0:00:00 > 0:00:03here is another chance to see Sarah Montague's HARDtalk interview
0:00:03 > 0:00:05with one of Britain's most celebrated composers,
0:00:05 > 0:00:13Sir John Tavener, filmed just months before his death in 2013.
0:00:13 > 0:00:14Welcome
0:00:14 > 0:00:18Welcome to
0:00:23 > 0:00:25HARDtalk.
0:00:25 > 0:00:25I'm Sarah Montague.
0:00:25 > 0:00:27Sir John Tavener composes music for God,
0:00:27 > 0:00:30even referring to it as a form of divine dictation.
0:00:30 > 0:00:33In doing so, he has become one of Britain's most
0:00:33 > 0:00:33celebrated living composers.
0:00:34 > 0:00:3640 years ago, his work was sometimes dismissed as bland,
0:00:36 > 0:00:37populist and new age.
0:00:37 > 0:00:39Since then, he has defied the critic
0:00:39 > 0:00:42The Protecting Veil was one of the biggest selling
0:00:42 > 0:00:47classical CDs ever.
0:00:47 > 0:00:50Many years ago, he had a heart attack which nearly killed him.
0:00:50 > 0:00:53Since then, everything has changed - his music, his outlook on life
0:00:53 > 0:00:54and his faith.
0:00:54 > 0:00:55What happened and how did he change?
0:01:08 > 0:01:10Sir John Tavener, welcome to HARDtal
0:01:10 > 0:01:17Thank you.
0:01:17 > 0:01:19What happened to your music after you nearly died?
0:01:19 > 0:01:20It nearly vanished altogether.
0:01:20 > 0:01:25Because I was taken ill in Switzerland.
0:01:25 > 0:01:27They didn't not know whether I was conscious,
0:01:27 > 0:01:29whether I was brain dead or not.
0:01:29 > 0:01:31My wife came over from England.
0:01:31 > 0:01:35She played me Mozart and I started conducting, like that.
0:01:35 > 0:01:38The doctors realised my brain was not dead.
0:01:38 > 0:01:39I did not become conscious after that.
0:01:40 > 0:01:42But they realised I reacted to Mozart's music.
0:01:42 > 0:01:44And then when I did become conscious, it seemed that
0:01:44 > 0:01:54I was so weak.
0:01:54 > 0:01:56I was in such a poor condition.
0:01:56 > 0:01:59It seemed that music had vanished fr
0:01:59 > 0:02:03I reacted to it if you played it but I didn't have any music
0:02:03 > 0:02:15in my head.
0:02:15 > 0:02:18It was extraordinary because all of my life I had music
0:02:18 > 0:02:19in the head.
0:02:19 > 0:02:20It seemed to vanish.
0:02:20 > 0:02:26And so did my so-called belief in Go
0:02:26 > 0:02:29Well, it did not vanish but it did not seem there anymore.
0:02:29 > 0:02:32Both the music and the belief in another dimension have
0:02:32 > 0:02:33always gone together.
0:02:33 > 0:02:35So, I had no music, no God, nothing.
0:02:35 > 0:02:37But I was contented in a sort of way
0:02:37 > 0:02:39To be just looked after by nurses.
0:02:39 > 0:02:41That's what it was like for two years.
0:02:41 > 0:02:43There was nothing sudden or dramatic that happened.
0:02:43 > 0:02:45Gradually, I started to hear music again,
0:02:45 > 0:02:47feeling a kind of spiritual interest.
0:02:47 > 0:02:55Because the interest had all gone.
0:02:55 > 0:02:57Then I started to read books.
0:02:57 > 0:03:00One of the most extraordinary things that happened to me was that
0:03:00 > 0:03:03during this period, I listened to a lot of late Beethoven.
0:03:03 > 0:03:05He never meant a great deal to me.
0:03:05 > 0:03:29After being ill, his music was just
0:03:29 > 0:03:31Both as a composer, it made my jaw drop.
0:03:31 > 0:03:33He had amazing technique and extraordinary talent.
0:03:33 > 0:03:35Also, it was a transcendent what of dealing with his suffering.
0:03:38 > 0:03:53How did it change your music?
0:03:53 > 0:03:56Did you find that you are writing different music as a result?
0:03:56 > 0:03:57Yes.
