:00:09. > :00:16.summer break. Now on BBC News, it is time for HARDtalk. Welcome to
:00:16. > :00:19.HARDtalk. The Iraqi Foreign Minister is here on a visit to London. He
:00:19. > :00:25.said he wanted to rehabilitate Iraq's image after the fall of
:00:25. > :00:27.Saddam Hussein. But now sectarian violence in Iraq is arguably worse
:00:27. > :00:33.than ever before and is overlapping with sectarianism in neighbouring
:00:33. > :00:40.Syria. The Shia led government in Baghdad is accused of discriminating
:00:40. > :00:50.against the Sunni minority and of being too close to Iran. Is Iraq in
:00:50. > :01:06.
:01:06. > :01:12.danger of once again collapsing into Most delighted to be with you.
:01:12. > :01:18.you. How worried are you that Iraq may return to civil war? There has
:01:18. > :01:22.been many speculations in the media. This is from people who have not
:01:22. > :01:25.visited the country. They are jumping to these conclusions. Being
:01:25. > :01:34.the Minister for the last ten years, the longest serving civil servants
:01:34. > :01:41.in the country, I do not see Iraq sliding into civil war. Or even
:01:41. > :01:46.sectarian war. Really? Have the British government raised any
:01:46. > :01:55.concerns? They have. Iraq is facing some major security, political,
:01:55. > :02:05.regional challenges. But the country is not going into civil war or
:02:05. > :02:08.
:02:08. > :02:15.sectarian war. Really? April and May saw 2,500 people killed. You can get
:02:15. > :02:17.blown up anywhere. I agree with you. Recently, there has been an increase
:02:17. > :02:21.of violence and the number of innocent casualties by terrorist
:02:21. > :02:27.groups. This is partly due to the failure of our security service to
:02:27. > :02:37.provide better security for the citizens. But partly also because of
:02:37. > :02:39.
:02:39. > :02:44.the spillover from Syria into Iraq. The continuous crisis in Syria.
:02:44. > :02:49.are acknowledging there is a problem but it is not sectarian violence?
:02:49. > :02:55.There are those who dispute it. It is not just commentators. There is
:02:55. > :03:00.also the UN human rights chief, Francesco Motta. This is what he
:03:00. > :03:07.told us. "The sectarian viciousness of the attacks are worse than the
:03:07. > :03:13.2006 and 2007 civil war. It is becoming more sectarian. People are
:03:13. > :03:18.being targeted as they leave their places of worship." I disagree with
:03:18. > :03:25.the UN official. There has been an increase in the numbers, and there
:03:25. > :03:31.has been tension between Sunnis, Kurds, Shias. But no-one is pushing
:03:31. > :03:34.the envelope. No one is pushing things to a confrontation. The Sunni
:03:34. > :03:42.people have been part of a demonstration but it has not led to
:03:42. > :03:47.an open conflict. When he says is Iran is on the cusp of a civil
:03:47. > :03:57.war... Have you spoken to him? will speak with him when I go back
:03:57. > :03:58.
:03:58. > :04:08.to Baghdad. I will give him our point of view. Nevertheless, we
:04:08. > :04:11.
:04:11. > :04:14.disagree with that assessment. In Iraq, there are many tribes. The
:04:14. > :04:24.Iraqi have tested the scourges of sectarian and civil war in 2005 and
:04:24. > :04:26.
:04:26. > :04:36.2007. There is a self restraint by the politicians, the religious
:04:36. > :04:37.
:04:37. > :04:40.leaders... They are discouraging violence. That is why there are a
:04:40. > :04:49.number of restraints. Economically, the country, this has not been
:04:49. > :04:52.reported, has been doing very well. Iraq is the world's third biggest
:04:52. > :05:02.oil producer but they cannot buy electricity for a vast number of the
:05:02. > :05:10.
:05:11. > :05:18.population. You say that you see it as a problem of the extremists.
:05:18. > :05:28.There are accusations that Sunni sheiks are shielding some militants.
:05:28. > :05:33.
:05:33. > :05:39.There is a danger they may take up arms on those who attack them.
:05:39. > :05:43.production of electricity has been increased. Just to answer that. I
:05:43. > :05:53.agree with you. The Sunni people have grievances... About being
:05:53. > :06:06.
