:00:16. > :00:20.time for some HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk. I am Sarah
:00:20. > :00:27.Montague. Pariah is one of the least watched artforms in the world and
:00:27. > :00:30.possibly one of the most expensive. -- paparazzo. My guest today is an
:00:30. > :00:33.opera superstar, Thomas Hampson. He says that the way to get people to
:00:33. > :00:36.love it is too will get them to watch it and then it has the power
:00:36. > :00:39.to transform. I guest today is an opera superstar, Thomas Hampson. He
:00:39. > :00:42.says that the way to get people to love it is too will get them to
:00:42. > :00:44.watch it and then it has the power to transform. Is he right? Can one
:00:44. > :00:54.of the most elite and extensive artforms have worldwide appeal? --
:00:54. > :01:01.
:01:01. > :01:04.Thomas Hampson, welcome to HARDtalk. Hello. It is hard to see opera as
:01:04. > :01:10.anything but elite. He said that it should appeal to all walks of life?
:01:10. > :01:16.Would you say that now? Without question or reservation. I am
:01:16. > :01:20.talking about, talk about opera is where it comes from, the stories? .
:01:20. > :01:23.There is no pariah. We cannot talk about opera. Are different
:01:24. > :01:29.generations, languages, countries. The opera always has in common that
:01:29. > :01:33.they come from historical perspectives and they come from a
:01:33. > :01:40.deep desire to tell a story about how people interacted with
:01:40. > :01:45.themselves. Some of the confusion about pariah the art form comes from
:01:45. > :01:49.that we have way too much emphasis on plot, too much of a comparison to
:01:50. > :01:54.theatre or television or sitcoms. Opera gets misunderstood because it
:01:54. > :02:01.is at the laboratory of dilemmas, of people. That can only be relevant
:02:01. > :02:07.always. At the moment, the only people really watching opera are the
:02:07. > :02:11.richest, most well educated in the world. It is a tiny percentage of
:02:11. > :02:16.the world which sees opera and perhaps understand it. Think this is
:02:16. > :02:22.HARDtalk, get to push back. I am not sure that is entirely true. The
:02:22. > :02:26.demographic -- demographics of an Opera audience are extraordinary. We
:02:26. > :02:30.have a wide audience across the world. We are sitting in England, I
:02:30. > :02:36.am an American, it is a European artforms and so on. We have to talk
:02:36. > :02:42.a global perspective. There is a very large and very wide demographic
:02:42. > :02:47.of the opera audience. There are more opera performances to date and
:02:47. > :02:51.there were 25 years ago in sheer numbers. That is an expensive art
:02:51. > :02:54.form is no question. Productions have gotten more expensive. The
:02:55. > :02:59.institutions of opera houses especially European opera houses
:02:59. > :03:03.where there are fixed social costs of running an institution that that
:03:03. > :03:09.is a real problem and we have to get to it, no question. That it is only
:03:09. > :03:13.prices are so expensive? I have been impressed with a lot of major houses
:03:14. > :03:20.including the Metropolitan who had very innovative ticket restriction
:03:20. > :03:26.programmes. We know a few years ago in the US that you may argue that
:03:27. > :03:30.the West has it wrong that China and other countries have it right dash
:03:30. > :03:33.of the National endowment of the arts had a survey that 2% went to
:03:33. > :03:40.the opera in the year with the lowest level of all in arts
:03:40. > :03:44.activities. Just under 0.5% had their
:03:44. > :03:50.their family going to watch them perform. Similar figures in the UK
:03:50. > :03:57.arts Council. Of those who go to arts presents -- events, 72% had not
:03:57. > :04:03.gone to an operator that. That is astounding to me. -- opera event.
:04:03. > :04:07.Even the casual entrant events are so limited. I am not saying that it
:04:07. > :04:12.is a ubiquitous art form. That would be ubiquitous -- ridiculous to
:04:12. > :04:17.maintain. An saying that the numbers who are still interested and
:04:17. > :04:20.supportive are very lively. It is not just relegated to people with
:04:20. > :04:24.more money than others. There is a demographic that I think we can
:04:24. > :04:29.celebrate and focus upon. (CROSSTALK). How do you get beyond
:04:29. > :04:35.that? You say that it made the more than people realise that it is still
:04:35. > :04:41.tiny and redundantly older people. 2% of 300 million is not too bad.
