:00:02. > :00:05.were a woman in her 30s died after becoming infected we came for her
:00:05. > :00:09.father. She has not been near in her 30s died after becoming infected we
:00:09. > :00:17.came for her father. She has not been there infected poultry.
:00:17. > :00:21.Time for HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk. South Africa is
:00:21. > :00:25.holding general elections next year and for a 1st-time adult new
:00:25. > :00:29.generation will cast their vote. The born free generation, they have no
:00:29. > :00:31.direct memory of the struggle against apartheid and they have
:00:31. > :00:35.grown up with a powerful African National Congress as their
:00:35. > :00:38.government rather than as their liberators. In South Africa still
:00:38. > :00:43.struggling to overcome inequality, corruption and youth unemployment,
:00:43. > :00:46.what hopes can be party offered to the younger generation? Is a guest
:00:47. > :00:50.today is Mzwandile Masina, the interim president of the ANC Youth
:00:50. > :00:54.League. He is in charge of restructuring a troubled league
:00:54. > :01:04.after its controversial former president was expelled. As the youth
:01:04. > :01:30.
:01:30. > :01:37.league still got anything to offer very much. The ANC Youth League is
:01:37. > :01:43.in real trouble isn't it? You said membership manipulation and
:01:43. > :01:53.institutionalised factionalism. How did it get to that state and the
:01:53. > :01:56.
:01:56. > :02:01.first place? I think it is part of the transition D&C has been facing.
:02:02. > :02:11.-- the AMC has been facing. I think there was too much Euro worship this
:02:12. > :02:12.
:02:12. > :02:20.match zero worship. I do not want to speak about individuals. But I think
:02:20. > :02:27.the affairs of the youth league were in a chaotic and shambolic state and
:02:27. > :02:33.we have been tasked with reclaiming a former glory. Your response has
:02:33. > :02:42.been to go around closing down branches and you have been accused
:02:42. > :02:47.of purging the leadership of anyone who is critical of the leadership.
:02:48. > :02:51.We have not closed any branches. We are restructuring. Where we have
:02:51. > :02:59.found still has problems, we have been able to take quick and decisive
:02:59. > :03:04.action. None of the branches were affected through this experience. My
:03:04. > :03:09.view and that of the collective that I league is that we would want to
:03:09. > :03:18.assist branches that are stronger and more responsive. Let me put you
:03:18. > :03:22.what the former president of the league has said. President Zuma is
:03:22. > :03:29.destroying the youth league of Nelson Mandela. They are destroying
:03:29. > :03:34.its because of fear of the unknown and fear of dissent. He knows
:03:34. > :03:39.nothing about the youth league. He knows -- you can say nothing about
:03:39. > :03:45.the youth league. From what I am sitting, he must focus on his
:03:45. > :03:49.new-found party and I don't really want him to worry about the affairs
:03:49. > :03:54.of the youth league. The membership of the organisation understand what
:03:54. > :04:00.is at stake here and understand why it is important for us to rebuild
:04:00. > :04:04.the ANC Youth League. Are you the right person to do it? You are not
:04:04. > :04:10.young enough to be a member of the youth league. The maximum ages 35.
:04:10. > :04:15.You you over that. That does not matter. It could be the woman's
:04:15. > :04:20.league but it would not need to change to be a woman. I have been
:04:20. > :04:29.brought in to assist the youth. I have served them for over 24 years
:04:29. > :04:37.so I am best served to fix the problems. Critics say this is
:04:37. > :04:41.heavy-handed centralism imposed on the descent in the membership. One
:04:42. > :04:46.critic says that what we have seen his leadership making the decisions
:04:46. > :04:56.and saying that it is agreed. It makes it difficult to have
:04:56. > :05:02.discussion of the party. The ANC has always interfered with the events at
:05:02. > :05:07.BF -- the affairs of the youth league. At all times, when the youth
:05:07. > :05:14.league has undergone problems, the ANC has always come to intervene,
:05:14. > :05:21.including in 2008 where the youth league conference which elected Mr
:05:21. > :05:28.Mollema collapsed. The ANC made sure that that conference proceeded
:05:28. > :05:33.smoothly. It can be correct that anyone could see the ANC intervenes
:05:33. > :05:41.when there are problems. I don't think it should be correct that it
:05:41. > :05:45.is wrong. The ANC -- the youth league has given the ANC its new
:05:45. > :05:48.pride. It is a way for the ANC to renew itself from within. If you
:05:48. > :05:53.bring it under control of the leadership, that vital role
:05:53. > :06:03.disappears, doesn't it? It has always been under the control of the
:06:03. > :06:06.Yangtze. It is an autonomous body -- of the ANC. It has never been an
:06:06. > :06:16.opposition within the agency. It cannot be correct that it is going
:06:16. > :06:16.
