:00:12. > :00:18.World Championships. It is now time for HARDtalk.
:00:18. > :00:23.Welcome to HARDtalk. My guess is one of only 24 self-made female
:00:23. > :00:28.billionaires in the world. Hers is a true rags to riches story. As a
:00:28. > :00:31.teenager Zhang Xin worked in a sweatshop in China. By her 20s she
:00:31. > :00:36.worked for Goldman Sachs and, disillusioned by Wall Street,
:00:36. > :00:40.returned to China to make a fortune in property development. What kind
:00:40. > :00:50.of China, a country heading for economic problems or an emerging
:00:50. > :01:02.
:01:02. > :01:08.democracy as well as an emerging personal story is quite
:01:08. > :01:14.extraordinary. Your parents were purged in the cultural Revolution.
:01:14. > :01:18.Your teenage years were spent partly in a sweatshop in Hong Kong. How was
:01:18. > :01:23.that? How did that seem to you? Did it seem like punishment or did it
:01:23. > :01:26.seem like this was the real world you are going to live in? I was born
:01:26. > :01:32.during the cultural Revolution in China, so I did not know any other
:01:32. > :01:38.way. Everybody grew up in China in those days were poor, deprived of
:01:38. > :01:42.any material means and wearing the same clothes, living in the same
:01:42. > :01:48.kind of apartments. We would go to schools and we learnt the same way
:01:48. > :01:55.of speaking. Even ideological, we were kind of guided in a certain
:01:55. > :01:59.way. Those were the days when before China was opened. By the time I
:01:59. > :02:05.moved to Hong Kong, even though I was working in the factory, it was
:02:05. > :02:13.an eye opening experience for me because the colours, the freedom,
:02:13. > :02:16.the noise, everything is so different. So it was a happy time?
:02:16. > :02:22.When I say working in a sweatshop you think it must have been
:02:22. > :02:28.terrible, but it was something you remember as enjoyable. I don't know
:02:28. > :02:31.I was that unhappy in China. Even when I was living in the cultural
:02:31. > :02:38.Revolution environment, it was a simple life that I as a child
:02:38. > :02:45.enjoyed. One of the observations of that time stuck with me. The workers
:02:45. > :02:54.in the short sharp -- sweatshop woodwork elsewhere for a slight
:02:54. > :02:59.increase in pay. Why did they do that? Because those were the days
:02:59. > :03:03.when Hong Kong was the manufacturer in China. -- manufacturing centre.
:03:03. > :03:09.That has now moved to China. Factories are not like what we
:03:09. > :03:14.imagine a big factory would be. The factory was in a high-rise building.
:03:14. > :03:19.One floor was a factory. One factory would be making the sleeves, another
:03:19. > :03:26.would be selling the zippers, another putting the collar on. If
:03:26. > :03:34.you are a worker and somebody above you pays you - because they pay by
:03:34. > :03:41.the peace dashed just pay by the peace - and want to pay you more,
:03:41. > :03:46.then you go. You studied at Cambridge. Your observations about
:03:46. > :03:49.the left-wing observations -- intellectuals and your professors
:03:49. > :03:58.had an interesting view of communism which didn't correlate with what you
:03:58. > :04:07.had seen. Not so much the professors, it was the students. I
:04:07. > :04:14.went to a club and a group of leftie students were very idealistic. They
:04:14. > :04:20.were idealising Marxism, socialism. I was sitting there and thinking,
:04:20. > :04:23.you have not been to a real country that is a socialist country. You
:04:23. > :04:33.really ought to be there and get a sense of what it is really like.
:04:33. > :04:38.This was the period with the slogan to get rich is glorious. Did you
:04:38. > :04:43.feel that this was a real period of change, that the Maoist past was
:04:43. > :04:48.being broken up? I came to this country in the 80s, just at the
:04:48. > :04:58.beginning of the opendoor policies. Very few have alleged Chinese like
:04:58. > :04:59.