:04:41. > :04:47.They will see the relevance. How do you reach out? How do you get beyond
:04:48. > :04:52.that? You say that it is relevant and has the power to transform their
:04:52. > :04:57.lives are so how do you reach them? That is the question I would like to
:04:57. > :05:00.focus on. That is what we would love to talk to people about, to enthuse
:05:00. > :05:06.them to this magnificent art form which is as strange as it is
:05:06. > :05:12.wondrous. It is his Doric lead based. There is cut -- some concept
:05:12. > :05:15.that has to do with how we are as people. -- context. The late 19th
:05:15. > :05:25.century is much a dialogue of morality and puritanism as we have
:05:25. > :05:30.
:05:30. > :05:34.today. -- historically based. (CROSSTALK). You were talking about
:05:34. > :05:43.something that was written, 1857 was the first premiere of its? That is
:05:43. > :05:49.around the corner. 1357 was the character. He was a course out. The
:05:49. > :05:53.reason it is important because the historical context does not mean
:05:53. > :05:57.that it is just a precise lifting from history -- corsair. The
:05:57. > :06:05.character is a mixture of his brother as well as in himself. The
:06:05. > :06:12.character of this first anointed, democratic, elected, feudal ruler
:06:12. > :06:20.whose passion is to find at least a not an actual friendship with
:06:20. > :06:28.enemies. It is very powerful. not accept that it is hard to get
:06:28. > :06:36.to? You say that it is a great story but then you add layers of classical
:06:36. > :06:39.music, in another language, and it seems so remote. Those who
:06:39. > :06:43.understand it would say that it is the most amazing thing. The rest of
:06:43. > :06:52.the world looks on and thinks dash it is meaningless to me. That is
:06:52. > :06:57.wonderful. Is that not the power of this artform? Your perspective and
:06:57. > :07:01.part of our preoccupation today is about globalisation and knowing how
:07:01. > :07:05.different we are across the globe. What seems to be happening is that
:07:05. > :07:11.with all the benefits of these widening perspective to the world,
:07:11. > :07:14.varies in fact a kind of tribal that is coming in. -- there is. There is
:07:14. > :07:20.a fear or reticence to understand something else or someone else's
:07:20. > :07:26.perspective. You mention an art form or another timeframe, another
:07:26. > :07:30.language... There are hundreds of thousands of different languages.
:07:30. > :07:36.The arts and humanities and performing arts are at precisely the
:07:36. > :07:39.place to ameliorate this sense of other. This sense of not knowing
:07:39. > :07:43.what -- not wanting to know about that. If we are not curious about
:07:43. > :07:50.one another and if we do not want to understand other cultures and
:07:50. > :07:55.of the human story that literally becomes so -- showed it through
:07:55. > :07:59.different presence of history... People are scared of globalisation,
:07:59. > :08:03.scared of what they see, the Other from the other side of the world?
:08:03. > :08:09.People are being scared of being grouped into something they are not.
:08:09. > :08:15.They are also being scared of - human nature says not to tell me of
:08:15. > :08:21.believe. There needs to be avenues so people can accept what they then
:08:21. > :08:24.no. That is a larger perspective. The arts and humanities are the
:08:24. > :08:30.cause towards the realisation of that narrative which is the
:08:30. > :08:34.performing arts, in my opinion. It is that wonderful laboratory, that
:08:34. > :08:43.place where you can learn to appreciate things which you have not
:08:43. > :08:46.known before. Classical music does not hurt. In fact, the only thing
:08:46. > :08:50.which seems to get caught up in this stigma of classical music is that
:08:50. > :08:54.there is something going on which we do not know. I will not go there
:08:54. > :09:00.because I d?I ? because I derstan have talked about informed
:09:00. > :09:06.performances. By both the performer and the audience. Take it from the
:09:06. > :09:09.audience's perspective - this is the idea that they have to do some
:09:09. > :09:16.homework before seeing this? That is what you mean? It is a better
:09:16. > :09:22.understanding? To better understand, to better appreciate - more
:09:22. > :09:28.familiarity. If I go to a museum or an exhibition of Renison 's
:09:28. > :09:30.paintings, I can be wondering at the close and wondering at the time
:09:30. > :09:37.and, that seems to be very interesting in terms of use of light
:09:37. > :09:40.and I wonder what that means - but I still love it. I have gone through
:09:40. > :09:45.this wonderful exhibition. I may get an audio guide or have somebody
:09:45. > :09:49.explain the iconography of what is going on there, what that will means
:09:49. > :09:53.or the use of architecture that it meant something very specific in a
:09:53. > :09:57.sociological sense. All the parts of the hidden language which then
:09:57. > :09:59.become the narrative. That is no different than in classical music.