:06:06. > :06:12.marginalised. The Ba'ath Party was the party of Saddam Hussein. He was
:06:12. > :06:19.a Sunni. He favoured the Sunni people. This is happening in Libya,
:06:19. > :06:25.this is happening in Tunisia, even in Egypt. It is not something new.
:06:25. > :06:27.That law has been revised. The good thing about Iraq is that Iraq has
:06:27. > :06:37.established a legal constitutional framework for addressing its
:06:37. > :06:38.
:06:38. > :06:43.problems. It is through dialogue, and not through conflict. It is a
:06:43. > :06:51.positive thing. Do you think so? The president sounds like he is going
:06:51. > :06:56.for a military solution. He is not gone for a military solution. He is
:06:56. > :07:03.always trying to find accommodation. The recent local election was an
:07:03. > :07:09.indication of the viability of the political system. Both the Sunnis
:07:09. > :07:17.and Shias participated. We have a general election next year, people
:07:17. > :07:21.are anticipating that they can change their government. We do not
:07:21. > :07:31.doubt there is a process going on. Iraq has 60% Arab Shia, 20% Arab
:07:31. > :07:36.
:07:36. > :07:45.Sunni, and Kurds, 20%. It is a rich mosaic. The Sunni people feel
:07:45. > :07:55.marginalised. Samia Nakhoul wrote an extensive piece. She says many
:07:55. > :08:05.Iraqis only have one hope... That is to leave the country. There are
:08:05. > :08:05.
:08:05. > :08:11.grievances. They need to be addressed. The government is fully
:08:11. > :08:21.aware of those grievances. There is an ongoing dialogue between the
:08:21. > :08:30.government, the Shias, the Sunnis. The Sunni people have been in
:08:30. > :08:33.demonstrations. Thousands out on the streets. They say they are fed up
:08:33. > :08:41.with second-class status. Neither the government nor they have
:08:41. > :08:47.resorted to escalating the tension. We have talked about the Sunni
:08:47. > :08:57.people. What about the Shia people? They have also been subjected to
:08:57. > :08:59.
:08:59. > :09:02.horrific attacks. We hear regular occurrences of bombings. Again,
:09:02. > :09:07.there is the fear that Shia militias, as they were involved in
:09:07. > :09:12.the civil war, may come out again if they see themselves under attack.
:09:12. > :09:22.Are you concerned about that? formed a militia to defend
:09:22. > :09:27.themselves. We have a golden rule in Iraq, since 2003 onwards. Whenever
:09:27. > :09:29.we have political unity, we have better security. When we have
:09:29. > :09:38.political divisions amongst ourselves as politicians, it is
:09:38. > :09:45.reflected negatively on the security. Here is Iraq's dilemma. It
:09:45. > :09:51.has to find the balance between the two. We have a genuine political
:09:51. > :09:57.government which is inclusive. It has to be an inclusive government in
:09:57. > :10:07.Iraq. Since Iraq is in a transitional period, as a society,
:10:07. > :10:15.
:10:15. > :10:24.there are diehard groups like Al Qaeda, Asa'ib Ahl al-Haq. You are
:10:24. > :10:29.dismissing them. You say we have major concerns, we are ready for it
:10:29. > :10:34.and we are ready to protect our people. What is going on now is what
:10:34. > :10:44.led to the violence in 2006. mainstream Shia religious
:10:44. > :10:44.
:10:45. > :10:52.establishments... The political leaders are not encouraging this.
:10:52. > :10:59.These are minorities. They could destabilise the country. They could
:10:59. > :11:09.not ignite... You do not think so? do not think so. Al Qaeda has tried
:11:09. > :11:14.
:11:14. > :11:21.all these years to ignite a war. This is the aim. I want to ask you,
:11:21. > :11:28.you also have the conflict in Syria. It is sectarian. You have the
:11:28. > :11:38.Alawite Shia minority in power. We hear reports that Iraqis from the
:11:38. > :11:40.
:11:40. > :11:50.Shia and Sunni communities are going to fight. Unfortunately, Syria has
:11:50. > :11:51.
:11:51. > :11:59.become a battleground for jihadists. Iraq fears this will turn into a
:11:59. > :12:02.sectarian dimension. The intervention of Hezbollah recently,
:12:03. > :12:08.the call for Jihad by the Sunni clerics, the response by some Shia
:12:08. > :12:18.militia also. But none of this, from the Iraqi government point of view,
:12:18. > :12:22.