0:03:57 > 0:03:59The music was much more condensed and terse.
0:03:59 > 0:04:09I had written long pieces that lasted many hours.
0:04:09 > 0:04:12My interest in doing that, I had not the strength...
0:04:12 > 0:04:14I mean, it was both a physical and spiritual
0:04:14 > 0:04:22thing.
0:04:22 > 0:04:25I didn't have the strength, so the music became much more
0:04:25 > 0:04:25concentrated.
0:04:25 > 0:04:26I suppose more transparent.
0:04:26 > 0:04:28My attitude to religion was quite different.
0:04:28 > 0:04:30I had this very inspired kind of faith.
0:04:30 > 0:04:33But sometimes, my personal life wasn't as good as the faith might
0:04:34 > 0:04:49have implied.
0:04:49 > 0:04:53Since I have been ill, I have been much more caring for my
0:04:53 > 0:04:53children and wife.
0:04:53 > 0:04:56In a way, I've come to understand that suffering
0:04:56 > 0:05:07is part of existence.
0:05:07 > 0:05:11I don't want to be pious but I think God allows suffering of the most
0:05:11 > 0:05:14appalling to exist as part of the journey.
0:05:14 > 0:05:16You have had many illnesses in your life.
0:05:16 > 0:05:18You have Marfan syndrome, genetically acquired.
0:05:18 > 0:05:20It affects the connective tissue.
0:05:20 > 0:05:23But you talk about being grateful for some of the pain you had
0:05:23 > 0:05:24in your life.
0:05:24 > 0:05:25I think it keeps a certain humility and keeps one in touch
0:05:25 > 0:05:40with a childlike...
0:05:40 > 0:05:44..I'd almost go as far as to say with a feminine...
0:05:44 > 0:05:45Because one has a...
0:05:45 > 0:05:46It's hard to explain.
0:05:46 > 0:05:47How do I say?
0:05:47 > 0:05:50If you don't have this humility, you are likely to lose out
0:05:50 > 0:05:52on a childlike or feminine dimension.
0:05:52 > 0:05:55So much of modern art is masculine or aggressive and has no sense
0:05:55 > 0:05:57of the feminine or childlike.
0:05:57 > 0:06:00This certain sort of weakness, it is not exactly a weakness.
0:06:00 > 0:06:02It's a humility inside the notes.
0:06:02 > 0:06:06One does not see it in a lot of contemporary art.
0:06:06 > 0:06:10Right from Eliot Gardiner to someone like John Adams.
0:06:10 > 0:06:14Everything is very masculine and aggressive and very well done.
0:06:14 > 0:06:21It is like driving a Ferrari, a well-tuned Ferrari.
0:06:21 > 0:06:24I mean, that is a danger of contemporary art.
0:06:24 > 0:06:25It's still my slight problem with contemporary
0:06:25 > 0:06:27music, contemporary art.
0:06:27 > 0:06:29I feel that the sort of dimensions of Chopin
0:06:29 > 0:06:30and Schumann...
0:06:30 > 0:06:43Their music is full of the feminine
0:06:43 > 0:06:46Full of this wonderful outpouring, which you do get
0:06:46 > 0:06:49in contemporary art.
0:06:49 > 0:06:52For some reason, you can get it in painting or poetry.
0:06:52 > 0:06:55It is interesting what you mean by the feminine.
0:06:55 > 0:06:56You immediately talk about the childlike.
0:06:56 > 0:06:59Rhapsodic dimension.
0:06:59 > 0:07:03And masculine is what?
0:07:03 > 0:07:08It is hard-edged, intellectual, aggressive.
0:07:08 > 0:07:10For you, the pain, you talked about suffering
0:07:10 > 0:07:12as being a kind of ecstasy.
0:07:12 > 0:07:15Yes.
0:07:15 > 0:07:19What did you mean by that?
0:07:19 > 0:07:24It's the other side of feeling ecstatic.
0:07:24 > 0:07:29The pain...
0:07:29 > 0:07:36It's what the pain actually does.
0:07:36 > 0:07:39It produces a kind of ecstatic music
0:07:39 > 0:07:46of ecstasy from the music that is influenced by making love
0:07:46 > 0:07:48with my wife.
0:07:48 > 0:07:51That's a completely different type o or any feeling of
0:07:51 > 0:07:54God's presence, which is a different kind of ecstasy.