:04:59. > :05:04.me were able to leave China. I came via Hong Kong. On the one hand I was
:05:04. > :05:11.fascinated in the Western world. On the other hand I was also very much
:05:11. > :05:15.focused on where China is leading to because everybody in China was
:05:16. > :05:22.talking about the future, the reforms, the open doors. What it
:05:22. > :05:26.meant to modernise China. That was also the beginning of the paradox,
:05:26. > :05:33.which we will get onto later, which is it was open and liberating, but
:05:33. > :05:37.he also kept a lid on. It was the period of Tiananmen Square as well
:05:37. > :05:42.as the openness. Two things going on in parallel. This is the thing about
:05:42. > :05:47.open doors. You open the door and people see something and they want
:05:47. > :05:54.more. There is no way back. You cannot say I open the door, opened
:05:54. > :05:58.as part and don't open another part. It is hard. It is still hard. You
:05:58. > :06:03.ended up in Wall Street. You are headhunted. This was the time people
:06:03. > :06:10.really wanted to invest in China. You didn't entirely like Wall
:06:10. > :06:14.Street, did you? I had a great training with Wall Street banks. I
:06:14. > :06:20.learned a lot about financial markets. I eventually benefited from
:06:20. > :06:28.a knowledge of the capital markets. It was also the kind of style of
:06:28. > :06:33.work that I did not enjoy so much. It was very hierarchical. It was one
:06:33. > :06:40.way of thinking only. You work on Wall Street, this is a glorious
:06:40. > :06:47.place and everything that you are supposed to subscribe to. As much as
:06:47. > :06:52.I enjoyed it, I was also dying to leave. You said, people spoke
:06:52. > :06:56.crassly that, treated each other badly, look down on the poor and
:06:56. > :07:02.adored the rich. It does sound like important of the greed is good
:07:02. > :07:07.generation. Wall Street bankers are undoubtably cutthroat and
:07:07. > :07:12.aggressive. I have seen a lot of that. Was there something about the
:07:12. > :07:16.amorality of it that really irritated you? Even though you are a
:07:16. > :07:19.very rich woman now, you are quite correct in your daily life. You
:07:19. > :07:29.don't give your kids a kitchenette of money. You don't travel first
:07:29. > :07:32.class. Is there something about that you just didn't like? I didn't feel
:07:32. > :07:35.it was a moral, I just felt it was very aggressive. The general
:07:35. > :07:44.environment was aggressive and competitive to the point that I felt
:07:44. > :07:51.that it was suffocating. I didn't feel that... I didn't attach any
:07:52. > :07:56.moral values to that. You went back to China, you make your husband, you
:07:57. > :08:04.became business partners as well as marital partners. The China that you
:08:04. > :08:08.live in now, the President talks about the China dream. What does
:08:08. > :08:15.that mean for you? To be honest, I don't know what the China dream
:08:15. > :08:20.means. People talk about it in China so much because every president in
:08:20. > :08:25.China, every generation of leaders will come and they will have some
:08:25. > :08:30.things that belong to them. For the President now it is the China dream.
:08:30. > :08:34.I don't know what it is in the eyes of the government. I know what the
:08:34. > :08:40.China dream is in the eyes of the Chinese people. It is to live
:08:40. > :08:46.better, to modernise, to live freely, to speak freely. That is the
:08:46. > :08:53.dream of everybody. Is it a dream that has not quite been met,
:08:53. > :08:55.particularly on the live and speak freely aspects? Freer than my days.
:08:56. > :09:03.This is the thing about the character of freedom. People only
:09:03. > :09:07.want more and more and more. That is unstoppable? That is unstoppable.In
:09:08. > :09:10.terms of the economics, part of the miracle is that more people have
:09:10. > :09:16.been pulled out of poverty in China in the past 20 years than in any
:09:16. > :09:20.other country in history. Do you worry that the boom bust eventually?
