:00:07. > :00:17.head. You are up-to-date with the latest headlines. Now it is time for
:00:17. > :00:19.
:00:19. > :00:24.HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk. Albania is the single most corrupt
:00:24. > :00:28.country in Europe, according to Transparency International. My guess
:00:28. > :00:33.today, Edi Rama, has promised to change that when he becomes the
:00:33. > :00:37.Prime Minister in September. A modern artist, he won international
:00:37. > :00:42.plaudits for transforming the capital Tirana when he was a smear.
:00:42. > :00:47.Not least by paintiny paintin build buildings in bright colours. Now he
:00:47. > :00:57.has promised a renaissance for the whole country. Can he succeeds where
:00:57. > :01:19.
:01:19. > :01:23.you for inviting me. Why are you likely to be more successful in
:01:23. > :01:31.cleaning up Albania than previous politicians? This has two be seen
:01:31. > :01:36.but I think it is time to clean up the country. -- has to. We are
:01:37. > :01:41.talking about a country with immense problems. Transparency International
:01:41. > :01:46.says you are the single most corrupt country in Europe and you are
:01:46. > :01:55.slipping down the rankings. You are How will you address those
:01:55. > :01:59.challenges? It is a country with a bad reputation. It is not totally
:01:59. > :02:08.undeserved, of course. At the same time, it is a country with
:02:08. > :02:13.incredible potential and an immense amount of talent. That is in the
:02:13. > :02:19.country and leaving for abroad. To give you an example, at the time of
:02:19. > :02:25.the elections, I made an appeal to all the people that are young and
:02:25. > :02:32.talented inside or outside of the country who want to join the new
:02:32. > :02:42.team for Albania and the response has been incredibly positive. Now we
:02:42. > :02:45.
:02:45. > :02:49.have nearly 10,000 people making country. Of course, this will go
:02:49. > :02:53.through competitions and procedures but the response has been incredibly
:02:53. > :02:58.good. It means that there is hope and there is a strong will for
:02:58. > :03:04.change. You talk about the terrible image for the country and one which
:03:04. > :03:07.is not entirely undeserved. He once described it as the image of a land
:03:07. > :03:11.of prostitutes and illegal immigrants. Do you think that is
:03:11. > :03:17.still the perception of the country? This was something I said in the
:03:17. > :03:26.90s. It was 2003 Uber reported to have said it. Maybe. It was a long
:03:26. > :03:36.time ago. It is not true any longer. It was a disturbing stereotype for
:03:36. > :03:37.
:03:37. > :03:42.Albanians. The population does not deserve to be described as a country
:03:42. > :03:49.of prostitutes and so on. At the same time, I said it was not a
:03:49. > :03:56.deserved image. We are trying to deal with it. As a matter of fact,
:03:56. > :04:01.under the scrutiny of the European Union because of our process towards
:04:01. > :04:11.European integration, problems, it very clearly. We need to take a look
:04:11. > :04:15.at that. You have requested three consider Albania as a candidate,
:04:15. > :04:22.just a candidate, and it has rejected each of those applications,
:04:22. > :04:29.so you have not even got a foot in the process. That is because the
:04:29. > :04:33.forms have not been significant true that one of the main problems,
:04:33. > :04:40.may be the most disturbing one for the international community, has
:04:40. > :04:49.been the elections. The electoral process. Finally, after a long time,
:04:49. > :04:55.after many efforts and many sacrifices from the Albanian people
:04:55. > :04:59.and the opposition, I have the privilege to lead. -- the opposition
:04:59. > :05:04.I have the privilege to lead, we have had a normal election. Having
:05:04. > :05:14.passed this test, we can be domestic about having a positive answer. You
:05:14. > :05:14.