0:07:54 > 0:07:57I've come to realise that it's a part of God's plan,
0:07:57 > 0:07:59that one suffers.
0:07:59 > 0:08:02It's up to one, somehow, to transcend it and to produce
0:08:02 > 0:08:08a kind of ecstasy through the suffering.
0:08:08 > 0:08:11I don't think to write about the suffering per se
0:08:11 > 0:08:15on its own without the dimension of God is particularly valuable.
0:08:15 > 0:08:18One of the first pieces you wrote after your most recent bout
0:08:18 > 0:08:20of illness was from Tolstoy's work.
0:08:20 > 0:08:23You described it as almost autobiogr a man who
0:08:23 > 0:08:26is dying and reviews his life.
0:08:26 > 0:08:31You said in the end, there's no death
0:08:31 > 0:08:32but only light.
0:08:32 > 0:08:35That happens on the last page of the novel.
0:08:35 > 0:08:42It's a harrowing description of excruciating pain -
0:08:43 > 0:08:45screaming that went on for three days, complete alienation
0:08:45 > 0:08:53from his wife, from his son.
0:08:53 > 0:08:57Suddenly, on the last page, it is only the last
0:08:57 > 0:09:00page, this moment comes when he asks for forgiveness of his wife,
0:09:00 > 0:09:04and his little boy is holding his hand.
0:09:04 > 0:09:07He asks for forgiveness.
0:09:07 > 0:09:13His little boy is holding his hand.
0:09:13 > 0:09:15He asks for forgiveness.
0:09:15 > 0:09:17At that moment, the pain seems to disappear.
0:09:17 > 0:09:18There is no death.
0:09:18 > 0:09:19There is only light.
0:09:19 > 0:09:21Let's talk about the importance of God.
0:09:21 > 0:09:23You described the way you write music as almost
0:09:23 > 0:09:24like divine dictation.
0:09:24 > 0:09:26Yes, that's a bit pompous of me.
0:09:26 > 0:09:29It is clear when you talk about it t from
0:09:29 > 0:09:30using it.
0:09:30 > 0:09:32An expression of William Blake's.
0:09:32 > 0:09:40But it is, in a sense, you channelling God.
0:09:40 > 0:09:43It seems to me that is what is happening.
0:09:43 > 0:09:47When I wrote the 99 names of Allah according to the Koran,
0:09:47 > 0:09:53I meditated.
0:09:53 > 0:09:56It's more accurate to say I walked around the garden,
0:09:56 > 0:10:01repeating the Arab word.
0:10:01 > 0:10:03The names.
0:10:03 > 0:10:06It seemed, on a daily basis, that a melody
0:10:06 > 0:10:09started to form in my mind to the Arabic words.
0:10:09 > 0:10:13(MUSIC PLAYS)
0:10:39 > 0:10:45Everything today tends to be one-dimensional.
0:10:45 > 0:10:51People criticise Muslims, Catholics too easily.
0:10:51 > 0:10:53Journalists too easily make jabs at Catholics.
0:10:53 > 0:10:56They don't deal with the massive depth of Catholicism
0:10:56 > 0:11:00or the depth of Islam.
0:11:00 > 0:11:07I think it's...
0:11:07 > 0:11:11Maybe there are programmes that want to disprove Mohammed.
0:11:11 > 0:11:13It is not just the historical dimensions of religion
0:11:13 > 0:11:20but they are speaking on a different level.
0:11:20 > 0:11:22Their one-dimensional thinking is only historical and mystical.
0:11:22 > 0:11:25This is what is surprising about you.
0:11:25 > 0:11:28You talk unapologetically about your belief in God
0:11:28 > 0:11:36and what you are trying to do.
0:11:36 > 0:11:40Which almost seems surprising in these times, when we have
0:11:40 > 0:11:56militant atheism, religion being at its extremes, fundamentalism.
0:11:56 > 0:11:59It's reached a kind of senility, old age and decrepitude.
0:11:59 > 0:12:00These things are likely to happen.
0:12:00 > 0:12:01What has?
0:12:01 > 0:12:01All religions?
0:12:01 > 0:12:03All religions, have reached old age.
0:12:03 > 0:12:06There are aspect of senility and decrepitude...
