:00:00. > :00:04.suggest the NSA and GCHQ made joint efforts to gather intelligence. Now
:00:04. > :00:11.on BBC News, it is the Italian Prime Minister Enrico Letta in HARDtalk.
:00:11. > :00:17.Today, HARDtalk is on the shores of Lake Como in northern Italy at the
:00:17. > :00:18.annual gathering of the Ambra said the forum of international
:00:19. > :00:23.policymakers. My guest the forum of international
:00:23. > :00:27.five months into the job, he faces a five months into the job, he faces
:00:27. > :00:31.keep his Coalition government series of tough challenges. Can he
:00:31. > :00:35.together? Can he dragged Italy out together? Can he dragged Italy out
:00:35. > :00:40.of its economic malaise? And on Syria, can he come up with a
:00:40. > :01:08.coherent response to the possibility of US military strikes? —— and he
:01:08. > :01:15.Prime Minister Henry K letter, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you ——
:01:15. > :01:20.Enrico Letta. I want to begin by talking about Syria. You have just
:01:20. > :01:24.returned from the G20 summit in St Petersburg, miraculously it seems
:01:24. > :01:28.both President Obama and President Putin came away believing that Italy
:01:28. > :01:33.was on their side. How on earth could that happen? We signed the
:01:33. > :01:37.document presented by and discussed by many countries, European
:01:37. > :01:42.countries, Australia, countries, Australia, Canada,
:01:42. > :01:47.Korea, Japan, United States of course. Because we think it is to
:01:47. > :01:54.give a big reaction, a very clear reaction to what happened on the
:01:54. > :02:02.21st of August. And so it was clear from my point of view that Italy was
:02:02. > :02:06.on this side. Sorry, already I'm not entirely clear. When you say Italy
:02:06. > :02:12.is on this site, you mean the side of President Obama, who clearly says
:02:12. > :02:16.a red line has been crossed, that Assad can be regarded as culpable
:02:16. > :02:22.for the chemical gas attack, and that there must be some sort of
:02:22. > :02:29.military response. Is that the side you're on? No, because the document
:02:29. > :02:29.we signed is very clear in saying we condemn what happened, and we think
:02:29. > :02:39.that the countries like France, the that the countries like France, the
:02:39. > :02:39.United States, and the other countries who want to rain forced on
:02:39. > :02:51.this condemnation, can do that incoherence with the United Nations
:02:51. > :02:52.procedure. This is what we want without UN authorisation, because
:02:52. > :03:01.do. But they say they they say, I want to quote the
:03:01. > :03:07.document? I documentave written it down, the document that
:03:07. > :03:11.you have put your name to says, " The UN security council remains
:03:11. > :03:15.for endless processes that only lead for endless
:03:15. > :03:19.document doesn't mention any to more suffering in Syria". But the
:03:19. > :03:20.document doesn't mention any military action if you have read the
:03:20. > :03:26.document. You're not document. You're not taking
:03:26. > :03:29.seriously the point about the UN security council being paralysed and
:03:29. > :03:37.the world cannot wait for endless processes. You're saying the world
:03:37. > :03:43.can wait? What are you saying?We want exactly to say that the United
:03:43. > :03:50.Nations can not be a power without sanctions. So we want there, and
:03:50. > :03:55.this is the position of other countries, Japan, Spain, and other
:03:55. > :04:01.countries, to sign this document. We want to support a big initiative to
:04:01. > :04:08.avoid the fact that the United Nations is without a response. This
:04:08. > :04:15.is, if I may say so, a fudge. It is a fudge because you know that your
:04:15. > :04:20.own people would not support Italy lining up with the United States
:04:20. > :04:25.making a military intervention. I know very well that Italy has a
:04:25. > :04:30.clear framework, clear framework, clear legal
:04:30. > :04:37.a participant to an initiativent to a participant to an initiative. We
:04:37. > :04:39.a participant to an initiativent to need the UN authorisation. We are in
:04:39. > :04:43.Afghanistan with the United Nations, Afghanistan with the United Nations,
:04:43. > :04:49.we were in Lebanon with the UN and so on. This is for Italian
:04:49. > :04:51.participation. I want to be very close to my parliament and with
:04:51. > :04:53.parliament I know I can condemn what parliament I know I can condemn
:04:53. > :04:55.happened. We can give the support to happened. We can give the support to
:04:55. > :05:04.the initiative of Then what will happen later on will
:05:04. > :05:05.be of course discussed in a second moment. I don't want to take up too
:05:05. > :05:07.much time with Syria. moment. I don't want to take up too
