:00:06. > :00:16.people. -- raids in 76 cities. Now on BBC News it is time for
:00:16. > :00:28.
:00:28. > :00:35.HARDtalk is on the road in the far west of Alaska, America's frontier
:00:35. > :00:39.state. The fishing community here, big business, and the US federal
:00:39. > :00:44.government, all of them are locked in a bitter argument over
:00:44. > :00:49.environmental sustainability and resource exploitation. The waters
:00:49. > :00:54.off this coast contain one of the world 's great wild salmon
:00:55. > :01:00.fisheries. 100 miles over there is a plan to build one of the world 's
:01:00. > :01:10.biggest copper mines. Can those two forms of resource exploitation
:01:10. > :01:18.
:01:18. > :01:22.coexist? The answer may do much to Flying inland from Alaska's
:01:22. > :01:32.south-west coast and you see a tapestry of streams, lakes, and
:01:32. > :01:32.
:01:32. > :01:39.rugged hills. Why old and empty. But for how much longer? The rocker arm
:01:39. > :01:45.that contains huge deposits of copper, along with gold and other
:01:45. > :01:48.precious metals. The mining industry senses an historic opportunity. 11
:01:48. > :01:58.billion times of copper ore could soon be shovelled out of these
:01:58. > :02:02.hills. The only way into the main right now is by helicopter. When you
:02:02. > :02:07.are in the air like this you get a sense of just how remote this place
:02:07. > :02:13.is. They want to dig the big pit down bad, they also need to build a
:02:13. > :02:19.power station, and develop a road or rail link to the sea so that they
:02:19. > :02:29.can get the copper out. It is a vast undertaking and it will cost many
:02:29. > :02:30.
:02:30. > :02:36.billions of dollars. John is a mining boss who thinks big. When he
:02:36. > :02:42.scans this landscape he imagines a vast open pit mine, thousands of
:02:42. > :02:45.jobs, tens of billions of dollars profit. It is a world-class copper
:02:45. > :02:55.prospect. There is a significant gold find on
:02:55. > :02:56.
:02:56. > :03:02.top of it. We are looking at a mine that could last up to 100 years.
:03:02. > :03:07.The mining company, a joint-venture between Britain's Anglo-American and
:03:07. > :03:10.Canada's Northern Dynasty minerals, has already done extensive test
:03:10. > :03:18.drilling, not just to chart the mineral deposits, but also to figure
:03:18. > :03:23.out how and where to dump billions of tonnes of waste or tailings.
:03:24. > :03:28.There is a lot of waste. The waste is essentially dirt. People think of
:03:28. > :03:33.waste and they think it is toxic or poison.
:03:33. > :03:38.It is toxic do. You cannot allow it to enter the ecosystem.
:03:38. > :03:42.It does have to have long-term monitoring, there is no question
:03:42. > :03:46.about that. Mining companies did not used to do that. We will not only
:03:46. > :03:50.have to monitor but we will have to put up a large cash bond in the
:03:50. > :03:55.hundreds of millions of dollars, so that even if we are not here there
:03:55. > :04:00.is the capacity to continue the monitoring.
:04:00. > :04:06.This is where the headwaters from the proposed mine site and up,
:04:06. > :04:10.Bristol Bay. Every summer vast numbers of salmon swim through these
:04:10. > :04:15.waters from the Pacific Ocean, heading to the lakes and streams
:04:15. > :04:22.where their lives began. It is one of the richest fisheries on the
:04:23. > :04:27.planet. There is no other fishery quite like this anywhere in the
:04:27. > :04:33.world. There are hundreds of fishing boats down below me, all of them
:04:33. > :04:43.with their nets out pulling in thousands of wild salmon. 30 million
:04:43. > :04:46.salmon converge on these waters are just three or four weeks every year.