:06:17. > :06:20.to be tainted. -- came. I will be able to articulate some of the
:06:21. > :06:23.policy positions that we hold very strongly in the youth league that we
:06:23. > :06:31.think the ANC should be able to consider and will push for those
:06:31. > :06:34.until they are achieved. You're also accused of using this further your
:06:34. > :06:41.own -- using this to further your own career. You are accused of being
:06:41. > :06:49.power hungry. One critic says you lack leadership and want to use the
:06:49. > :06:55.ANC Youth League to campaign for your uncontrollable ambition.
:06:55. > :06:58.not think I want to spend lots of time speaking about myself. Those
:06:59. > :07:03.who have worked with me overtime note that I'm a disciplined member.
:07:03. > :07:07.This has nothing to do with me. I am under no illusion that anyone can
:07:07. > :07:13.agree with me. They might hold the view is that they are holding, I
:07:13. > :07:15.don't know where they come from, but the most unfortunate part is that
:07:15. > :07:20.people make unsubstantiated accusations and I'm not going to
:07:20. > :07:29.entertain those. Give me some sense of how strong the youth league is
:07:29. > :07:36.now. How many members have you got crystal --? We don't know no the
:07:36. > :07:43.number of members. We try to put that together. Real members,
:07:43. > :07:52.supposed to pretend ones? We want to separate those who are subjected to
:07:52. > :07:57.a process. I'm talking about real members. We want to make sure that
:07:57. > :08:02.these are not members belong to individuals. When you say you want
:08:02. > :08:05.to talk about real members of the ANC, what many people here is
:08:05. > :08:12.obedient members. Interested in the ones who are willing to toe the
:08:12. > :08:20.party line and willing to operate within the party system. We do not
:08:20. > :08:25.want anarchy and misguided militants in the first place . Some have
:08:25. > :08:31.already defined themselves in the new party that has been defined with
:08:31. > :08:38.ambition and sitting outside the leadership. We are not going to lead
:08:38. > :08:46.a youth league that way. When we are accused of ambition, our conscience
:08:46. > :08:50.is very clear. We want membership that is going to assist the party to
:08:50. > :08:56.infuse new ideas. It is not about us, it is about what we can do for
:08:56. > :08:59.the betterment of South Africa. they talk about South Africa's youth
:08:59. > :09:03.and their engagement in the political discourse. It is a young
:09:03. > :09:08.country. 38% of the country is aged between 15 and 35, which is the
:09:08. > :09:13.youth league 's democratic. -- demographic. A quarter said they are
:09:13. > :09:16.not going to vote in the next elections. When you think about the
:09:16. > :09:20.sacrifices their parents generation made to secure them the right to
:09:20. > :09:30.vote, in 20 years a quarter of them so there is no point to vote at all.
:09:30. > :09:31.
:09:31. > :09:34.That's lamentable isn't it? I am aware that in a recent statistics
:09:35. > :09:39.that we have been looking at, almost 6 million young people who are
:09:40. > :09:49.supposed to be 1st-time voters, we are targeting them to make sure that
:09:50. > :09:50.
:09:50. > :09:59.they are registered so they can vote. I want to believe that the
:09:59. > :10:05.notion of people with no history of the ANC is fallacious. They know
:10:05. > :10:09.from their parents generation. did think that many of them say
:10:10. > :10:13.there is no point in voting? I do not know what motivates some of the
:10:13. > :10:17.statistics. I do not want to comment much on them or criticise them
:10:17. > :10:25.because I do not know the methodology used. But I can tell
:10:25. > :10:33.you... That you are the president of the ANC youth league? Should you not
:10:33. > :10:39.be finding out? We have designed a programme that aims to talk to what
:10:39. > :10:41.the young people of South Africa are looking for. They do not seem to be
:10:41. > :10:51.fired up and away previous generations were fired up. The
:10:51. > :10:56.
:10:56. > :11:02.political that remain. We no longer needs the armed wing. Our new
:11:02. > :11:11.struggle is a struggle for economic freedom in our lifetime. So we need
:11:11. > :11:14.to define what we mean by that. We know that many of them that we
:11:14. > :11:18.interact with it may not be at a scientific level, but they are
:11:18. > :11:22.saying to us that if you prioritise education you will solve other
:11:22. > :11:29.problems. If you deal with issues of unemployment and poverty, you will
:11:29. > :11:35.be getting to the issues that affect us. Sports, culture, all the things
:11:35. > :11:45.that are interested in us. Is that not wear Mollema has stolen a march
:11:45. > :11:50.
:11:50. > :11:54.on you. He is focusing on those issues. He is promising them liars.