:05:07. > :05:08.much time w? I much time w much time with Syria. It's
:05:08. > :05:12.important. It's very important, important. It's very important, so
:05:12. > :05:15.briefly answer these follow up questions. We saw in the Libya
:05:15. > :05:16.operation that Italy bases, its military facilities, to
:05:16. > :05:27.bases, its military facilities, the U.S.—led attacks on Libya. Are
:05:27. > :05:30.you saying that without specific UN Security Council authorisation
:05:30. > :05:36.there's no chance of Italy lending that kind of support to a U.S.—led
:05:36. > :05:46.operation in Syria? It is absolutely clear that without UN authorisation
:05:46. > :05:48.our proactive participation would be impossible. It depends on what does
:05:48. > :05:53.it mean. It's very clear. Okay. it mean. It's very clear. Okay. One
:05:53. > :05:57.other thing, you've just come back from the G20, you had time to
:05:57. > :05:59.reflect on it, I just wonder what you think Barack Obama, and maybe
:05:59. > :06:05.President Putin as well, handle this President Putin as well, handle this
:06:05. > :06:08.real real difference, fundamental
:06:08. > :06:16.difference over what to do on Syria, and how to address the UN security
:06:16. > :06:20.council element of this story. It's very clear that the Syrian situation
:06:20. > :06:25.reasons. Because there is an reasons. Because there is an
:06:25. > :06:30.unbalanced situation there, it is not very clear what does it mean the
:06:30. > :06:36.opposition there, the opposition to the Bashar al—Assad regime. There's
:06:36. > :06:37.the experience from what happened in Libya and in other Arab Spring
:06:37. > :06:43.countries. It is not easy there, countries. It is not easy there, it
:06:43. > :06:48.is not black and white, the is not black and white, the
:06:48. > :06:56.situation. Do you think Obama has handled it well? I follow him
:06:57. > :07:00.because I think that the European Union and the United States needs to
:07:00. > :07:10.stay together. We need to avoid stay together. We need to avoid a
:07:10. > :07:18.or in other periods of our recent or in
:07:18. > :07:22.real is the risk of a division real is the risk of a division
:07:22. > :07:30.between the United States and most of Europe on this issue? After the
:07:30. > :07:34.discussion we had, the risk, in my discussion we had, the risk, in my
:07:34. > :07:41.view, is lower, because we created a framework of general consensus on
:07:41. > :07:44.some points. Then each country will take his own responsibility. But we
:07:44. > :07:54.created the conditions to avoid a created the conditions to avoid a
:07:54. > :07:59.fight, a collapse between Europeans and the United States. This is why I
:08:00. > :08:01.signed. This is why I think I am satisfied. Let me talk about Europe
:08:01. > :08:06.now, we have talked now, we have talked about the
:08:06. > :08:10.European powers and their stances on Syria, and clearly they have been
:08:10. > :08:16.divided. France and Germany still significantly divided. Isn't this
:08:16. > :08:20.just another example, and we have seen it through the sovereign debt
:08:20. > :08:24.crisis as well, of where Europe talks about unity, talks about
:08:24. > :08:35.collective action, but repeatedly fails to deliver. Yes. Of course.
:08:35. > :08:39.The division we had in St Petersburg is another division of a long list
:08:39. > :08:47.of divisions. Europe isn't working, is it? Europe has a lot of
:08:47. > :08:56.problems. When there are sudden decisions to take we have a
:08:56. > :09:01.decision—making process that is, in my view, to complex with a timetable
:09:01. > :09:09.that is too long. You mentioned that is too long. You mentioned the
:09:09. > :09:10.sovereign debt crisis, we took something like
:09:10. > :09:11.sovereign debt crisis, we took something l? I something l
:09:11. > :09:15.sovereign debt crisis, we took something like 30 summits before
:09:15. > :09:23.Council said whatever it takes. The arriving to
:09:23. > :09:29.Council said whatever it takes. The ECB would intervene and do whatever
:09:29. > :09:32.it takes to stem the crisis. That is the first moment when we started to
:09:32. > :09:41.It seems to me, let's talk more about the economic situation, the
:09:41. > :09:44.feeling we have seen in the last few feeling we have seen in the last few
:09:44. > :09:48.months that the Eurozone debt crisis is through the worst, that things
:09:48. > :09:55.are getting better, it is very complacent. If we look at you in
:09:55. > :10:01.Italy, your economy is in desperate shape. Your national debt is the
:10:01. > :10:06.only to the United States and Japan in terms of its overall size, and in
:10:06. > :10:18.terms of the relationship to GDP, it is 130% of your GDP. euro2 trillion!