:04:46. > :04:53.Local Inuit fishermen are joined by a fleet of boats from Oregon and
:04:54. > :05:01.Washington state. On a good day, they can haul in 2 million salmon
:05:01. > :05:10.between them. The fishermen now fear the delicate balance between man and
:05:10. > :05:15.fish is threatened by the planned for a huge mine in their backyard.
:05:15. > :05:19.Robin Samuelson, welcome to HARDtalk. What is it about the
:05:19. > :05:25.Liberal mine project that has got you and so many people in this
:05:25. > :05:31.community so worked up? It is those tailing ponds that they
:05:31. > :05:36.are planning on constructing, two miles x six miles x 300 feet high.
:05:36. > :05:41.If one of those breaks we are history. Bristol Bay will no longer
:05:41. > :05:46.be Bristol Bay. We have a culture that has been dependent on salmon
:05:46. > :05:50.since God created salmon and man and we are not willing to risk it.
:05:50. > :05:54.Would your grandchildren rather be out in the cold and in all weathers
:05:54. > :06:00.fishing or would they rather have a well-paid job on a mine that will
:06:00. > :06:09.probably last for the next 75 to 100 years. If my grandchildren were here
:06:09. > :06:16.they would say they would rather be fishing. Salmon is a billion-dollar
:06:16. > :06:24.business in Bristol Bay. The ocean beauty canning and processing plants
:06:24. > :06:26.can handle tens of thousands of fish every day. These may be wild salmon,
:06:26. > :06:32.but it is extraordinary how industrialise this production
:06:32. > :06:38.process has become. There are 350 workers in its plans. They are
:06:38. > :06:47.producing salmon for the freezer, canned salmon as well, when all of
:06:47. > :06:56.these fish leave this factory they will be worth an awful lot of money.
:06:56. > :07:05.Salmon is the mainstay of the local economy. In all, roughly 14,000
:07:05. > :07:12.livelihoods depend on the Bristol Bay fishery. Salmon is at the heart
:07:12. > :07:18.of the history and the culture of the small riverside town. How else
:07:18. > :07:22.do we tell salmon apart? One way to tell them is the eyeball. This Inuit
:07:22. > :07:32.community leader runs a summer camp teaching local children how to gut
:07:32. > :07:33.
:07:33. > :07:42.and smoky fish. Subsistence fishing has been the cornerstone of
:07:42. > :07:45.indigenous light here for millennia. The vast majority of tribal
:07:45. > :07:55.organisations in the Bristol Bay region have now joined the campaign
:07:55. > :07:56.
:07:56. > :08:02.against the project. Kim Williams, welcome to HARDtalk. Tell me how
:08:02. > :08:06.important the fish are to your community and your culture. For us
:08:06. > :08:13.it is part of who we are. It is our identity as Alaskan native
:08:13. > :08:19.people. If we did not have it, I cannot imagine not having it.
:08:19. > :08:29.you not see the big picture. The mine could bring to this region
:08:29. > :08:29.
:08:29. > :11:27.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 178 seconds
:11:27. > :11:32.at unprecedented economic growth. project? I ?I ? project? I of th
:11:32. > :11:39.leaders getting caught up with the propaganda. They are not finding out
:11:39. > :11:47.more on their own. They say the same about you. That you are not doing a
:11:47. > :11:52.project. We are doing the best we can with the facts based on science,
:11:52. > :11:55.not based on fear mongering. Because of the presence of the mine project
:11:55. > :12:02.there is a danger that communities around here are being torn apart.
:12:02. > :12:05.How worried are you about that? communities that are close, there
:12:05. > :12:12.was no connection before with us either culturally or traditionally.
