:00:09. > :00:12.Bolivia is -- Bolivia has confirmed that they have received an asylum
:00:12. > :00:19.requests and protesters in the streets call for the US embassy to
:00:19. > :00:22.shut down. Now on BBC News: HARDtalk. Britain's Prime Minister
:00:22. > :00:32.David Cameron once accused Pakistan of facing both ways in the fight
:00:32. > :00:33.
:00:33. > :00:36.against terrorism. More recently he said the countries must 'stand
:00:36. > :00:43.together'. Gavin Esler speaks to Khawaja Khalid Farooq who was very
:00:43. > :00:45.recently head of Pakistan's National Counter Terrorism Authority. Does
:00:46. > :00:48.David Cameron's change of tone represent a new understanding that
:00:48. > :00:52.Pakistan is bearing a heavy burden of fighting and suffering great
:00:52. > :01:02.losses? Or is it part of a western panic that Pakistan may be in such
:01:02. > :01:22.
:01:22. > :01:28.trouble that public criticism is no serious is the security situation,
:01:28. > :01:35.the terrorist situation in your country? I think over a period of
:01:35. > :01:42.time it has not been improving. It is bad. Unfortunately, there are
:01:42. > :01:49.many forces and sides. There are localised forces and terrorist
:01:49. > :01:59.activities. For example, if you analyse the situation in Karachi, it
:01:59. > :02:02.
:02:02. > :02:09.would be different than in other places. They do have linkages
:02:09. > :02:15.amongst themselves, but these groups are quite independent. They do get
:02:15. > :02:25.together and are in contact with each other. I think Pakistani is
:02:25. > :02:26.
:02:26. > :02:30.bleeding. It is facing a lot of hardship. The problems are there.
:02:30. > :02:38.noticed that opinion polls suggest 98% of Pakistani is said terrorism
:02:38. > :02:41.is a big problem. It must affect this, although there are different
:02:41. > :02:50.reasons and different parts of your copper kidded country, it must
:02:50. > :03:00.affect the way people think about their lives -- complicated country.
:03:00. > :03:01.
:03:01. > :03:05.Yes, definitely. When this started in Pakistan decided to be part of
:03:05. > :03:13.it, things were not that bad. We go by the fact and figures, things were
:03:13. > :03:20.entirely different. When our activities started, when we started
:03:20. > :03:27.flushing up criminals, all these militants started spreading
:03:27. > :03:32.throughout Pakistan. Throughout tribal areas. Yes. Things went from
:03:32. > :03:41.bad to worse. Was it a mistake to get involved in the global war on
:03:41. > :03:45.terror than? There was a lot of pressure from America, it was
:03:45. > :03:51.difficult for Pakistan to stay away, but there were different policy
:03:51. > :03:58.options that could have been discussed. I don't think we can have
:03:58. > :04:04.more discussion but the point of this is that initially when
:04:04. > :04:11.insurgencies were conducted, the initial phases of a couple of years
:04:11. > :04:19.had a different opinion about this. We had some positive ideas about
:04:19. > :04:28.them, as freedom fighters fighting against occupations. But lately,
:04:28. > :04:35.things have changed. People started feeling, they saw the true picture.
:04:35. > :04:45.When they saw the Taliban occupying, acting as a default rule
:04:45. > :04:48.
:04:48. > :04:54.are in an area, they wanted to enforce their religious
:04:54. > :05:02.sectarianism. Stopping women and girls going to schools. That was a
:05:02. > :05:10.turning point. Some estimates say that 13,000 civilians have been
:05:10. > :05:15.killed since the War on terror started. Some say 50,000.It's
:05:15. > :05:20.terrible. We have seen even in the last month or two one of the top
:05:20. > :05:30.prosecutors of the Benazir Bhutto case murdered. The son of a former
:05:30. > :05:30.
:05:30. > :05:37.prime minister was kidnapped. Mosques have been burnt. An attempt
:05:37. > :05:45.was made on the life of an Israeli High Court judge. It appears to be
:05:45. > :05:50.sectarian sponsored. But things are getting worse. Even if they are not
:05:50. > :06:00.getting worse, there are not so comfortable for the common man. It
:06:00. > :06:01.