0:12:06 > 0:12:08What happens to them?
0:12:08 > 0:12:14Do they die?
0:12:14 > 0:12:17No, I think, well, I'm speaking above my depth at the moment.
0:12:17 > 0:12:21But the Hindus say that we are at the end of a period,
0:12:21 > 0:12:28where they forecast a kind of disillusionment of religion.
0:12:28 > 0:12:32Then there will be a mighty resurgence.
0:12:32 > 0:12:33I don't know what will happen.
0:12:33 > 0:12:35That is what the Hindu doctrine is.
0:12:35 > 0:12:38This is one that you believe?
0:12:38 > 0:12:41Well, when I say I believe, I would put it to
0:12:41 > 0:12:42music.
0:12:42 > 0:12:45Perhaps it is the power of the position you find yourself
0:12:45 > 0:12:49in, where you are talking about God.
0:12:49 > 0:12:53I wonder whether it makes you more or less popular.
0:12:54 > 0:12:56The critics hate it.
0:12:56 > 0:12:59They love it when I say that religion is in a state
0:12:59 > 0:13:01of decrepitude.
0:13:01 > 0:13:05Because they think I have given up on religion.
0:13:05 > 0:13:06But you haven't?
0:13:06 > 0:13:09Not at all.
0:13:09 > 0:13:14You said you were Presbyterian but you were attracted
0:13:14 > 0:13:16by Catholicism and you converted to Orthodox in 1977.
0:13:16 > 0:13:20Yes.
0:13:20 > 0:13:30Since then, you had sort of fused it with...
0:13:30 > 0:13:34Am I right in thinking you have fused it with Hinduism and Buddhism?
0:13:34 > 0:13:36Well I believe all religions are equally
0:13:36 > 0:13:36true.
0:13:36 > 0:13:37Otherwise they are equally false.
0:13:37 > 0:13:38It must be that.
0:13:38 > 0:13:42That is another perspective.
0:13:42 > 0:13:45But - Plato's argument is that in the beginning,
0:13:45 > 0:13:45God and Heaven
0:13:45 > 0:13:50and Earth joined and there was only one primal being.
0:13:50 > 0:13:52God.
0:13:52 > 0:13:54Therefore, in logic, all religions must be equally true.
0:13:54 > 0:13:56You are no longer Orthodox?
0:13:56 > 0:13:58You have to be something, I think, in this life.
0:13:58 > 0:14:00Because it's a fallen world.
0:14:00 > 0:14:03You cannot be a Hindu and a Muslim and
0:14:03 > 0:14:03Christian.
0:14:03 > 0:14:04All at once.
0:14:04 > 0:14:06Then it becomes a new age kerfuffle.
0:14:06 > 0:14:10You have to be something.
0:14:10 > 0:14:12Up to a point, you have to acknowled the
0:14:12 > 0:14:22discipline of that particular religion.
0:14:22 > 0:14:25Although you say that you are member of the orthodox church,
0:14:25 > 0:14:27you are adapting in taking things from other religions,
0:14:27 > 0:14:33people listen to you and say it is only new age nonsense.
0:14:33 > 0:14:35I do not think it is.
0:14:35 > 0:14:36What you say to them?
0:14:36 > 0:14:40I say I am an orthodox, I have to live by the disciplines
0:14:40 > 0:14:41of the orthodox religion.
0:14:41 > 0:14:45We have an orthodox chapel right here, I used to be quite fanatical
0:14:45 > 0:14:49about it but I...
0:14:49 > 0:14:51That seems to have passed.
0:14:51 > 0:14:59I converted it into a chapel.
0:14:59 > 0:15:02But I have been rethinking my relationship with one of the most
0:15:02 > 0:15:07powerful influences in my life.
0:15:07 > 0:15:11I have not spoken about this before, I knew a Protestant and Presbyterian
0:15:11 > 0:15:19minister who was tortured by his faith.
0:15:20 > 0:15:24He used to break down at sermons, he was a very unique character.
0:15:24 > 0:15:29He told me that life is a creeping tragedy.
0:15:29 > 0:15:41Only at the end of my life do I understand what he meant by it.
0:15:41 > 0:15:43That life is tragic, that there is another
0:15:43 > 0:15:44dimension to it.