:12:22. > :12:27.means it is supported or sanctioned by the government. They are not
:12:27. > :12:36.supported all encouraged by the government. We are for a political
:12:36. > :12:40.solution. We are for the respect of the Syrian people. Are you neutral?
:12:40. > :12:44.We are. We are like Geneva. You say you are neutral. The Transport
:12:44. > :12:51.Minister has said about Iraqi Shia, he is a Shia, that they go to
:12:51. > :12:54.Baghdad via Beirut. He says, do you want us to sit idly by when the Shia
:12:54. > :13:03.are being attacked, while the Americans and the rest are helping
:13:03. > :13:09.the Sunni people with weapons and money? What do you expect? He says.
:13:09. > :13:19.Why would he make that statement? you read the entire statement, he is
:13:19. > :13:33.
:13:34. > :13:38.not for it. The leader of Al Qaeda? When they call for the Sunni people
:13:38. > :13:42.to go for Jihad, there would be a response from the Shia. They are
:13:42. > :13:44.sanctioned as a response by the Iraqi government to go to Syria?
:13:44. > :13:51.government does not encourage or support or sanction... That is
:13:51. > :13:58.encouragement. No. I am not aware of any groups or Iraqis who have gone
:13:58. > :14:01.with the support of the government. When the special envoy to Iraq
:14:01. > :14:11.briefed the UN Security Council in July, he said the escalating
:14:11. > :14:11.
:14:11. > :14:17.violence in Iraq cannot be separated from the conflict in Syria. What do
:14:17. > :14:23.you think of the consequences? is the country that will be most
:14:23. > :14:29.affected by the continuation of the Syria conflict. Both geographically,
:14:29. > :14:38.socially. And geopolitically. That is why we are watching with great
:14:38. > :14:48.concern. With a lack of international community or Security
:14:48. > :14:51.
:14:51. > :14:58.Council action, this conflict is going to continue for some time.
:14:58. > :15:07.think the move by the European Union to label has belies a terrorist
:15:07. > :15:16.organisation will help that? -- Hezbollah. This has been discussed
:15:16. > :15:25.and debated for some time. This will lead to some reaction. You think it
:15:25. > :15:32.is negative? No. This is a decision for a Europe. They have better
:15:32. > :15:38.intelligence to designate who commit terrorism. Especially in Europe.
:15:38. > :15:48.That is something else. But generally, this will lead to certain
:15:48. > :15:53.
:15:53. > :16:03.groups to escalate things. As a response. Escalate in what way?
:16:03. > :16:04.
:16:04. > :16:12.Hezbollah is pro- Iran. The Prime Minister of Iraq is labelled as to
:16:13. > :16:18.pro- Iran. He goes to Iran regularly. How wise is that? How
:16:18. > :16:28.wise is that? Now there is support. Iran has influence in Iraq. He is
:16:28. > :16:36.
:16:36. > :16:46.not Iran's man. Really? Can you say that? I can say that confidently. He
:16:46. > :16:51.
:16:51. > :16:54.is not Iran's man. What do you say to the senior Shia politicians? Can
:16:54. > :16:56.I tell you what he says? People might not know. He leads the
:16:56. > :17:04.coalition in Parliament. He says that they control the political
:17:04. > :17:12.decisions. Not to that extent. They do have influence with most of the
:17:12. > :17:22.Iraqi political leaders and the government. The current Iraqi
:17:22. > :17:24.
:17:24. > :17:34.government is independent. It follows its own national interest.
:17:34. > :17:35.
:17:35. > :17:39.It wants to build good relations with Iran. Can I just pick you up?
:17:39. > :17:42.You are foreign policy chief for Iraq. You know that Iran has been
:17:42. > :17:50.transferring weapons to the Assad government in Damascus through Iraqi
:17:50. > :18:00.airspace. You know the US Secretary of State said in March that Iran
:18:00. > :18:07.were helping to sustain Bashar al-Asssad and the regime. It does
:18:07. > :18:13.not sound like you are vetoing what Iran is doing. This has been going
:18:13. > :18:23.on for some time. Let's be honest about it. It is for the use of Iraqi
:18:23. > :18:33.air space. We have taken note of American and European concerns. We
:18:33. > :18:39.