:09:21. > :09:29.That the property boom that you have been riding on robust? China at the
:09:29. > :09:35.moment is going into a challenging time. In the early stage, when it
:09:35. > :09:40.was relatively easy to just grow, exploit and open eyes. They lot of
:09:40. > :09:45.that has been exhausted. The migrants are moving from rural China
:09:45. > :09:52.into the cities. That has largely been exhausted, that surplus of
:09:52. > :09:59.labour. Also, urbanising cities and most of the cities in China are open
:09:59. > :10:03.eyes. -- urbanised. Clearly China is no longer growing like this. It has
:10:03. > :10:12.some challenges. People like us, who build buildings, are wondering what
:10:12. > :10:16.will be the next stage because you have built a lot. Someone who runs a
:10:17. > :10:21.-- an enormous property company says that if the bubble busts the result
:10:22. > :10:28.will be catastrophic. It seems as if he and you what he managed to slow
:10:28. > :10:31.down, rather than the inflation to just pop. I think China's growth has
:10:31. > :10:38.been previously driven by investment. A lot of it is
:10:38. > :10:43.government investment. Investment needs to have a return. When you see
:10:44. > :10:50.building standing there not being used, that is not giving a return to
:10:50. > :10:54.investors. That is when investments should slow down. That is what we
:10:54. > :10:58.face now. That is a very difficult decision for the government, isn't
:10:58. > :11:02.it? Your generation have certain expectations. It was pretty rough
:11:02. > :11:11.and it has got a lot better. The young generation, the teenagers now,
:11:11. > :11:18.may have varied different expectations. I think people want
:11:18. > :11:21.opportunities. I think there are plenty of opportunities in China. If
:11:21. > :11:26.you live in China and come to London you will see the vast difference. In
:11:26. > :11:29.nearly every effort -- in nearly every industry, we do not have it in
:11:29. > :11:38.China and we should do that. Some clever person will think about it as
:11:38. > :11:47.a business and as a profit. One of the problems with doing business in
:11:47. > :11:50.China, one of the works at every foreign businessmen loans, is
:11:50. > :12:00.connections. Some people equate that that
:12:00. > :12:06.that a difficult problem with full China? I think there is no doubt
:12:06. > :12:08.that there is a degree of corruption in China and a degree of
:12:08. > :12:14.relationship of connections that brings opportunities and profits to
:12:14. > :12:20.people. Bear in mind that we have also been given a tremendous
:12:20. > :12:29.technology today with social media and everything else. Things are so
:12:29. > :12:36.quickly exposed. That itself is the check and balance of the powers.
:12:36. > :12:40.Relationships in the matter when someone has absolute power. One
:12:40. > :12:49.person has the power and duty to benefit from it, then you make the
:12:49. > :12:56.relationship. A novelist once said that China used to be 70 70% talent
:12:56. > :13:04.and 30% and actions. As money made it worse? I operate in China and I
:13:04. > :13:09.can say that you can still operate without connections. I am not the
:13:09. > :13:16.daughter of anybody. I don't have a close relationship with any
:13:16. > :13:20.politicians. We still operate as a publicly listed company in China.
:13:20. > :13:24.The market is becoming more and more open. If I were to compare ten or 20
:13:25. > :13:28.years ago, yes there is corruption. Because of the openness, we are able
:13:28. > :13:34.to see the corruption. We find out more about it but it may not be any
:13:34. > :13:42.worse than it was before? You get so quickly exposed through the social
:13:42. > :13:52.media. You have 6 million followers on the Chinese equivalent of
:13:52. > :13:53.
:13:53. > :14:03.Twitter? Yes. Why? I write every day and people just like to read about
:14:03. > :14:10.stories of people. I think this is pushing the Chinese society to
:14:10. > :14:18.become progressive and open. Remember, 530 million people
:14:18. > :14:28.registered on Chinese Twitter. Anything you write will be instantly
:14:28. > :14:30.
