:00:18. > :00:21.stopped about a decade ago. Now on Little. The political standoff in
:00:21. > :00:23.Egypt remains in the balance, with thousands of supporters of ousted
:00:23. > :00:26.president Mohamed Morsi camped-out in Cairo. The interim government
:00:26. > :00:34.wants them removed but more bloodshed could follow if the troops
:00:34. > :00:37.move in. My guess today is Egypt's new Foreign Minister, Nabil Fahmy.
:00:37. > :00:40.He is part of a government which many of his compatriots view as
:00:40. > :00:50.illegitimate. So will they bring democracy to Egypt as promised or
:00:50. > :01:11.
:01:11. > :01:19.will the streets of Cairo once again become a battlefield? Nabil Fahmy,
:01:19. > :01:22.welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. Thousands of pro- Morsi supporters
:01:22. > :01:25.are on the streets, setting up barricades in defending their right
:01:26. > :01:32.to stay there until the ousted president is reinstated. What you
:01:32. > :01:37.plan to do about that? Before and that, let me correct something is at
:01:37. > :01:41.the beginning. This government was not installed by the military. There
:01:41. > :01:46.was an interim civilian president, the head of the court, who was
:01:46. > :01:53.chosen as president consistent with our Constitution. He then nominated
:01:53. > :01:57.Prime Minister who established a government. Secondly, anybody have
:01:57. > :02:02.the right to demonstrate and even to have set ends. Any were in Egypt.
:02:02. > :02:08.Provided that they do not obstruct traffic or the axis of people to
:02:08. > :02:13.their homes and so on. And provided that it remains peaceful. We will
:02:13. > :02:17.make every effort we can, we are doing that now, to reach a peaceful
:02:17. > :02:22.resolution to this, consistent with the law, but to do it with the power
:02:22. > :02:26.of persuasion rather than the use of force. At the end of the day, the
:02:26. > :02:31.rule of law has to apply to everyone. There cannot be a
:02:31. > :02:41.contradiction between providing, enabling members of our society to
:02:41. > :02:41.
:02:41. > :02:44.demonstrate, and creating security for others around them. So you think
:02:44. > :02:49.there could be a possibility of the army removing demonstrators
:02:49. > :02:57.forcibly? Whatever happens will happen according to the law, by
:02:57. > :03:07.court decision. The agency mandated to do this is the police force. They
:03:07. > :03:15.will take the lead on this. There have -- is the head of the army is
:03:15. > :03:21.said to want this sorted out by the year to holiday on August the 8th.
:03:21. > :03:26.Yes, we are moving towards a religious holiday on Thursday. But
:03:26. > :03:31.there has been a very recent attempt to use the offices of foreign
:03:31. > :03:39.parties as well as local parties to try and find a way to resolve this
:03:39. > :03:41.through the powers of persuasion. General Sese also says that a number
:03:41. > :03:48.of protesters have used violence and terrorism. Is that what these people
:03:48. > :03:53.are, terrorist? If you listen to their videos and watch the videos
:03:53. > :04:02.broadcast on satellite television, from within at least one of the
:04:02. > :04:09.squares, you will see some of the Muslim Brotherhood leaders openly
:04:09. > :04:14.saying that the violence in the Sinai will subside immediately if
:04:14. > :04:17.the situation in Cairo is resolved. That is a clear linkage between
:04:17. > :04:24.violence that has nothing to do with these demonstrations and
:04:24. > :04:30.demonstrations or set-ins in Cairo. Others are not accusing them of the
:04:30. > :04:35.brotherhood of that, they are saying it openly. So in your view, there is
:04:35. > :04:41.a direct link between people protesting against the ousting of
:04:41. > :04:45.President Morsi and attacks in the Sinai? Again, they have admitted
:04:45. > :04:49.this directly. It is not a matter of an opinion of somebody who disagrees
:04:49. > :04:54.with them. It is broadcast on television, saying that openly. But
:04:54. > :04:59.I would also add that there have been cases against police stations
:04:59. > :05:04.far beyond whether demonstrators are. Things that have nothing to do
:05:04. > :05:09.with demonstrations on the street. For example, a bomb exploding at the
:05:09. > :05:17.police station in Montessori. That has nothing to do with the
:05:17. > :05:20.demonstrations, it is an act of terror. -- Mansour. Who was
:05:20. > :05:22.responsible for this, we don't know. But we need to create an
:05:22. > :05:28.atmosphere where this can be resolved with the power of
:05:29. > :05:33.persuasion. How urgent is this? How much time to they have to reach an
:05:33. > :05:43.agreement before forces used by the police force? By definition, it is
:05:43. > :05:44.