:06:01. > :06:06.is affecting investment, in economy, unemployment is going up. You wrote
:06:06. > :06:12.in a newspaper in Pakistan recently that the complete elimination of
:06:12. > :06:15.terrorism may not be possible. Why did you say that? Because it is a
:06:15. > :06:23.long process. Even in developed countries, do you believe that you
:06:23. > :06:29.have been successful in eliminating terrorism? Not here, not in America.
:06:29. > :06:35.So how can it happen in Pakistan. One should try for that. But it is
:06:35. > :06:40.difficult to achieve. You also wrote an article that the important thing
:06:40. > :06:46.was to reduce the supply of terrorists. It puzzles us here in
:06:46. > :06:50.Britain, but certainly in Pakistan, what is it that leaves young
:06:50. > :06:57.Pakistani men to become soldiers enchanted with the society and the
:06:57. > :07:05.country that they are prepared to kill others and themselves? -- so
:07:05. > :07:15.disenchanted. There are multifarious factors. Social and economic ones
:07:15. > :07:20.
:07:20. > :07:29.are important. Globalisation is going on. For a small amount of
:07:29. > :07:31.money, $500, people can be induced to go for a suicide bombing. Their
:07:31. > :07:41.families have been murdered, indoctrination is happening. There
:07:41. > :07:45.
:07:45. > :07:55.are many factors. I tell you, the positive thing about Pakistani is
:07:55. > :07:55.
:07:55. > :08:03.that the general public is not like this. 98% of people have heard that
:08:04. > :08:07.criticised these activities. They are peaceloving people. As things
:08:07. > :08:15.are, unfortunately, we have not been able to handle the situation
:08:15. > :08:21.properly and there have been a lack of proper counterterrorism and
:08:21. > :08:31.counter extremism strategies. talk about that. The organisation
:08:31. > :08:32.
:08:32. > :08:40.you let players -- plays a role. But people in Pakistan do hate terrorism
:08:40. > :08:45.but they have no ability to do much about it. When you look at the
:08:45. > :08:55.transparency International studies suggesting that Pakistan was 134 out
:08:55. > :08:59.of 185 countries for proper option, and -- corruption, and one of the
:08:59. > :09:05.most corrupt organisations with the police. So how can the public trust
:09:05. > :09:11.the government on this. Corruption is prevalent in almost all the
:09:11. > :09:17.departments and this is one major scourge we are facing. I think
:09:17. > :09:24.ultimately it will depend on a ruling government to draft laws,
:09:24. > :09:34.giving an example to the others, and is placed stringent efforts against
:09:34. > :09:38.the corrupt people. The other positive thing I would say is that
:09:38. > :09:43.if you things have emerged in the Pakistan scenario. One is the
:09:43. > :09:52.independent media, the electronic media. They are very powerful factor
:09:52. > :10:02.is attacking those negative factors in Pakistan, and bringing a talk
:10:02. > :10:03.
:10:03. > :10:11.show at 8pm on everyday on the TV channel, with likeable programmes.
:10:11. > :10:14.This is happening everywhere. The second thing is that the
:10:14. > :10:22.effectiveness of the independent judiciary on street level. They are
:10:22. > :10:29.very strict. There are positive changes. But you would accept that
:10:29. > :10:35.the military intelligence basically does not get on with civilian
:10:35. > :10:41.intelligence people? There is a lack of co-ordination. Definitely. The
:10:41. > :10:48.problem is everywhere. That is why the Department of Homeland Security
:10:48. > :10:56.was established in America. That is why you have two organisations in
:10:56. > :11:00.Britain. It is correct to say that a lack of co-ordination amongst
:11:00. > :11:09.civilian and army intelligence is a problem. It has to co-ordinate with
:11:09. > :11:15.other things. It has to be able to get it done without facing problems
:11:15. > :11:20.for military intelligence. It is not just co-ordination though, is it? We
:11:20. > :11:27.have seen, for instance, WikiLeaks expose some of the inner sinkings of
:11:28. > :11:29.the American ambassador, who said that the Pakistani army and the ISI
:11:29. > :11:35.are covertly sponsoring terrorist groups including the Afghan
:11:35. > :11:40.Taliban. What was exposed there is that the Americans believe that
:11:40. > :11:45.within the Pakistani state there are people who support the terrorists
:11:45. > :11:55.that you're supposed to be fighting. Individual level support or
:11:55. > :11:55.