:14:30. > :14:39.published. That itself is giving the grassroots incredible power.
:14:39. > :14:49.there. It has helped the government to regulate itself. It puts a lot of
:14:49. > :14:53.pressure on the government. One example. There was a local public
:14:53. > :15:01.security and there was an accident happened. The head of the police
:15:01. > :15:08.went down to see the accident and somebody took a photo of, he smiled
:15:09. > :15:14.and this tragedy. People said why is he smiling? He should be serious and
:15:14. > :15:20.worrying. And then people immediately start searching about
:15:20. > :15:30.his background. They found out he owned 14 different watchers
:15:30. > :15:37.different watchers, roll it is. He is a public servant who could not
:15:37. > :15:44.afford Rolex. Within hours, photos of him wearing these different
:15:44. > :15:52.things came out. He was dubbed the watch uncle. Within 24 days, he was
:15:52. > :15:57.prosecuted. Where do you think this openness will lead? There is still
:15:57. > :16:02.the Chinese fire well -- firewall on all these things. Where do you think
:16:02. > :16:10.the will lead the government to go to? Is China going to be an emerging
:16:10. > :16:13.democracy? China is going to become more open. It is not something
:16:13. > :16:23.anyone can stop. We have been given this incredible to knowledge he,
:16:23. > :16:28.this is what is available for humanity. Anyone can Twitter, can be
:16:28. > :16:38.online, information is instantly available. That is a great check and
:16:38. > :16:39.
:16:39. > :16:43.balance the power. But is it? One Chinese diplomats described this as
:16:43. > :16:49.flies coming in. Things that are not entirely welcome. But what can you
:16:49. > :16:57.do? The only way you can do is to close the door you cannot close the
:16:57. > :17:04.door. One writer says that if China was to move towards democracy, it
:17:04. > :17:07.would become catastrophic. It is to big. It would be as if the river is
:17:07. > :17:13.flooding and people were drowned because democracy would not work in
:17:13. > :17:19.China. I think we would look back in this period of history in humanity
:17:19. > :17:24.and realise that from the 20th century to now, humanity, in
:17:24. > :17:30.countries around the world, are embracing democracy. China is no
:17:30. > :17:34.different. The Chinese people are no different to any other people.
:17:34. > :17:38.have talked about socialism with Chinese characteristics. Could it be
:17:38. > :17:44.a democracy with Chinese characteristics? Could it be very
:17:44. > :17:47.slow because it has to go through the party. I do think that one thing
:17:47. > :17:53.is that the demand is there. The public desire is there. The tools
:17:53. > :18:01.are there. In terms of voicing the public through the online social
:18:01. > :18:09.media. The government, the way the government needs to deal with it is
:18:09. > :18:14.to respond to it. Not to deal with it pretending it won't come. It is
:18:14. > :18:21.precisely this question with Tiananmen Square. You have an
:18:21. > :18:25.economic slowdown. It may not be the bubble busting. But you have
:18:25. > :18:29.questions about economic reform. In the past that has led to the
:18:29. > :18:34.opposite of what you are talking about. Everybody keep in mind, that
:18:34. > :18:42.is where our prosperity will take us. Not the freedom and chaos that
:18:42. > :18:47.we saw in Russia when they moved from communism. That is a long time
:18:47. > :18:52.ago. That is pre- information time. Every bit thing is -- everything is
:18:52. > :19:02.moving in a different direction now. You are very optimistic aren't you?
:19:02. > :19:05.