:10:18. > :10:22.Italy is drowning in debt. It is fundamentally damaging this country
:10:22. > :10:27.and its future prospects. No, it is not like that. It is not in a
:10:27. > :10:32.desperate shape, I'm so sorry, but it is not like you said. For many
:10:32. > :10:39.reasons. The first reason, the debt, yes we have a big debt, but all
:10:39. > :10:45.European debts raised in the five years of crisis, the Italian debt
:10:46. > :10:53.was big, very big, but it was the debt increasing in the lowest level
:10:53. > :10:57.in comparison with all the other debt in the European crisis. But Mr
:10:57. > :11:00.prime minister, senior economist like the former chief economist at
:11:00. > :11:04.the IMF, Simon the IMF, Simon Johnson, said
:11:04. > :11:07.fundamentally when it comes to economic governance, when it comes
:11:07. > :11:09.to levels of corruption, when it comes to th? I comes to th
:11:09. > :11:12.to levels of corruption, when it comes to the failures of the legal
:11:12. > :11:16.system and the costs that imposes on the country, and the need for
:11:16. > :11:17.structural reform to get the private sector moving, Italy is almost as
:11:18. > :11:23.bad as Greece. And undertake structural reform, you
:11:23. > :11:29.will not be able to tackle Italy 's problems. We had and we applied
:11:29. > :11:35.will not be able to tackle Italy 's best pension reform in Europe. Today
:11:35. > :11:41.we have a pension reform with the raising of
:11:41. > :11:45.retirement from 60, to 67 years old. So we have a
:11:45. > :11:50.welfare. Be sustainable welfare is welfare. Be sustainable welfare is
:11:50. > :11:58.pension reform, it was one of the pension reform, it was
:11:58. > :12:05.why I'm optimistic for the future. why I'm optimistic for the future.
:12:05. > :12:08.Our fiscal consolidation is good. The European Union said yes to the
:12:08. > :12:16.exit from the procedure deficit. The primary surplus is
:12:16. > :12:21.good. And at the end of the year growth will start again. You make it
:12:21. > :12:27.sound very rosy, this is what the mark from Moody 's, a senior credit
:12:27. > :12:32.officer at Moody 's said just four months ago, he said we cannot rule
:12:33. > :12:35.out that Italy will end up asking for help from the ECB and the
:12:35. > :12:39.instability?I ? instabilitye you instability fund. Are you saying to
:12:39. > :12:43.instability?I ? instabilitye you me that you can roll it out? There's
:12:43. > :12:49.no way in your view that Italy will never need any emergency help? We
:12:49. > :12:54.don't need any emergency help, we are doing our homework. At the last
:12:54. > :13:00.G20, we wrote in the papers that Italy's structural reforms were well
:13:01. > :13:07.and very well applied. Of course, we need growth, and we are... With the
:13:07. > :13:13.reforms we are doing we are reaching growth. And of course we have from
:13:13. > :13:21.the past a big debt. You sure do.I know. You sure do.We have to tackle
:13:21. > :13:25.these problems, and we are. One interesting specific, I want to get
:13:25. > :13:29.to politics, the way in which you, for all your commitments to reform
:13:29. > :13:34.and economic growth, are hamstrung by the nature of the Coalition that
:13:34. > :13:37.you lead. You cannot govern without the support of Silvio Berlusconi and
:13:37. > :13:42.his right of centre his right of centre political
:13:42. > :13:45.they would only support you, movement. They were adamant that
:13:45. > :13:49.they would only support you, continue to support you, if you
:13:49. > :13:50.withdrew a significant property tax continue to support you, if you
:13:50. > :13:54.because they said it was completely because they said it was completely
:13:54. > :13:57.unfair, it was unacceptable. In the end you had to bow to their
:13:57. > :13:59.pressure, despite your drive to austerity and to drive down the
:13:59. > :14:07.budget and tackle the estate tax, the reforms were
:14:08. > :14:22.need to be politically strong. discussed and approved two weeks
:14:22. > :14:27.situations for the next year. situations for the next year.