:09:59. > :10:04.Classical music at a hard rap just because it is a more formalised or
:10:04. > :10:08.structured use of tone and harmony and melody does not make it any less
:10:08. > :10:14.relevant to our emotional impact of what we are hearing or why we are
:10:14. > :10:17.hearing it. Very often, in every opera did you go to, there will be
:10:17. > :10:23.an emotional journey in a musical language which you do not
:10:23. > :10:26.understand. That is good. You would not say to somebody to not go unless
:10:26. > :10:31.and what it is about. And yet you have said that Mozart should not
:10:31. > :10:39.be... I am not sure that any music should be in elevator is. My point
:10:39. > :10:49.is not to attack elevator music. Mozart has a place and it is not in
:10:49. > :10:54.irrelevance. We are bombarded with music all the time and we become in
:10:54. > :11:02.Europe to the language. Music has a language. You not being a little
:11:02. > :11:06.precious it? A making a simple point with Mozart and the elevator at this
:11:06. > :11:12.idea that music is best understood when you know from where it is
:11:12. > :11:16.coming or when you understand the iconography of what is going on?
:11:16. > :11:20.When you understand the context and the history? When you do that, it
:11:20. > :11:23.becomes precious. Surely good music is good music? I agree with you. I
:11:23. > :11:28.am not saying that classical music is better by any means. I do not
:11:28. > :11:34.like the word precious. I think that those adjectives are unnecessary.
:11:34. > :11:37.There is a context to classical music that implies form, imply a
:11:37. > :11:40.structure, implies an intent to express something with a specific
:11:40. > :11:46.musical language. That is not precious. That is a specific
:11:46. > :11:49.context. It can be very developed. I maintain that the impetus of a
:11:49. > :11:56.magnificent song, whether it is the Beatles or Mozart, comes from the
:11:56. > :12:02.same place of the heart. It comes from the same place of the heart and
:12:02. > :12:05.mind. This living thing said that I want to express what I feel, what I
:12:05. > :12:10.remember about being alive at this moment. The context of different
:12:10. > :12:15.kinds of music and historical perspectives are prisons. It is one
:12:15. > :12:20.river and many many globes. From a performance point of view, the
:12:20. > :12:24.performer also has to have been a cultural historian do have to
:12:24. > :12:28.understand guymac they cannot just be a good actor and a thing?
:12:28. > :12:33.shouldn't be enough. It can suffice but I think that informed
:12:33. > :12:37.performance both from the performer and the -- and invigorating the
:12:37. > :12:41.curiosity of the audience is a positive and wonderful thing.
:12:41. > :12:45.think that you should know from where the plot comes. It is not
:12:45. > :12:50.extraordinary to think in a language you do not speak nor is it
:12:50. > :12:57.particularly a natural. You did not like me using the word precious but
:12:57. > :13:03.is that one of the things they found with these surveys that people do
:13:03. > :13:06.not go to all listen to operate is that there a psychological barrier.
:13:06. > :13:10.The psychological barrier is that it is not for people like me. That is
:13:10. > :13:12.interesting. I would say that clearly we have a mandate in the
:13:12. > :13:16.classical community that fewer people next year should say that
:13:16. > :13:22.next year than this year. We cannot change the world and nor do I
:13:22. > :13:25.believe that all of different arts are going to be equally accessible
:13:25. > :13:29.or be massively accessible to everyone. I do not think that that
:13:29. > :13:34.is the point. I think that the democratic process is that they
:13:34. > :13:36.should be available to those who are curious. If you want to go to opera,
:13:36. > :13:42.issue should not be prohibited from going to go whether it is because a
:13:42. > :13:50.social group from which you do not want to be a part or a ticket price
:13:50. > :13:53.you cannot afford. One possible way to do that is via the Internet?