:19:05. > :19:11.Yes. You mentioned that everybody looked the same in Mao 's China. Is
:19:11. > :19:14.there a place for women in Chinese business? I would say that being an
:19:14. > :19:21.entrepreneur in China is probably easier than in many other
:19:21. > :19:24.countries. Passe this because I have seen a lot of successful Chinese
:19:24. > :19:31.women -- I say this because I have seen a lot of successful Chinese
:19:31. > :19:38.women entrepreneurs. If you look at China, if you are just given man and
:19:38. > :19:44.women and equal opportunity, you would very often see women do quite
:19:44. > :19:46.well. I do not know the exact number, but I do know that for
:19:46. > :19:53.instance, the Olympic gold-medallists for China, there
:19:53. > :20:00.were far more women than men. This was a free competition. This is not
:20:00. > :20:04.about relationship is there is no glass ceiling. When women are given
:20:04. > :20:11.free and equal opportunities, in China they tend to perform better.
:20:11. > :20:17.But in politics. In politics, no. All addicts excels not been open to
:20:17. > :20:24.anybody. Men women. -- in politics not has been -- politics has not
:20:24. > :20:30.been open to anybody. It has to change. It is inevitable. We are
:20:30. > :20:34.seeing it around the world. Let us talk about the future. What would be
:20:34. > :20:40.the good scenario that you would like to see, in terms of the
:20:40. > :20:47.economy. You think that the slower rate of growth can be managed? What
:20:47. > :20:55.do you think that there is a bubble and it will burst? I think that the
:20:55. > :20:58.economy is getting into a very difficult time and I think that the
:20:58. > :21:03.change, because the exports, the economy cannot rely on exports and
:21:03. > :21:07.investment alone. There has to be a different way of managing the
:21:07. > :21:14.economy. We have not seen anything coming out from this new government
:21:15. > :21:18.yet. But I am optimistic in thinking, I don't believe that
:21:18. > :21:24.moving from high growth to relatively solid growth means a
:21:24. > :21:30.collapse of the economy. I don't believe that. I think companies,
:21:30. > :21:33.governments, individuals will adjust to that. It is a matter of
:21:33. > :21:38.certainty. Governments need to come out with a clear idea of where it
:21:38. > :21:44.where it is guiding the economy. Have you got idea of what that
:21:44. > :21:51.should be? It will be domestic consumption driven. Empowering the
:21:51. > :21:57.Chinese consumer to spend more? Do you think that is not the new
:21:57. > :22:02.government will consider? That will be something they have to do. If you
:22:02. > :22:07.are not relying on export, it has to be consumption. Consumption is so
:22:07. > :22:13.small as a percentage of GDP. Compared to the UK or the US there
:22:13. > :22:17.is huge room for growth. So for the ordinary Chinese person to spend
:22:17. > :22:23.their money wisely. And in terms of politics, trust the ordinary Chinese
:22:23. > :22:31.person to express what they believe freely, even if it is critical?
:22:31. > :22:37.And it is already happening. And is it being tolerated? Yes. It has been
:22:37. > :22:41.quite tolerated. I think it is also giving the government pressure to
:22:41. > :22:48.change for the better. Do you trust the government to react positively
:22:48. > :22:54.to this? I do not know. But it is a general public desire. The
:22:54. > :22:58.government has to respond to it. Ignoring it is not the way. So the
:22:58. > :23:02.big lesson is, the wealth will trickle down to ordinary people, who
:23:03. > :23:11.will have more say in how their country is one. That will be the
:23:11. > :23:19.Chinese dream. Right. And if the 14 -year-old sewing away in the switch
:23:19. > :23:26.at -- sweatshop in Hong Kong, what would see so? Different what would
:23:26. > :23:30.she say? I think she would want the same opportunities. The single
:23:30. > :23:35.element that changed my life is education. If I did not have the
:23:35. > :23:39.opportunity to live -- leave the Hong Kong sweatshop, to go to the UK
:23:39. > :23:46.and get an education, I would not have the opportunity to go to Wall
:23:46. > :23:53.Street and do what I do. If we look at Chinese society, it is so
:23:53. > :23:57.important, education. The government is doing quite well in terms of
:23:57. > :24:01.providing enough education. Everybody gets free education up to
:24:01. > :24:07.nine years in China. The quality of the education is still not quite