:11:55. > :12:04.opposition can be there, but I think this is an misnomer. It has been
:12:04. > :12:14.propagated against. Are simple questionnaires, why have they got so
:12:14. > :12:20.
:12:20. > :12:26.many people killed if that is the case? Army personnel. It is true
:12:26. > :12:29.that many members of the armed forces in Pakistan feel that way.
:12:29. > :12:34.are fighting a very harrowing battle. It is simple to say these
:12:34. > :12:44.things sitting over here but it is difficult when you are in the middle
:12:44. > :12:44.
:12:44. > :12:52.of the war. One thing. Between Afghanistan and was a stone
:12:52. > :12:57.borderers, there are almost 233 passes through which these people
:12:57. > :13:00.can travel. I understand that difficulty, but what I am trying to
:13:00. > :13:05.get out, is when you have the American saying what they are
:13:05. > :13:13.saying, and the head of the Afghan National Army who we talked to and
:13:13. > :13:20.she said that the fight with the Taliban would be over in weeks if
:13:20. > :13:24.the Pakistan government wanted it to be. Others have said the government
:13:24. > :13:29.does not have the wheel to go up after people who are blowing a
:13:29. > :13:33.mosques. Various sources are saying that while great sacrifices are
:13:33. > :13:42.being made, senior figures in the administration are helping the
:13:42. > :13:48.terrorists. What benefit is Pakistan going to get out of this? They want
:13:48. > :13:58.to destroy Pakistan. No sane person would damage or destroy their own
:13:58. > :13:59.
:13:59. > :14:03.country. We our one of the most victimised countries in the war
:14:03. > :14:13.against terror. We are the worst sufferer and the whole game. Our
:14:13. > :14:15.
:14:15. > :14:21.economy, our social fragments. you are doing your utmost in a spy?
:14:21. > :14:29.At the individual level, I don't know. There could be individual
:14:29. > :14:39.sympathies, but I don't think so. you think the American and Indians
:14:39. > :14:57.
:14:57. > :15:06.use or wrong? Another thing I would say, . What stops him from attacking
:15:06. > :15:10.those people who are attacking Pakistan? We are realising that we
:15:10. > :15:14.are the principal actors in the war against terror. David Cameron did
:15:14. > :15:19.say three years ago that Pakistan was looking both ways. He was
:15:19. > :15:26.another voice. Now he is saying that we had to stand with you. But he
:15:26. > :15:34.seems to feel that Pakistan does look both ways. You have a different
:15:34. > :15:39.policy approach. What people feel over that, they say that we had done
:15:39. > :15:48.enough, that is what the people say. The people of Pakistan? That is what
:15:48. > :15:52.they say. $5 billion of damage economically, then on. Which other
:15:53. > :16:01.country has suffered so much? Bin Laden was killed by the
:16:01. > :16:06.Americans in Pakistan. If the military had protected them, I do
:16:06. > :16:16.not think they would have been able to chase him out. It was not in our
:16:16. > :16:19.
:16:19. > :16:25.knowledge. There are failures in wars in many ways, but intelligence
:16:25. > :16:31.was provided to the Americans which was later worked upon. But your
:16:31. > :16:34.allies do not trust you. Is that how it is seen in Pakistan? You were in
:16:34. > :16:44.the swat that you were suffering horrendously, and the Americans do
:16:44. > :16:54.not trust you. -- in this war. is the sad part. That is the failed
:16:54. > :16:57.
:16:57. > :17:06.project in the provinces. But one thing, the thinking of Pakistani
:17:06. > :17:10.people, one is that Osama Bin Laden was killed. There were no
:17:10. > :17:19.demonstrations from the Pakistani people. Most of them were glad he
:17:19. > :17:29.was killed. Yes. Number two, recent elections. I have been talking to
:17:29. > :17:31.
:17:31. > :17:34.many people, the same people are not as extremist. How does the
:17:34. > :17:44.irritation, the anger about drone attacks, how does it plane into
:17:44. > :17:45.