:05:14. > :05:20.would expect that? When?This year? I am hopeful that this will be the
:05:20. > :05:24.case in December or next spring. There are many concerns, not least
:05:24. > :05:28.corruption. We will get onto that in a minute. Let's talk about the
:05:28. > :05:34.election. You say you talk about the immense challenges in turning the
:05:34. > :05:38.country round. It is not clear that the public do think you are the man
:05:38. > :05:43.for the job. You were eight years in opposition. In this election, you
:05:43. > :05:51.only got one more seat than in the elections of four years ago. It was
:05:51. > :05:57.actually your coalition partner, from the Socialist Movement for
:05:57. > :06:04.Integration, that did very well. That party jumped from four to 16
:06:04. > :06:08.seats. This man, you have chosen to go into government with him. He was
:06:08. > :06:13.in the past government. Only two years ago you said that he
:06:13. > :06:23.exemplified everything that was rotten about Albania. It is true we
:06:23. > :06:30.have had a difficult past in terms of our relations inside the family
:06:30. > :06:37.of the left. This party has been born out of the spirit of the
:06:37. > :06:47.Socialist party. This is from some years ago. He has been in your
:06:47. > :06:47.
:06:47. > :06:54.rival, your archenemy... Yes. We decided to unite the whole left and
:06:54. > :06:59.enter into this campaign together with a coalition that succeeded. I
:06:59. > :07:08.do not know the arithmetic of the seats because we have a different
:07:08. > :07:16.system to hear. The amount of votes that we got, each of us, and at the
:07:16. > :07:26.same time altogether, that is due to the fact that Albania is looking for
:07:26. > :07:26.
:07:26. > :07:30.change. There are many reasons, but one of the reasons that you fell out
:07:30. > :07:35.and were critical of each other was an incident from a couple of years
:07:35. > :07:39.ago, video that appeared to show him discussing a bright and boasting of
:07:39. > :07:43.his influence over the chief justice. That was at a time and he
:07:43. > :07:46.was Deputy Prime Minister and Foreign Minister. He has denied
:07:46. > :07:52.wrongdoing and the Supreme Court dismissed the charges. When they
:07:52. > :07:56.did, you reported in the local media -- you were reported in the national
:07:56. > :08:04.towards towards an unjust regime. That is
:08:04. > :08:06.all true. At the same time, it is totally true that we need to look
:08:06. > :08:14.forward and give the Albanian people an alternative for change. We did
:08:14. > :08:18.that. We won the elections on the base of that programme. There was a
:08:18. > :08:26.programme for an Albanian Renaissance. The other field
:08:26. > :08:33.promises. -- they were field promises. We are now in front of the
:08:33. > :08:37.test, the exam. I know that you want to look for?I ? to look fornt to
:08:37. > :08:43.deal with significant events in Albania's yesterday. That video
:08:43. > :08:46.caused a great deal of concern. -- history. The other anticorruption
:08:46. > :08:56.demonstrations at which four people were killed by the National Guard,
:08:56. > :09:02.who were shooting from his office. You have said, and those cards were
:09:02. > :09:05.senior police officers, they were charged, acquitted, and you
:09:05. > :09:11.described it as the most barbarous decision for the most barbarous
:09:11. > :09:21.crime. This all stems from something two years ago. It is hard to see how
:09:21. > :09:27.you cannot deal with it. I don't what I have said two years ago. I
:09:27. > :09:34.think it is up to me to challenge the problems of the country,
:09:34. > :09:44.together with everyone that is ready to do it. As I said, we have two
:09:44. > :09:45.
:09:45. > :09:50.engagements. One of the engagements is to follow with all of the will
:09:50. > :09:57.the process that is supposed to be brought in of justice and to give
:09:57. > :10:07.the right decision against all of them who were responsible for the
:10:07. > :10:09.
:10:09. > :10:15.in government at the time, he was clear responsibilities. This will be
:10:15. > :10:18.sorted out by the court. We will come onto that. This man who will be
:10:18. > :10:22.come onto that. This man who will be part of your government, you are
:10:22. > :10:27.confident that he is clean. In your Renaissance of Albania, this is a
:10:27. > :10:31.man you can do business with because he is clean. You are confident of
:10:31. > :10:37.that? I strongly believe that when one has to deal with corruption and
:10:37. > :10:44.one has to deal with the deep problems created by corruption, you
:10:44. > :10:48.must always remember it is the system of corrupt people and not
:10:48. > :10:52.vice-versa. I believe that fighting corruption ?I ? corruption g the
:10:52. > :10:57.system and making less and less possible for people to take
:10:57. > :11:01.advantage from above the system. as far as those cards were
:11:01. > :11:06.concerned, there were four killings, you said that you are assured
:11:06. > :11:10.everyone that the events of that day, the 21st of January 2000 11,
:11:10. > :11:17.one of the things that you said was that there would be a public trial
:11:17. > :11:26.of the reader that would begin after the elections. Are you proposing to
:11:26. > :11:36.put him on trial? I am saying that this event cannot be forgotten. It
:11:36. > :11:37.