:12:12. > :12:16.We do not even know them. You make it sound that when it comes to this
:12:16. > :12:18.project it is every man, woman, and tried for themselves. If you can get
:12:19. > :12:25.some are gathered that it is great, and if you cut you will probably
:12:25. > :12:29.oppose it. Is it the way it has become? The way I see it, because we
:12:29. > :12:39.are so open-minded to business why are we such bad people? Because we
:12:39. > :12:44.want to survive why is that bad? Alaska is wilder and more
:12:44. > :12:53.untarnished than any other corner of the US. The State prides itself on
:12:53. > :13:01.its natural wonders. Aren't tainted waters, a magical wild salmon
:13:01. > :13:10.migration and dramatic intervention from fearsome predators. It all
:13:10. > :13:16.makes for a seductive image of an ecosystem in harmony. The headwaters
:13:16. > :13:19.of the Bristol Bay, filled with salmon every year are a key part of
:13:19. > :13:27.Alaska's wilderness story and one which the state can ill afford to
:13:27. > :13:34.taint. The likely impact of the proposed mine, on these waters and
:13:34. > :13:39.the fish, is now under scientific scrutiny. Daniel Schindler, welcome
:13:39. > :13:47.to HARDtalk. You have spent the best part of 17 years working on Aquatic
:13:47. > :13:53.Centre degree search in this Bristol Bay drainage area. How unique is
:13:53. > :13:59.this ecosystem? It is unique in a variety of ways.
:13:59. > :14:05.One is the sheer vastness of it. The landscape is still undeveloped from
:14:06. > :14:12.the perspective of hydro dams and the lack of hatcheries to produce
:14:12. > :14:16.each -- to produce fish. Those type of disturbances do not exist here
:14:16. > :14:21.and Bristol Bay. In terms of salmon, it is one of the most productive
:14:21. > :14:25.landscapes in the world. We are looking at the potential
:14:25. > :14:31.impact of a vast industrial project and they do not have a concrete
:14:31. > :14:35.plan, but we have a pretty clear idea of what the scale of Coppermine
:14:35. > :14:38.they are talking about would involve. Watched you believe the
:14:38. > :14:43.main challenges are for them to overcome to get the commissions for
:14:43. > :14:51.this to go ahead? We know the ways that we produce
:14:51. > :14:55.will have to be contained, for centuries is not millennia. We know
:14:55. > :14:59.that water moves freely across this landscape. There is a lot of
:14:59. > :15:05.precipitation here, rain and snow. We navy surface is covered in gravel
:15:05. > :15:14.which is why it salmon have been so productive, because there is lots of
:15:14. > :15:21.habitat. Those issues may contain a huge challenge. The company insist
:15:21. > :15:31.that the way they are going to manage it is going to ensure that
:15:31. > :15:40.
:15:40. > :15:47.waste does not end up in a drainage system. In a place that has extreme
:15:47. > :15:57.changes in climate, history has told us that waste of this scale is very
:15:57. > :16:02.
:16:02. > :16:09.difficult. Pebble mine has become the most controversial kind --
:16:09. > :16:15.controversial of its kind in Alaskan history. There is a fundamental
:16:15. > :16:23.clash of interest here. You want to exploit it. You also know that we
:16:23. > :16:29.sit right now in the watershed area of one of the most important, indeed
:16:29. > :16:35.unique, wild fisheries in the whole of the world. I don't know how much
:16:35. > :16:40.of a threat we are considering the size of the ecosystem. We are very
:16:40. > :16:50.small piece of that ecosystem. It is a very important to Sharia. If we
:16:50. > :16:54.
:16:54. > :17:01.can prove that we can coexist. -- very important fishery. You are part
:17:01. > :17:08.of a very big international conglomerate. There are shareholders
:17:08. > :17:16.want you to deliver them vast profits. Tens of billions of dollars
:17:16. > :17:25.to your backers. That is what this is about. Let's not mince words.
:17:25. > :17:34.Yes, but it is also about enhancing the environment. In the past, you
:17:34. > :17:38.can have example of example of how a mining companies have done that. It
:17:38. > :17:47.is not in the best interests of companies to do that because it cost
:17:47. > :17:55.money in the long run. One of the leading experts on mining in the
:17:55. > :18:05.US, she says, it frankly there is no such thing as a no risk a minor. To
:18:05. > :18:14.