0:15:44 > 0:15:46You have the critics occasionally railing against you.
0:15:46 > 0:15:49The recent concert they did not seem to do that so much.
0:15:49 > 0:16:02They thought there was a substance and transparency, I think so too.
0:16:02 > 0:16:04You didn't used to say that you cared, ...
0:16:04 > 0:16:05But yes, I care.
0:16:05 > 0:16:11For those people who buy your CDs, that one was one of the biggest
0:16:11 > 0:16:16selling classical CDs ever, and also after the death of princess
0:16:16 > 0:16:22Diana where your piece for her was used as the coffin
0:16:22 > 0:16:27was being taken out and that prompted a remarkable response.
0:16:27 > 0:16:32I wrote that piece for a family friend, a girl who had been knocked
0:16:32 > 0:16:37off a bicycle and died.
0:16:37 > 0:16:43It was extraordinary for her parents to see the life of that piece
0:16:43 > 0:16:46because I only wrote it as a private tribute to a friend.
0:16:46 > 0:16:51Somehow gained that national recognition.
0:16:51 > 0:16:54You said you are trying to channel God and people seem receptive
0:16:54 > 0:17:01to that, yet it is a remarkably secular age.
0:17:01 > 0:17:07Yes.
0:17:09 > 0:17:11Are they responding to the God in your work
0:17:11 > 0:17:13or are they responding to you?
0:17:14 > 0:17:16I do not know.
0:17:17 > 0:17:18I don't.
0:17:18 > 0:17:22I honestly believe that it is impossible to fall out
0:17:22 > 0:17:26of the transcendent, that no matter how much noise
0:17:26 > 0:17:33atheists make they do not think they fall out of the transcendent.
0:17:33 > 0:17:37If we are made in the image of God is impossible.
0:17:37 > 0:17:38Explain what you mean.
0:17:38 > 0:17:42You mean that atheists are made in the image of God too?
0:17:42 > 0:17:46Yes, no matter how hard they try and rail against him I do not think
0:17:46 > 0:17:52they fall completely out of God.
0:17:52 > 0:17:55I mean, I have never found an atheist, and my daughters says
0:17:55 > 0:17:58atheists are so boring, but I've never found an atheist
0:17:58 > 0:18:00who convinces me.
0:18:00 > 0:18:05I know when I read sometimes any of the great mystical poets,
0:18:05 > 0:18:11I do not know why, I just know that it is right.
0:18:12 > 0:18:15I listen to atheists but no matter how intelligent and brilliant
0:18:15 > 0:18:19they are, no atheist writer convinces me.
0:18:19 > 0:18:23They do not inspire me.
0:18:23 > 0:18:26There must be something wrong.
0:18:26 > 0:18:30You have described at least for some of your work that it has come
0:18:30 > 0:18:31to you fully formed?
0:18:31 > 0:18:35Yes, very often when a person dies they seem to leave a gift
0:18:35 > 0:18:45of a piece of music.
0:18:45 > 0:18:48It has happened countless times, when a Catholic monk died
0:18:48 > 0:18:52and as I drove home from the funeral these notes came into my head
0:18:52 > 0:18:57and that became the requiem for him.
0:18:57 > 0:19:00Is that fully formed?
0:19:00 > 0:19:06No, no, that is an artistic...
0:19:06 > 0:19:10I get the initial idea and then I go home and work it out,
0:19:10 > 0:19:12not fully formed.
0:19:12 > 0:19:17That is not quite true.
0:19:17 > 0:19:20One I had fully formed, my mother was driving me home
0:19:20 > 0:19:27from Cornwall and I just knew where the piece existed.
0:19:27 > 0:19:30That is the only time that it has come out fully formed.
0:19:30 > 0:19:36Some have said that your music is simple music for simple minds.
0:19:36 > 0:19:41Listen to the recent music, it is not so simple.
0:19:41 > 0:19:43But I love simplicity.
0:19:43 > 0:19:46You cannot say that Beethoven was a simplistic composer,
0:19:46 > 0:19:48but you can say that Mozart...
0:19:48 > 0:19:51Everything he wrote was simple but there are bits that come
0:19:51 > 0:19:59in from time to time, but you can say he is a simple composer.
0:19:59 > 0:20:05He is like a being that was dropped out of paradise.