:11:37. > :11:47.cannot be judged in the old way. The old process was farcical. We will
:11:47. > :11:48.
:11:48. > :11:55.take all that we can as measures to provide real assistance for the
:11:55. > :12:05.families of the victims and provide should be independent. The courts
:12:05. > :12:06.
:12:06. > :12:10.have dealt with it. So there will be an appeal of the ruling? I think it
:12:10. > :12:20.is postponed at the moment. Despite what you said at the time and have
:12:20. > :12:21.
:12:21. > :12:26.said since, he will not be tried or put on trial in any for this?
:12:26. > :12:34.is not about what I think of what I want, it is about the justice system
:12:34. > :12:44.process. When I talk about him, I'd have said that he has all the
:12:44. > :12:47.
:12:47. > :12:52.responsibility in terms of moral and political responsibility. He is an
:12:52. > :13:02.out of government. The trial has two be done before the election? I have
:13:02. > :13:05.
:13:05. > :13:11.said that we will do everything that we can to have a process when the
:13:11. > :13:14.families are dealt with properly. Let's move on to corruption. It is
:13:14. > :13:21.one of the biggest concerns from the European Union and about many
:13:21. > :13:28.Albanians. One of the things that you are no -- that you're no college
:13:28. > :13:33.said about you was that you had created a big laundry to clean dirty
:13:33. > :13:41.money. How clean your hands in this system that you say makes everyone
:13:41. > :13:51.corrupt? We live in a civilisation in which it is the accusatory is
:13:51. > :13:54.
:13:54. > :14:00.that have to prove the accused, not the other way round, very simply, I
:14:00. > :14:05.say that we have left for a long time -- lived for a long time in the
:14:05. > :14:12.political process that has been mostly about allegations, the trend
:14:12. > :14:20.of old politics but I want to leave behind. The people of Albania want
:14:20. > :14:30.to leave it behind. But it goes... You said... The elections have been
:14:30. > :14:33.
:14:33. > :14:40.approved. Let's talk about the way of life in Albania. The people have
:14:41. > :14:47.chosen the alternative of leading obverse behind. You say it is down
:14:47. > :14:52.to the system. If you put an Albanian civil servant in Germany
:14:52. > :15:02.because they -- they would not be corrupt but if you put Germans in
:15:02. > :15:03.
:15:03. > :15:12.people, it is the system. It is a system you are in. Are you corrupt?
:15:12. > :15:22.It is something else I am saying. I have proven it by leading for 11
:15:22. > :15:26.
:15:26. > :15:30.years. By modernising the structure, you can table corruption. I hope all
:15:30. > :15:39.of the recognition I have got internationally has proved this has
:15:39. > :15:48.worked. We talked about transparency International. Albania flipped --
:15:48. > :15:56.slipped 213. It is an evaluation of the governments. I have never been
:15:56. > :16:05.in government. People have to pay. It is not just doctors. Throughout
:16:05. > :16:10.the system... Explain. Everything you need to do and Albania, you have
:16:10. > :16:17.to pay money. There are important experiences from others that
:16:17. > :16:27.corruption is not God's punishment that were once it -- forever. It is
:16:27. > :16:27.
:16:27. > :16:33.something that can be defeated. For example, we have a big problem. It
:16:33. > :16:41.is in the management of customs. And tax collection. There is a lot of
:16:41. > :16:50.corruption. That is why we are working hard to set up a new
:16:50. > :16:53.procedure and get help from international organisations. For
:16:53. > :16:57.example, the British organisation that has made success stories in
:16:57. > :17:04.that has made success stories in Bulgaria, Ukraine, Macedonia and
:17:04. > :17:14.others. Transforming the very corrupt Bulgarian customs, at that
:17:14. > :17:16.