:05:44. > :05:47.very urgent. A majority of the Egyptians Pillai and want Egypt to
:05:47. > :05:51.move on, they want a roadmap established by Egyptian society to
:05:51. > :05:59.be implemented. They want the committee on the Constitution to
:05:59. > :06:05.continue its work. They want the two elections to be held over the next
:06:05. > :06:10.seven to nine months at the most. You cannot do that if you continue
:06:10. > :06:16.to have an insecure society, and you cannot start up the economy if
:06:16. > :06:19.production is not possible because of lack of security and goods and
:06:19. > :06:26.services cannot flow freely, and tourists cannot come back to the
:06:26. > :06:32.contrary. You talk about the good offices of outside supporters. Last
:06:32. > :06:39.week, John Kerry, the US Secretary of State, urged Egypt to pull back
:06:39. > :06:45.from the brink, as he said it. Is it the pressure exerted on Egypt by the
:06:45. > :06:48.US and others that has prevented the use of force on demonstrators?
:06:48. > :06:54.that is not the point. Egyptians on all sides, definitely on the side of
:06:54. > :06:56.the government, want to resolve this peacefully. There is no desire to
:06:56. > :07:01.peacefully. There is no desire to use force, even force according to
:07:01. > :07:05.law, if it is possible to resolve using persuasion. Think when Mr
:07:05. > :07:12.Carrey was referring to moving back from the brink, he was not talking
:07:12. > :07:17.about Egypt as a whole, including the opposition. The other side has
:07:17. > :07:23.to respond at the same time. They will be included in the political
:07:23. > :07:26.process thereafter. Has the US giving you any guarantee that its
:07:26. > :07:36.substantial military and development age that it gives to Egypt every
:07:36. > :07:37.year will continue, despite the fact is not financially support
:07:37. > :07:43.governments were democratically elected government has been
:07:43. > :07:46.overthrown the military? First of military,
:07:46. > :07:50.military, the people went out on the streets objecting to the President
:07:50. > :07:54.and the government, calling for new elections. The military simply
:07:54. > :07:58.responded to the call of the people and handed authority over
:07:58. > :08:02.immediately to a civilian president and a civilian government. We have
:08:03. > :08:07.not had discussions of the kind you mention with the Americans. What we
:08:07. > :08:11.are focusing on now is resolving the crisis we have in Egypt and
:08:11. > :08:20.hopefully we will be able to do that. In either case we will respect
:08:20. > :08:22.the law. And you expect US aid to continue? We will do to do for
:08:22. > :08:30.Egypt's national interest, and other countries and have two assessed that
:08:30. > :08:35.situation properly and in context. Have we made the best effort to
:08:35. > :08:39.achieve a peaceful solution? Having foreign parties here, the US and the
:08:39. > :08:45.EU, and Arab countries, talking to both sides, with the blessing of the
:08:45. > :08:49.government, is I think clear evidence that we are searching for a
:08:49. > :08:54.peaceful resolution. That has to involve the other side responding as
:08:54. > :08:58.well. There is a lot of fear around the world of what could happen in
:08:58. > :09:02.the event that forces used. Human Rights Watch among others say that
:09:03. > :09:10.any attempt to disperse the demonstrations forcibly will lead to
:09:10. > :09:12.a bloodbath. Do you agree? I think the situation is very tense. I would
:09:12. > :09:16.refer you to Amnesty International, which just two days ago issued a
:09:16. > :09:24.statement saying that there were heavy weapons inside rubble where
:09:24. > :09:28.the Muslim Brotherhood groups are. This could have consequences
:09:29. > :09:32.worldwide. We are making the best effort to resolve it peacefully.