:13:54. > :13:59.have - the foundation says the two had an website and your own at which
:13:59. > :14:04.you can download and see masterclasses? You were involved in
:14:04. > :14:11.the first live video streaming of classical music events on an Apple,
:14:11. > :14:16.a masterclass. It was all about distant learning. I wonder - it is
:14:17. > :14:21.so much of opera and you will be on stage tonight - it is about live
:14:21. > :14:27.performance. What you can get a buyer a small computer screen - does
:14:27. > :14:31.it really...? With all my fascination of the technological
:14:31. > :14:35.world and all these wonderful programmes with which I had been
:14:35. > :14:38.involved in my career and the Internet and regulate all of that -
:14:38. > :14:45.it is wonderful but it is all about the live art form. There is nothing
:14:45. > :14:50.more exhilarating than being in the public, either in the opera or a
:14:50. > :14:52.concert hall - being there and adjusting acoustically and
:14:52. > :14:56.emotionally investing yourself or opening yourself or whatever it is.
:14:56. > :15:00.For me, there is nothing that replaces that. Everything that I
:15:00. > :15:07.think in the technological world that we can do to either capture a
:15:07. > :15:08.certain moment for some souvenir of that - that is one aspect. What I
:15:08. > :15:12.find more exciting about technological development and its
:15:12. > :15:16.link to distance learning is that we have the ability to turn these
:15:17. > :15:20.paradigms around. Rather than asked having something in the classical
:15:21. > :15:26.community - going to two people and saying look at this, we can build
:15:26. > :15:32.inroads that say - if you are curious, build your own access
:15:32. > :15:37.points and come and find more about the opera will put your big toe into
:15:37. > :15:47.the deep water parts to see if you like it. I think that programmes
:15:47. > :15:48.
:15:48. > :15:53.like spot a fight... The idea that you can go onto the Internet and the
:15:53. > :15:58.music that you did not know yesterday, or in preparation for a
:15:58. > :16:03.concert you may or may not want to go to. It is an extremely positive
:16:03. > :16:12.development. And it is not a problem if people are downloading stuff for
:16:12. > :16:18.free? Not in the least. We need to make money in a different way. There
:16:18. > :16:22.is no question in my mind that more music should be free. You have
:16:22. > :16:27.accessibility to listen to it. Nobody should have to pay to listen
:16:27. > :16:32.music. To own it, that is a different question. Those poor
:16:32. > :16:38.people that are dead, most of them have no rights. The Beatles have all
:16:38. > :16:44.the rights. These are different questions. I am not qualified to get
:16:44. > :16:53.into that. I am determined to participate in the new dialogue of
:16:53. > :17:00.accessibility and informing people what this artform is. And it is an
:17:00. > :17:09.ability to transform, by which you mean what? People underestimate how
:17:09. > :17:17.powerful the emotional and electoral involvement in an art form is. If
:17:17. > :17:23.you do not know musical language, you take this journey. Music
:17:24. > :17:32.invigorates a certain liveliness in your emotional reaction. If that is
:17:32. > :17:37.accompanied with a -- knowingly participating, so that you are
:17:37. > :17:45.engaging the brain and your heart in the same time, that is an exciting
:17:45. > :17:51.and transforming experience. The other thing is that the magic of an
:17:51. > :17:56.opera, just staying with an opera, when that happens in the theatre,
:17:56. > :18:02.and I have been fortunate to be part of that a couple of times, it is
:18:02. > :18:08.infinitely greater in its effect on the summation of its parts. There is
:18:08. > :18:17.not one thing you can control that says, that is going to give it.
:18:17. > :18:27.us look at what has changed. Is this because audiences just do not like
:18:27. > :18:28.