:17:16. > :17:21.time. Customs now? In Albania? How is it now? It is corrupt. You are
:17:21. > :17:27.asking what I will do. Agave an example. I can give you many
:17:27. > :17:34.examples. We have to find a way to make reforms in the healthcare
:17:34. > :17:39.system that will transform the system from a broken one. There are
:17:39. > :17:47.analysts talking about what you have to do. You have to go in and purged
:17:47. > :17:55.the civil service. Get rid of all those people who have senior levels.
:17:55. > :18:03.The place. We have a wholesale clear up of people within the government
:18:03. > :18:09.and the Administration of Albania? Member. We do not need to do this.
:18:09. > :18:17.-- no. We have frontal people in the system. We need to transform the
:18:17. > :18:23.system. We have to follow success stories abroad. There are many
:18:23. > :18:28.success stories. Even in very difficult situations. Much more
:18:28. > :18:37.difficult in Albania. It shows that corruption is to fit a bull. And we
:18:37. > :18:44.will defeat corruption. We need very deep reforms and a very strong will.
:18:44. > :18:54.We have heard. We have the platform for reforms. You have a broken
:18:54. > :19:00.
:19:00. > :19:01.many countries that are in problems. The finances are in such
:19:01. > :19:11.problems. The finances are in such aid poor st?I ? aid poor sto go
:19:11. > :19:14.
:19:14. > :19:21.to the IMF. Will you? We are waiting for a special programme of IMF and
:19:21. > :19:30.World Bank assessors. They will assess the stability of our
:19:30. > :19:37.financial sector. Hopefully, this programme will end before we come up
:19:37. > :19:41.with the new budget. It is the kind of programme that will give you the
:19:41. > :19:51.reality of the financial sector and suggestions. We will discuss the
:19:51. > :19:54.
:19:54. > :19:58.opportunities. What they have talked about, you're ambitious programme,
:19:58. > :20:05.there is no fiscal room for major investments. The scale of the things
:20:05. > :20:08.you are talking about, creating new jobs, scrapping the flat rate 10%
:20:08. > :20:13.income tax and introducing progressive rates, which will mean
:20:13. > :20:19.95% of working people are better off. It is difficult to see how you
:20:19. > :20:29.can afford that. That is why I was elected. To do difficult things.
:20:29. > :20:34.
:20:34. > :20:44.is difficult but not impossible. We need to defeat corruption.
:20:44. > :20:49.
:20:49. > :20:59.off a fair amount of money. Bringing in 50% of it will give artists a
:20:59. > :21:06.
:21:06. > :21:12.fair amount of money. Will give our smart. That is a very neutral
:21:12. > :21:19.translation. When we talk about free healthcare, I have in mind that the
:21:19. > :21:29.NHS. The NHS is not cheap. A safely for the people, not the State.
:21:29. > :21:30.
:21:30. > :21:37.does not exist. We have a system in Albania which is practically broken.
:21:37. > :21:40.That is based on health insurance. As a matter of fact, we have a very
:21:40. > :21:47.large amount of people out of the system because they cannot pay the
:21:47. > :21:54.insurance. These are things that cost money. USA it is going to come
:21:54. > :22:04.from cleaning up corruption. It is one of the ways to answer your
:22:04. > :22:05.
:22:05. > :22:12.question. Of course we have two create... It means a better
:22:12. > :22:20.environment?I ? environmentaving more investments and more revenue.
:22:20. > :22:26.We are not elected to invent the wheel. The bill has been invented.
:22:27. > :22:32.We have to follow the track of advised by about five to ten's
:22:32. > :22:42.former Prime Minister? -- being advertised by Britain's former Prime
:22:42. > :22:49.
:22:49. > :22:57.Minister. We understand seemed how he can us. We are going forward
:22:57. > :23:03.-based ensemble territories. Do not lose focus and get reforms done.
:23:03. > :23:13.it will turn Albania into what? What should be the perception of Albania?
:23:13. > :23:16.
:23:16. > :23:23.Nice. Normal. Very attractive. A small but functioning country. This
:23:23. > :23:28.is absolutely possible. We don't have a functioning state but we have
:23:28. > :23:35.people who have shown that when they are put in the condition to work,
:23:35. > :23:42.they will. As they do here, in Italy, in Greece. They are the same