:09:32. > :09:36.Despite fears of what could happen as a result of any attempt to use
:09:36. > :09:44.force, you don't seem to be giving a guarantee that force will not be
:09:44. > :09:50.used. That remains an option on the table. What we have said repeatedly,
:09:51. > :09:55.and I repeat again today, every achieve this through the powers of
:09:55. > :10:00.persuasion, including allowing for the offices of friendly countries,
:10:00. > :10:09.which are ongoing now, any actions that will be taken after that will
:10:09. > :10:12.be according to the law. Let me ask about the former, Mr Morsi. Any
:10:12. > :10:17.long-term solution will have to embrace in some way, where is he?
:10:18. > :10:27.Where is he being held? He is held in a safe and secure area. Formal
:10:28. > :10:28.
:10:28. > :10:38.charges have been started to in the hands of the judge. Charges
:10:38. > :10:43.of what? Charges related to cases in but again, I don't want to engage
:10:43. > :10:46.with the formal charges, that has to be decided by the judge himself.
:10:46. > :10:51.must surely know what the charges, because it is widely believed that
:10:51. > :10:56.if he is being investigated for charges that include murder and
:10:56. > :11:00.kidnapping. Is that true? I don't know what the charges. One has to be
:11:00. > :11:05.careful when looking at legal cases. As the investigative judge looks at
:11:05. > :11:08.this, he will determine what the charge may or may not be. Whether
:11:08. > :11:12.there is evidence not. And consequently, whether they should be
:11:12. > :11:21.a prosecution or not. This process has started but is not yet clearly
:11:21. > :11:27.defined. It is now a formal legal process. Can you see what people
:11:27. > :11:29.around the world view this as an old-fashioned military coup? I think
:11:29. > :11:35.because people are looking at it only in terms of the picture,
:11:35. > :11:40.snapshot of what is happening in Egypt, without the context. We have
:11:40. > :11:45.had to revo?I ? had to revos. In 2011, the people spoke out, the
:11:45. > :11:49.military intervened, and the military continued to govern for a
:11:49. > :11:54.year and a half. Nobody around the world thought that was a coup. Into
:11:54. > :12:00.thousands are tiny, the people spoke out, the military intervened to
:12:00. > :12:06.prevent a bloodbath, and then handed over. But the difference is, that in
:12:06. > :12:12.this case the military removed a democratically elected government.
:12:12. > :12:17.That was not trying to 11. That is your opinion. People who will
:12:17. > :12:27.support in the past would argue that he was elected as well. -- supported
:12:27. > :12:30.Mubarak. 20 to 30 million people are on the street. If you had that
:12:30. > :12:39.number going out towards Downing Street, any British government would
:12:39. > :12:41.resign. Many are worrying about the return of the Mubarak era. A
:12:41. > :12:49.prominent human rights activist has said that this is Mubarak without
:12:49. > :12:55.Mubarak. I don't think so. One should not underestimate the
:12:55. > :13:00.that came out twice in two and a half years in tens of millions. They
:13:00. > :13:06.came out expressing a desire for change, desire to participate in the
:13:06. > :13:13.future. They will not accept authoritarian rule again. We housed
:13:13. > :13:15.the steps in the Constitution, we started on reconciliation. We have
:13:15. > :13:22.two elections for Parliament and President within seven months.
:13:22. > :13:25.Maximum of nine months. Let me just ask you about the way in which the
:13:25. > :13:29.military intervened a few weeks ago. Leading up to the removal of
:13:29. > :13:32.President Morsi, according to the Wall Street Journal, there was a
:13:32. > :13:36.series of meetings between Egypt's top generals and leaders of the
:13:36. > :13:40.opposition. The army spokesman himself admitted that there was a
:13:41. > :13:44.process of getting to know people that previously the military had
:13:44. > :13:49.little dealings with. According to the newspaper, they often met in the
:13:49. > :13:53.naval officers on the Nile. If that is true, it starts to look like much
:13:53. > :14:02.less like an emergency response by the army and more like something
:14:02. > :14:06.the military and the opposition. Doesn't it? Again, it is an issue of
:14:06. > :14:11.looking at the snapshot over the context. In both of these
:14:11. > :14:15.revolutions, 2011 and 2013, the Egyptian people announced the date
:14:15. > :14:22.of the revolution and where they were going to demonstrate and why.
:14:22. > :14:29.These were not people hidden behind closed doors. It was a public
:14:29. > :14:32.announcement, four months before, that they were collecting ten or 20
:14:32. > :14:38.million signature is, and would submit their figures before the
:14:38. > :14:46.30th, and then demonstrate on the 30th. Anybody in Egypt could have
:14:46. > :14:49.contacted all of these stakeholders. These were not hidden advocates.