0:20:05 > 0:20:08Is all good music, does it all come from God?
0:20:08 > 0:20:11I think it must do.
0:20:11 > 0:20:19For you, it seems the ritual is important.
0:20:19 > 0:20:22Forgive me to use the phrase, but you use the ideas,
0:20:22 > 0:20:26use the universality of religion, you use it because of its rituals...
0:20:26 > 0:20:28Because of its rituals and its beauty.
0:20:28 > 0:20:30Because of its rituals and its beauty.
0:20:30 > 0:20:33The problem with Western rituals is they have thrown out
0:20:33 > 0:20:35so many things.
0:20:35 > 0:20:39They have thrown out the beauty.
0:20:39 > 0:20:42Throwing out the Latin language, the Catholic Church seems to have
0:20:42 > 0:20:44lost a great deal.
0:20:45 > 0:20:47They are bringing it back to some extent,
0:20:47 > 0:20:51but it is just that ritual.
0:20:51 > 0:20:55I am sure the Orthodox Church is just as corrupt as the Catholic
0:20:55 > 0:20:58Church but they do not pronounce on world issues,
0:20:58 > 0:21:04they keep quiet on world issues.
0:21:04 > 0:21:08I am sure they are just as corrupt.
0:21:08 > 0:21:11Not pronouncing on moral issues is a good thing?
0:21:11 > 0:21:14People should be free to...
0:21:14 > 0:21:19It embarrasses me when the Catholic Church announces on moral issues.
0:21:19 > 0:21:23I do not think they are able to deal with it, I think the present Pope
0:21:23 > 0:21:30is a very good idea, he is very special.
0:21:30 > 0:21:34In terms of what the ritual means for you, and your music,
0:21:34 > 0:21:37you talk about being inspired by devotional music,
0:21:37 > 0:21:41part of it is not music, it is creating a space
0:21:41 > 0:21:46for contemplation.
0:21:46 > 0:21:52But do you think that is true of all music?
0:21:52 > 0:21:54I think you are right, it is creating space
0:21:54 > 0:21:55for contemplation.
0:21:55 > 0:22:00It is the one thing I have contributed to music.
0:22:00 > 0:22:05I have written large ritual pieces written to be performed in large
0:22:05 > 0:22:10spaces usually churches, large spaces.
0:22:11 > 0:22:14There are certain pieces that last all night.
0:22:14 > 0:22:18In a way I have tried to reinvent what has been taken away
0:22:18 > 0:22:24from the churches, in a sense.
0:22:24 > 0:22:28For many, the way you became a public figure way back in 1968,
0:22:28 > 0:22:31because you listen to that piece now and how it is so different
0:22:31 > 0:22:37to where you are now, what do you think of it?
0:22:37 > 0:22:41I love it.
0:22:41 > 0:22:45It is a piece you ought to write when you are 20,
0:22:45 > 0:22:49is full of ideas, imaginative, surrealist, I was interested
0:22:49 > 0:22:52in surrealism, all of those ideas were interested to be engaged
0:22:52 > 0:22:58with when you are young.
0:22:58 > 0:23:03It starts with a description of a whale and then...
0:23:04 > 0:23:08Incorporates so many different things.
0:23:08 > 0:23:12You said it was written by an angry young man and some of the things
0:23:12 > 0:23:15you were railing against them have not changed.
0:23:15 > 0:23:22You mean the po-faced nature of modern art?
0:23:22 > 0:23:25The po-faced nature of modern Art.
0:23:25 > 0:23:28The fundamentalist...
0:23:28 > 0:23:31It was an area you could not criticise.
0:23:31 > 0:23:33They were writing this stuff that was very
0:23:33 > 0:23:42dangerously near mathematics.
0:23:42 > 0:23:44It must contain mathematics but it must contain inspiration
0:23:44 > 0:23:46and divine inspiration.
0:23:46 > 0:23:50Are you still angry about the same things?
0:23:50 > 0:23:53And you are still writing as much as you always have been?
0:23:53 > 0:23:59Some days I am flat out.
0:23:59 > 0:24:02There is a considerable amount.
0:24:02 > 0:24:07It is stuff of which you are proud?
0:24:07 > 0:24:08Yes, yes.
0:24:08 > 0:24:12So John Tavener, thank you for coming on HARDtalk.