:18:14. > :18:21.you accept that? -- do you except that? -- yes. Then why would you
:18:21. > :18:30.contemplate taking such risks in such a unique environment? This
:18:30. > :18:40.environment exists over a huge area. This watershed runs into the Bristol
:18:40. > :18:48.Bay area, which is one of the world 's greatest salmon areas. Period.
:18:48. > :18:55.Even if it all escapes, which is not possible, it would not destroy the
:18:55. > :19:04.fishery. It just wouldn't. Why do you think the overwhelming majority
:19:04. > :19:14.of people in this region are opposed to your mine plan? They have ears.
:19:14. > :19:15.
:19:15. > :19:17.And those fears are legitimate about what the mind might do. We have a
:19:17. > :19:22.very high responsibility to show people that were not going to do
:19:22. > :19:31.what they're afraid of. We'll would be able to do that? I don't know. --
:19:31. > :19:39.will we be able to? Give me a ballpark figure of how much that
:19:39. > :19:49.would be worth to your company. total in place value that people
:19:49. > :19:54.
:19:54. > :20:04.have talked about is in the 300 range. -- 300 to 500 billion dollar
:20:04. > :20:07.
:20:07. > :20:12.range. So you're talking at about a half $1 trillion? In order to build
:20:12. > :20:17.a mine in a place like this, you need a big resource. That's what
:20:17. > :20:27.gives you the opportunity spends the money you need to spend to protect
:20:27. > :20:31.
:20:31. > :20:39.the environment. Thank you for being on HARDtalk. Anchorage, Alaska's
:20:39. > :20:48.business hub. This city and the entire state has been built on
:20:48. > :20:52.resource exploitation. The mineral potential is vast. The State's laws
:20:52. > :21:02.and politicians have long been hugely sympathetic to the extraction
:21:02. > :21:12.
:21:12. > :21:21.industries. The State may not get the final say. If the Federal
:21:21. > :21:30.government about to pull the plug on the proposed mine? Dennis McLaren,
:21:30. > :21:40.welcome to HARDtalk. Simple question, yes or no. Do you believe
:21:40. > :21:47.it is possible to develop a mine of the size that Pebble is talking
:21:47. > :21:57.about without having a damaging impact on the fishery? We know with
:21:57. > :21:58.
:21:58. > :22:08.a certainty that this will have an impact. You mean damaging ones?Yes,
:22:08. > :22:09.
:22:09. > :22:12.damaging ones. Then your answer is no. The mining component will say
:22:12. > :22:22.that they can do mitigating projects that will compensate for the damage
:22:22. > :22:28.that is created. You say up to 80 miles of streams lost. These are
:22:28. > :22:36.real changes to the ecosystem. Why not be upfront with me and say, it's
:22:36. > :22:46.time to get real. This mind cannot go ahead without fundamentally
:22:46. > :22:52.
:22:52. > :22:59.compromising one of America's most unique ecosystems. -- this mine.
:22:59. > :23:08.have used that authority very sparingly over the past years.
:23:08. > :23:16.concrete plan been submitted? has been used. Overall, we use that
:23:16. > :23:22.authority very cautiously and very sparingly. This is one of the last,
:23:22. > :23:26.best places. We want to take a very considered look at whether it is
:23:26. > :23:34.appropriate to use that authority. Whether it is appropriate to wait
:23:34. > :23:42.for a final mining plan. We need to look at the science, make sure we
:23:42. > :23:50.understand. Look at the modern mining practices. And then decide
:23:51. > :23:58.what our next steps are. We have not made a decision is yet. It is
:23:58. > :24:06.technically your decision. I wonder, it is so big and so
:24:06. > :24:16.important, it would go to Washington? I don't know. It would
:24:16. > :24:23.go to the highest levels of EPA. Bristol Bay this year 's salmon run