:14:49. > :14:53.Another development that many human rights observers find very sinister
:14:53. > :14:57.is the reconstitution of the state security investigation service, part
:14:57. > :15:03.of the police force that was notorious under the Hosni Mubarak
:15:03. > :15:07.regime, and which was disbanded under the 2011 revolution, but now
:15:07. > :15:10.it is back. People see the return of the old Establishment coming back on
:15:10. > :15:17.the coattails of this remarkable popular uprising that you mentioned
:15:17. > :15:22.several times. We have many, many issues to discuss among ourselves as
:15:22. > :15:26.Egyptians in trying to determine our political identity in the 21st
:15:26. > :15:30.century. Part of the discussion on the Constitution, and then the
:15:30. > :15:34.nature of the state itself, will involve the rights of civilians
:15:34. > :15:39.versus the government, the rights of the world and the ruler, and the
:15:39. > :15:47.rights of the security services, the military, religion in society. This
:15:47. > :15:53.will be subject to debate in the activist says these are treat --
:15:54. > :15:59.these units committed the most atrocious human rights violations.
:16:00. > :16:04.Even the killing of Islamist during the 1990s. Now they are back. Many
:16:04. > :16:10.people who want to change a regime in Egypt see something -- see that
:16:10. > :16:17.as something sinister. With a president who comes from the high
:16:18. > :16:22.scored in the land, a civilian of course, a civilian prime minister,
:16:22. > :16:25.who has -- who is a world renowned economist, and a number of ministers
:16:25. > :16:30.who are highly professional, they have committed themselves to
:16:30. > :16:35.civilian rule, to transparency, to human rights and democracy. Let's
:16:35. > :16:41.get started and bring this thing together properly. You have had and
:16:41. > :16:46.boys for the United States and the UK -- the EU involved. -- envoys.
:16:46. > :16:50.Eva is a sense of what is going on. Whatever it mergers at the end of
:16:50. > :16:57.this progress, it has to include and embrace the Islamists in some form,
:16:57. > :17:05.hasn't it? I am not sure that they met with the former president,
:17:05. > :17:10.Mohamed Morsi. I know they met other leaders. That being said, yes. This
:17:10. > :17:15.process has two and up including all walks of life in Egypt, Islamists
:17:15. > :17:20.and non- Islamists, and hopefully also the Muslim Brotherhood members.
:17:20. > :17:24.That is something that we are quite straightforward about. The immediate
:17:24. > :17:28.issue is how do you reduce the potential for violence, how do you
:17:28. > :17:35.enter the incitement of violence, and allow for things to come down,
:17:35. > :17:43.so that we had -- we can have a true reconciliation process, which will
:17:43. > :17:48.be open to all members of society. Is there a question mark over your
:17:48. > :17:56.own legitimacy to Govan? You were a loyal supporter of the Mubarak
:17:56. > :18:01.government. Your career has been spent in serving that government.
:18:01. > :18:05.Many people will see you as part of the old Establishment returning.
:18:05. > :18:11.Again, you are looking at eight shot rather than the contacts. The
:18:12. > :18:16.Egyptian diplomatic service is a civil service. We do not have a
:18:16. > :18:22.system where a party wins and therefore puts a high level employee
:18:22. > :18:27.into the Hyatt portfolio places. Our diplomats start at 21 to 23, and
:18:27. > :18:32.they continue for 30 years, irrespective of who is president and
:18:32. > :18:40.who is not. They act professionally. I left government in 2008, two .5
:18:41. > :18:45.years before the revolution. have a timetable now for a new
:18:45. > :18:50.constitution, new elections and then a presidential election. Is that
:18:50. > :18:55.timetable gone to be met, within nine months? We are trying to do
:18:55. > :18:59.that, and the quicker that we started moving on the roadmap, the
:18:59. > :19:03.more definitely we will give out the dates. We can actually finish in
:19:03. > :19:11.seven months, but the upper limit is nine months. As a further indication
:19:11. > :19:13.of transparency, we have announced that we would be happy to have the
:19:13. > :19:18.EU as other international organisations observing and
:19:18. > :19:23.monitoring the elections. There are reports emerging that the government
:19:23. > :19:32.is negotiated a secret face-saving deal with Mr Moore Sime, in which he
:19:32. > :19:36.will be released from detention in agreement for him to announce his
:19:36. > :19:42.resignation and the formal transfer of power? Is that is what is being
:19:42. > :19:47.discussed? Again, I deal with the foreign ministers portfolio. I am
:19:47. > :19:50.not a negotiating player in the Constitution that are occurring with
:19:50. > :19:57.Woolston Brotherhood leaders. I do not know the actual details. --
:19:57. > :20:01.Muslim Brotherhood. But it is a bit far-fetched. It sounds like a number
:20:01. > :20:07.of suggestions that I have heard from non- officials, but I do not
:20:07. > :20:17.circles. But any long-term settlement will have to involve the
:20:17. > :20:17.