:18:39. > :18:43.have conducted a number of searches. We did not find lethal material.
:18:44. > :18:46.can't you stop the weapons going? We have told them that we don't want
:18:46. > :18:49.them to use their good relations with us to embarrass us.
:18:50. > :18:59.Technically, in terms of the Iraqi air force, the defence, Iraq is not
:19:00. > :19:06.
:19:06. > :19:15.capable of stopping this. Even to stop what happened in March,
:19:15. > :19:18.tactically we do not have that technology. The Iraqi ambassador in
:19:18. > :19:28.Washington told Congress what you just said, that the air defences are
:19:28. > :19:30.
:19:30. > :19:37.too big and not integrated. Do you want this? If you had those, for the
:19:37. > :19:43.sake of argument, would you use them against the Iranian planes? We did
:19:43. > :19:53.protect our sovereignty against any intrusion. We will deny anybody the
:19:53. > :19:55.
:19:55. > :20:04.use of our air space. You would like to have that? We are seeking to buy
:20:04. > :20:07.them from the United States. We want to boost our defences. You are an
:20:07. > :20:10.Iraqi Kurd and you know the government have been quoted as
:20:10. > :20:20.saying in the past that if Iraq got the F-16s, they would be worried
:20:20. > :20:25.that Baghdad might use them against the Kurds in the future. If the
:20:25. > :20:35.Kurds are part of the decision-making, there is no way.
:20:35. > :20:38.
:20:38. > :20:42.That is the source of the worry. Otherwise, nobody would object.
:20:42. > :20:45.this an example to show yet again that the tensions between the Sunnis
:20:45. > :20:48.and the Shias and the Kurds and the regional government and Baghdad, in
:20:48. > :20:55.the old days, after the invasion, we spoke about the break-up of Iraq, is
:20:55. > :21:05.that back on the agenda? So far nobody is embracing the idea of
:21:05. > :21:09.
:21:09. > :21:19.dividing the country. Everybody is benefiting from the wealth of Iraq.
:21:19. > :21:20.
:21:20. > :21:30.130 billion a year. On the increase. With the political system, this idea
:21:30. > :21:37.
:21:37. > :21:43.has not been popular, to be honest with you. The federal system is
:21:43. > :21:49.constitutionally ratified. Recently, the tension between the Kurds and
:21:49. > :21:59.the government... Over the disputes with the troops? Nothing has
:21:59. > :22:05.
:22:05. > :22:13.happened. There was a cabinet meeting. He went to Baghdad. They
:22:13. > :22:18.were able to resolve this. When you had your constitution in 2005, the
:22:18. > :22:28.Arabs in Iraq boycotted the system. They are looking at what you have in
:22:28. > :22:38.the north. They will want something as autonomous as that. That idea has
:22:38. > :22:38.
:22:38. > :22:43.been floated to create a region for the Sydney provinces. -- Sunni
:22:43. > :22:47.provinces. There is a way for them if they want to do that. They could
:22:47. > :22:56.follow constitutional steps to get to that. You have been Foreign
:22:56. > :22:59.Minister for ten years. You said he would represent the people of Iraq,
:22:59. > :23:03.not just one ethnic group. Can you say that dream has not unravelled?
:23:03. > :23:08.When you look at that on a regular basis. I am supporting what the
:23:08. > :23:16.constitution says about Iraq. It is a federal democratic country. That
:23:16. > :23:23.is our philosophy. Iraq is free of sanctions, international sanctions.
:23:23. > :23:27.In that sense, no, the foreign policy of Iraq is not ready.
:23:27. > :23:33.said you wanted to rehabilitate the image of Iraq after the fall of
:23:33. > :23:37.Saddam Hussein. Look at the way that Iraq is seen today. You have seen
:23:37. > :23:40.that the violence, the national co- existence is threatened. There is
:23:40. > :23:48.sectarianism in neighbouring Syria which is arguably abetting what is
:23:48. > :23:52.going on in Iraq. You can't say you have succeeded. We have not
:23:52. > :23:59.succeeded. We must do a better job in leaving behind the headlines and
:23:59. > :24:03.the TV images about the country. If you look at the image of the whole
:24:03. > :24:13.region, it has changed. The Arab world has changed from North Africa
:24:13. > :24:18.