:18:28. > :18:38.the former model? Certainly as far as women are concerned. We know that
:18:38. > :18:44.the likes of some reform is were told that they were too fat. --
:18:44. > :18:51.performers. There is no question that our artform is under a great
:18:51. > :18:55.deal of physical pressure. -- visual. Producers are far more of
:18:55. > :19:02.fixated on the visual representation of the Opera that they are
:19:02. > :19:10.passionate about, against the musical necessity and singing. It
:19:10. > :19:19.can be beautifully given in bodies that are not as beautiful as others.
:19:19. > :19:26.I know I am being dodgy here, but I am not sure that the believability
:19:26. > :19:32.factor of an opera because one tenor is thinner than the other can or,
:19:32. > :19:39.but one understands it more, I do not think we need to put that as a
:19:39. > :19:43.focus. I do not think we need to concentrate on that. And yet the
:19:43. > :19:49.Opera movement thinks that. We are under a lot of pressure. It goes
:19:49. > :19:57.back to what I have said. We are under immense visual pressure, but
:19:57. > :20:03.also in the believability way. Believability is the dilemma.
:20:03. > :20:09.Whether it is a Treo or an ensemble or a solo, it is always an
:20:09. > :20:16.exploration of the human experience. Our opera singers under what
:20:16. > :20:20.pressure? We are under a new kind of pressure. Every generation is under
:20:20. > :20:26.some kind of pressure. One person you are working with at the Opera
:20:26. > :20:35.house, the music director, he said that the singers are weaker in their
:20:35. > :20:41.bodies or do not care. He is saying that this generation are cancelling
:20:41. > :20:49.(and centre. It was not a difficult production. -- left, right and
:20:49. > :20:59.centre. I understand what he was speaking about. There are is a valid
:20:59. > :21:02.
:21:02. > :21:09.reason for that. Any young singer is not another singer. The richer you
:21:09. > :21:14.have to go through to be treated as an established artist, that process
:21:14. > :21:22.is changing. It is under a lot of pressure from many different
:21:22. > :21:28.reasons. But the singers are under more pressure. There is an
:21:28. > :21:35.expectation from them and they possibility of them falling off the
:21:35. > :21:38.ladder. A bad patch. Six months of bad singing, you are a bad patch.
:21:38. > :21:48.Six months of bad singing, you are done dime. There could be reasons
:21:48. > :21:48.
:21:48. > :21:54.for it. Some. We stuck to -- need to get more refocused. I belong more to
:21:54. > :22:01.the previous forum of things. I would rather be dead than cancelled.
:22:01. > :22:06.That is a stupid thing to say, but cancelling, I could not think of it.
:22:06. > :22:12.That is something else. Does that mean I would sing when I am not up
:22:12. > :22:20.to my standard? There are two standards. There is a level that you
:22:20. > :22:28.cannot go under. But you have to trust that there is some give and
:22:28. > :22:34.take. It's very seldom reaches your own ideal, but it maintains a
:22:35. > :22:42.standard that you can respect. You have to, as a singer, trust that
:22:42. > :22:47.even if you feel like you have not given a good performance, you know
:22:47. > :22:53.that somebody in the audience has made a great deal of effort to come
:22:53. > :23:02.and see you. But at this stage in your life, does anyone come and
:23:02. > :23:12.say, you need to do better. Indirectly, sure. Do you get told
:23:12. > :23:13.
:23:13. > :23:18.off? Hold off? Not necessarily. It is much more subtle. It is a lively
:23:18. > :23:22.debate. Plenty of people do not want to hire me for some things that I
:23:22. > :23:29.think I am very good at. There are other people that I'm willing to
:23:29. > :23:35.give me risk and want to see me challenge myself. And for someone in
:23:35. > :23:40.your position that has been in Professor Long -- opera for so long,
:23:40. > :23:48.what I am wondering is that they are of when they will slip. Good for
:23:49. > :23:57.you. Now I am on the couch. There must be some ways to go up than they
:23:57. > :24:04.are down. One man gave a fantastic interview. He was the guy. He gave
:24:04. > :24:12.the interview and said that he had this fear that somebody is going to
:24:12. > :24:17.call. It is just not working out. I think all of us, anyone who spends
:24:17. > :24:22.her life in the public late, but certainly a performer, must carry