:17:45. > :17:49.this? -- how does it play. Target wise, they may be very successful in
:17:49. > :17:56.achieving their targets, but as far as public opinion, then at our two
:17:56. > :18:00.issues. One is sovereignty. people are offended that the
:18:00. > :18:05.Americans are attacking people in your country, even if they do not
:18:05. > :18:15.like the people who are being killed. Yes. Number two, innocent
:18:15. > :18:18.
:18:18. > :18:22.casualties. The ratio of target to other civilians is one to 12. That
:18:22. > :18:32.is the ratio of targets, one target the innocent. But the important
:18:32. > :18:37.point is, you hardly get any details. Excepting some very
:18:37. > :18:45.important people who may be killed by drones. What about the innocent,
:18:45. > :18:50.and nobody knows. The former Pakistan High Commissioner in
:18:50. > :18:55.Britain, he has just written a book in which he says, with his knowledge
:18:55. > :18:58.of Waziristan and other areas, that the drone attacks have been causing
:18:58. > :19:02.particular damage to tribal societies, and they are making it
:19:02. > :19:07.even more difficult for the Central government and they destabilise the
:19:07. > :19:15.making making things worse to win the war
:19:15. > :19:23.against terrorism. Is that how you see it? If drones are to be utilised
:19:23. > :19:30.for the purpose, let the government of Pakistan take the responsibility.
:19:30. > :19:40.Would they do that? Would they agree to the drone attacks? If it is
:19:40. > :19:41.
:19:41. > :19:47.handed over jointly. It could be done if it is required. It would be
:19:47. > :19:52.difficult for the politicians. the point is this, if they do not
:19:52. > :19:57.want to, that is a different situation. How do you view the
:19:57. > :20:01.future of your country? You have talked at bit about economic
:20:01. > :20:06.underdevelopment and not enough jobs, growth in India is outpacing
:20:06. > :20:11.that of Pakistan and has been for many years, literacy is a problem,
:20:11. > :20:18.and the terrorism that we have talked about. How do you view the
:20:18. > :20:23.future, in five -10 years of your country? The only major problem that
:20:23. > :20:32.we are facing is terrorism. If we manage to control it to a reasonable
:20:32. > :20:41.extent, there is no stopping Pakistan to develop. Things were
:20:41. > :20:51.going on quite well. You can see the past history. Things were improving.
:20:51. > :20:57.
:20:57. > :20:59.People are resilient. They have the wheel to develop. Although the new
:20:59. > :21:06.Prime Minister has been talking about a meeting of all the
:21:07. > :21:12.stakeholders. I feel that he must be thinking about it. As soon as
:21:13. > :21:18.possible, they should be a meeting of all stakeholders on this issue,
:21:18. > :21:22.and there should be consensus, and when the consensus is arrived at, we
:21:22. > :21:28.should go for a full flag into -- implementation of whatever is
:21:28. > :21:31.decided. And when you have an outsider like David Cameron, who
:21:31. > :21:41.says that they must stand together with the people of Pakistan, what
:21:41. > :21:42.
:21:42. > :21:46.does that mean? What could they do for you? What I would understand,
:21:46. > :21:52.they would be supporting Pakistan in this hour will of need, and that
:21:52. > :22:02.Britain is ready doing a good job in Pakistan. A couple of things which I
:22:02. > :22:04.
:22:04. > :22:10.know. They are investing in the education department. In a
:22:10. > :22:18.province, they are helping capacity building of police. They are doing
:22:18. > :22:24.something on forensics as well. If you increase and enhance the
:22:24. > :22:27.capacity of the police... Right. That is what you hope. But varies
:22:27. > :22:32.another prospect, that the central government will lose control
:22:32. > :22:36.completely, and it could become a failed state with nuclear weapons,
:22:36. > :22:46.180 million people in this pivotal area, it could be a disaster for
:22:46. > :22:47.
:22:47. > :22:54.everybody. . Absolutely no chance. People are with the government. The
:22:54. > :23:00.only thing they expect is to have a better governance. They will oust
:23:00. > :23:08.the government if they are not happy. The number of people, the
:23:08. > :23:15.percentage of young boys, the number of people who came out in the
:23:15. > :23:21.elections, that manifested how people feel about Pakistan. It is