:20:17. > :20:23.release of Mr Moore C, surely. -- Mr Morsi. I think it will include the
:20:23. > :20:27.Muslim Brotherhood and other Islamists. But it should include
:20:27. > :20:31.that the law in place to everyone. If there is no evidence, those who
:20:31. > :20:34.are detained issue to be released. If there is evidence, then the law
:20:34. > :20:44.should apply to them, fairly, without discrimination or
:20:44. > :20:47.dangerous signal to the rest of the region, the signal being too
:20:47. > :20:53.Islamists elsewhere, that there is simply no point in taking part in
:20:53. > :20:56.elections, that if you win, if you get your hands anywhere near the
:20:56. > :21:01.levers of power, the old Establishment will find a way to get
:21:01. > :21:07.rid of you. That is an invitation to Islamists elsewhere to get other
:21:07. > :21:12.ways to hold power. I think you are missing the whole point of a
:21:12. > :21:17.democracy. It is not about holding an election, it is about providing
:21:17. > :21:23.power to the people and responding to the concerns of the people. If 20
:21:23. > :21:26.or 30 million people demonstrated towards Downing house, you would not
:21:26. > :21:32.have a silent response from the Prime Minister. He would respond
:21:32. > :21:36.politically. I take you back to general debauch in France, in the
:21:36. > :21:41.60s, he called for a rapper random, he said if he does not get a certain
:21:41. > :21:44.percentage of support from the people, he would resign, and he
:21:44. > :21:51.did. Over 20 million people went out to demonstrate on the streets of
:21:51. > :21:55.Egypt, twice, in 2.5 years, publicly, on the date certain, and
:21:55. > :21:58.they deserve a political response. Had the former president responded
:21:58. > :22:04.to them, and called for new elections, he would not have been
:22:04. > :22:11.removed from power. But the fly in the ointment, tens of millions of
:22:11. > :22:17.box and cast their votes in favour of President Morsi. He had a
:22:17. > :22:22.democratic legitimacy, that your government lacks. The answer is very
:22:22. > :22:26.simple. I can give you examples in Europe as well. You can be elected
:22:26. > :22:30.democratically and then be a tyrant, and I do not think you want
:22:30. > :22:35.me to mention names in terms of Europe. The issue is whether he was
:22:35. > :22:39.elected democratically, the issue is the key Govan inclusively, for all
:22:39. > :22:43.Egyptians, and he was governing after revolutions, so the need to
:22:43. > :22:48.respond to all the people, is something that needs to be taken
:22:48. > :22:54.into account. He still would have been in power, had he called for
:22:54. > :23:00.free elections. And yet he is lot of support on the streets, and
:23:00. > :23:03.if you stick to your timetable and hold those elections within a year,
:23:03. > :23:08.within nine months, there is a reasonable chance that he may win an
:23:08. > :23:13.election again. That will be determined by the ballot box. But
:23:13. > :23:18.that is an instant -- excellent question. The mistake that we did
:23:18. > :23:24.the first time, is that we do not determine our Constitution first,
:23:24. > :23:29.therefore when you elected President Morsi, he could have succeeded all
:23:29. > :23:33.he could have failed, but without a constitution, it allows for
:23:33. > :23:38.exclusive governance. If you have a constitution, if you elect a good
:23:38. > :23:43.president or not, it is bound by the rules of the game. That is why this
:23:43. > :23:47.time around, we are leading down a Constitution first. When we do that,
:23:47. > :23:51.whoever wins a majority in Parliament and the election, be that