:11:54. > :12:00.He has got into the heart of the question that economic freedom has
:12:00. > :12:06.not followed the political freedoms won 20 years ago. No. He has told
:12:06. > :12:09.the young people that he wants to make them his own party. What we are
:12:09. > :12:12.saying is that young people are not confused. They do not think that
:12:12. > :12:17.freedom is going to be delivered tomorrow. They know that the process
:12:17. > :12:20.of the economic struggle must be properly theorised, but also it must
:12:20. > :12:25.be backed with a very clear programme of action. That is why
:12:25. > :12:34.they have comfort with the ANC. it has been 20 years now. Our
:12:34. > :12:38.patient must the people of South Africa be? Including -- it took the
:12:38. > :12:48.generation of Nelson Mandela almost 50 years to get the freedom we have
:12:48. > :12:56.
:12:56. > :12:59.in our lifetime. So why must they be patient ? There is a strong and
:12:59. > :13:03.invalid foundation. We have done that. But the second phase of what
:13:03. > :13:06.we must do is to make sure that South Africa is reintegrated into
:13:06. > :13:13.the economic space so that we can speak to the economic global
:13:13. > :13:16.community. There is a big political problem bubbling away and it will
:13:16. > :13:24.not the way forever. It will reach a crisis point at some point. Let me
:13:24. > :13:27.quote to you the former media consultant. He says the ANC did is
:13:27. > :13:33.to approach the youth if it wants to stay in power. The majority of
:13:33. > :13:37.people will have no history at all. All and will have no loyalty to the
:13:37. > :13:42.ANC from the memory of the struggle, but will scrutinise the
:13:42. > :13:51.ANC on what it is delivered in the delivery of economic freedom.
:13:51. > :13:56.ANC is 110 years old. The oldest member of the ANC is Nelson Mandela.
:13:56. > :13:59.He was not there when the ANC was formed. All of us rely on history.
:13:59. > :14:04.The ANC has a well-documented history of the liberation struggle.
:14:04. > :14:08.But more importantly, they are having a record of services
:14:08. > :14:18.delivered in South Africa. Young people will know what the ANC has
:14:18. > :14:22.
:14:22. > :14:30.been able to do. In 1993, just before democracy, the government had
:14:30. > :14:35.a reform for education. They set aside money for education in South
:14:35. > :14:45.Africa. We were getting close to free education. Those young people
:14:45. > :14:48.are interested in. They are threats, they have opened up their own party.
:14:48. > :14:58.26 cent of young voters would like to vote for them. That is not far
:14:58. > :14:58.
:14:58. > :15:03.behind the ANC. The media has bull terrier motors against the ANC. I
:15:03. > :15:13.have no doubt in my mind that people are not going to follow someone who
:15:13. > :15:14.
:15:14. > :15:22.is facing those kind of charges. In an environment of deep inequality,
:15:22. > :15:28.voices like Julius Mollema will gain great attraction. People have put
:15:28. > :15:37.confidence in the policies of the ANC. They continue to return to the
:15:37. > :15:44.ANC. Some are certain things that have not been done well. When the
:15:44. > :15:52.president took over office in 2009, could not create a number of jobs
:15:52. > :16:02.that we would have expected. There are issues of poverty and
:16:02. > :16:04.
:16:04. > :16:08.inequality. The gap between the rich and poor continues to widened. We
:16:08. > :16:12.have experienced those problems in government for 19 years now. We will
:16:12. > :16:19.look at your record in government. One thing the ANC pledged to do was
:16:19. > :16:26.to transfer 30% of white owned farmland to black people by 2014. So
:16:26. > :16:32.far, only 7% of land has changed hands. There was a lot of trial and
:16:32. > :16:36.error. We need a willing buyer and a willing seller. I have just come
:16:36. > :16:45.back from a conference where we have changed our land policy. It means
:16:45. > :16:52.that the state will now, within the Constitution, we will not do illegal
:16:52. > :16:58.things to excise the masses. Will we see land restitution speeding up the
:16:58. > :17:07.Mac yes. For the first time we are going to know that pieces of land
:17:07. > :17:14.available, we will assist the government to ascertain the real
:17:14. > :17:23.value of the land. The previous year league wanted land seizures without
:17:23. > :17:30.compensation, is that still a position you take? We just came from
:17:30. > :17:37.a conference where the ANC is working on policy. It is not a land
:17:37. > :17:46.grabbing policy. We have two applied the policies of the ANC. It is good
:17:46. > :17:55.that they have started this. This not only Julius Mollema, they're
:17:55. > :18:03.rather people. -- it is not only. Some very solid figures in South
:18:03. > :18:11.African politicians. Respected Wall Street, not in South Africa. She is
:18:11. > :18:16.not a politician. She says she is determined to rescue South Africa,
:18:16. > :18:21.where would she all along? The voice of the ANC says the same thing about
:18:21. > :18:28.everyone. If they are not in the ANC, they have no credibility or
:18:28. > :18:35.legitimacy. What credibility does she have? Since the days in the
:18:35. > :18:39.black consciousness that, she has served the world, she has not been
:18:39. > :18:44.in the political space. They are not sure why she thinks that young
:18:44. > :18:51.voters can connect better with her than the ruling party. They have
:18:51. > :18:58.delivered service. We now have a track record. We are no longer from
:18:58. > :19:03.a sale. We have done things practically. -- XA. We spoke to her
:19:03. > :19:06.and she said that she was talking about the monumental failure of the
:19:06. > :19:12.government and ANC. Parents are not sure that there shall generally
:19:12. > :19:18.better off than they were. She is a good South African, she can see
:19:18. > :19:23.those things. She can not say such undermining things of the ANC and
:19:23. > :19:27.what the government has been able to deliver. You do not like criticism?
