doing superbly.
:21:06. > :21:08.
:21:08. > :21:11.That is why Greece's image is important? Yes.Do you ever think it
:21:11. > :21:16.would have been better to get out of the euro and to return to your
:21:16. > :21:24.currency? I do not see any future in getting out of the row and that is
:21:24. > :21:31.not the any future in getting out of Europe. I am confident that we are
:21:31. > :21:36.going to survive. You understand that it is not confined to Greece,
:21:36. > :21:46.this sense of disillusionment people have in Portugal in Spain, about how
:21:46. > :21:48.
:21:48. > :21:54.the euro - euroscepticism is not just a British phenomenon. We have
:21:54. > :22:00.part of the European dream that we believe in. If we do not hold it up,
:22:00. > :22:06.those with a negative view will be proven right. How far is resentment
:22:06. > :22:11.of Germany's involvement still a big issue in the country? Some parts of
:22:11. > :22:19.the programme were wrong. The strongest countries should have seen
:22:19. > :22:25.that from the beginning. There was a huge growth of 3,0%. That was more
:22:25. > :22:35.than any country can sustain. It is obvious that something is imposed on
:22:35. > :22:37.