:19:27. > :19:32.We accept criticism. If we do not like criticism we would not be
:19:32. > :19:42.comfortable with new parties. Since 1959, there has always been a voice
:19:42. > :19:43.
:19:43. > :19:52.of dissent. One of the founding fathers of the PEC was an ANC
:19:52. > :19:56.member. He could not go far. Another member went through the same route.
:19:56. > :20:00.Desmond Tutu himself, he said he had voted for the ANC in the past, but
:20:00. > :20:03.will not vote for them after their way they have gone. He said there
:20:03. > :20:09.were very good at the struggle, but they have not made the tradition to
:20:09. > :20:15.becoming a party. He has a right to say so, he did not represent all
:20:15. > :20:22.South Africans. He is an individual, we respect his stature. We think
:20:22. > :20:25.that it is not correct for him to convince South Africans not to vote.
:20:25. > :20:31.We would want to encourage him to go free party of his choice and leave
:20:31. > :20:38.the ANC alone. We are not threatened by what he says. It is on the first
:20:38. > :20:44.time he has said it. The ANC has done well in government. You worried
:20:44. > :20:49.about corruption in Africa? Yes. Why has it taken off under the ANC
:20:49. > :20:59.government? Under the ANC government, has been done. We have
:20:59. > :21:00.
:21:00. > :21:04.put in place institutions that have not been in before. We have
:21:04. > :21:12.strengthened the police and the army. We continue to do work around
:21:12. > :21:17.fighting crime and corruption. yes, South Africa slipped to number
:21:17. > :21:23.67 in the corruption index. It was 36 ten years ago, that is quite a
:21:23. > :21:27.day. We do not control what the international committee was to say
:21:27. > :21:33.about South Africa, but I can only speak about the efforts of the South
:21:33. > :21:43.African government to fight corruption. We have had problems, we
:21:43. > :21:44.
:21:44. > :21:47.have acknowledged them. More effort is being taken. When the closed down
:21:47. > :21:53.the scorpions, because of the recent that we explained, people were
:21:53. > :21:59.complaining. It is not just foreigners seem the corruption is a
:21:59. > :22:03.problem. 77% of the Roman people think that political parties are
:22:03. > :22:11.corrupt or extremely corrupt. ring crime statistics, crime has
:22:11. > :22:17.gone down in a number of years. Corruption does remain a problem. It
:22:17. > :22:23.is not just politicians, it is the public sector. The biggest scandals
:22:23. > :22:28.come from multinational companies. They have defrauded the state.
:22:28. > :22:33.Nobody speaks about them. We want our government to pursue criminal
:22:33. > :22:41.charges against all those companies. We think that it is corruption and
:22:41. > :22:47.fraud. That is what we need to speak about. There is a widespread feeling
:22:47. > :22:53.that in order to get on it over to join the ANC. Many people believe
:22:53. > :22:59.it. I have not come across young people who join the less. We have a
:22:59. > :23:03.number of professionals who have issues they want help with from the
:23:04. > :23:08.ANC. We are talking the accountants, young engineers, IBM
:23:08. > :23:14.professionals. We need the ideas more than anything. We do not
:23:14. > :23:20.promote corruption. He said a sulphur was a problem. It said those
:23:20. > :23:27.who come to the ANC to the military resources must forget it. -- to
:23:27. > :23:31.achieve unless resources. We must flush them out. South Africa is a
:23:31. > :23:35.much more corrupt society that was under government of that. The ANC
:23:35. > :23:41.must take responsibility for that. Isn't this damaging to the
:23:41. > :23:45.country's reputation? The reality is that more is being done to fight
:23:45. > :23:53.crime and corruption. We have put in place institutions like the Hawks,
:23:53. > :23:56.the Public protector, to make sure we fight crime and corruption. Can
:23:56. > :24:04.you make progress before the election? You have got to get the
:24:04. > :24:10.use out and it is also its. They are the machines of the ANC's tradition.
:24:10. > :24:14.We are seeing that the youth of South Africa, the ANC is the only
:24:14. > :24:20.party that will respond to the challenges that face them. The ANC
:24:20. > :24:26.is the only party fighting corruption in government. It cannot