:14:27. > :14:31.Everybody in the Coalition agreed on that. But you had no choice.It is a
:14:31. > :14:35.reform, I would say, it is a reform, I would say, it is a
:14:36. > :14:40.compromise. Berlusconi's party held a gun to your head and said it is
:14:40. > :14:45.either our way... We reached a compromise. You may call it a
:14:45. > :14:48.compromise but my wider point is about your relationship with
:14:48. > :14:50.Berlusconi and his party, and it matters right now because this
:14:50. > :14:54.coming week the Senate in Italy coming week the Senate in Italy will
:14:54. > :14:59.decide, or at least begin decide, or at least begin the
:14:59. > :15:01.process of deciding, whether to expel Mr Berlusconi as a result of
:15:01. > :15:07.his conviction on fraud charges at his conviction on fraud charges at
:15:07. > :15:12.the beginning of August. Be clear with me, Mr Prime Minister, do you
:15:12. > :15:24.believe Berlusconi must be expelled from the Senate? I believe that the
:15:24. > :15:27.law has to be applied. Not a responsibility of my government, I
:15:27. > :15:29.don't have to take any decisions on that. There is a separation of
:15:29. > :15:34.power. You say, it's not power. You say, it's not my
:15:34. > :15:42.problem? It most certainly will problem? It most certainly will be
:15:42. > :15:50.your problem. Leave the Coalition is Berlusconi is expelled from the
:15:50. > :15:51.Senate. I think they will not leave the Coalition. You think they are
:15:51. > :15:58.bluffing? I don't know. I don't know bluffing? I don't know. I don't
:15:58. > :16:04.discussions. Sure that the what will happen with internal
:16:04. > :16:08.discussions. Sure that the government will continue. Put it
:16:08. > :16:16.this this way, because Berlusconi is such
:16:16. > :16:31.a symbol of how Italy is being run for the last ten or 15 years, the
:16:31. > :16:41.other day, Berlusconi's departure is as necessary as it is overdue. You
:16:41. > :16:43.with that? —— do you agree. You think he has to be removed from
:16:43. > :16:48.Italian politics? I work Italian politics? I work for
:16:48. > :16:58.reforms, I work for reforms. I am sure that it is
:16:58. > :17:05.necessary to apply those rules in Italy. Why won't you give me a
:17:05. > :17:06.straight answer? Is it because you are still a little bit scared of
:17:06. > :17:16.Berlusconi? No. This is my job. Berlusconi? No. This is my job. I
:17:16. > :17:24.will be very much concentrated on that. I want to ask you a few more
:17:24. > :17:30.specific point about reform. One of the very important symbols you made
:17:30. > :17:38.when he came into power was two point Italy's first black Minister.
:17:38. > :17:45.She has had a very tough time. She has had bananas thrown at her at
:17:45. > :17:50.rallies. She has had the Deputy Speaker of the Senate say that every
:17:50. > :18:00.time he looks at her he thinks of an orang—utan . How are you going to
:18:00. > :18:08.eliminate that sort of shocking racism from Italian political
:18:08. > :18:16.culture? More and more convinced to have taken the right decision. A
:18:16. > :18:24.integration, we are demonstrating black Minister, Minister for
:18:24. > :18:27.integration, we are demonstrating that the country has under the
:18:27. > :18:47.the table. I want to know why you as is their existing. With
:18:47. > :18:52.the table. I want to know why you as Prime Minister have not done your
:18:52. > :19:02.level best to ensure that he is removed from office? I asked for the
:19:02. > :19:12.resignation. The only way to have the Speaker or the Deputy Speaker of
:19:12. > :19:19.the Parliament, the only way is the Parliament, the only way is the
:19:19. > :19:31.resignation, it is impossible to vote against. One local official
:19:31. > :19:38.said why does no one rape are so she can understand what victims feel?
:19:38. > :19:46.Sentenced by the justice. It is not Sentenced by the justice. It is not
:19:46. > :19:50.an easy job, due no. I am Sentenced by the justice. It is not
:19:50. > :19:57.an easy job? I an easy jobing an easy job, due no. I am getting
:19:57. > :20:00.that impression. You said your mission was to bring morals to
:20:00. > :20:04.Italian public life, our public life Italian public life, our public life
:20:04. > :20:10.which you said which you said urgently needs
:20:10. > :20:11.structural economic reform, how long structural economic reform, how long
:20:11. > :20:20.is it going to take you to root out structural economic reform, how long
:20:20. > :20:25.the Malays that you see in your country and bring morality and
:20:25. > :20:29.nourishment to this country? One reform is already applied two months
:20:29. > :21:02.much corruption is a consequention i ago. For civil justice.
:21:02. > :21:03.much corruption is a consequention i that. I decided to cut for instance
:21:03. > :21:05.the salary of the ministers and the the salary of the ministers and the
:21:05. > :21:13.Prime Minister. We the salary of the ministers and the
:21:13. > :21:13.Prime Minis? I Prime Minis the salary of the ministers and the
:21:13. > :21:19.Prime Minister. We decided to avoid the double salary that we had.
:21:19. > :21:24.the big reform of the public the big reform of th? I the big
:21:24. > :21:32.the big reform of the public finance... That was one of the
:21:32. > :21:41.wider cultural malaise? Centres upon wider cultural malaise? Centres upon
:21:41. > :21:43.tax evasion, systemic and endemic corruption at all levels of
:21:43. > :21:54.society. Undermining the Italian corruption at all levels of
:21:54. > :21:57.economy to the tune of 25% a year. Creating condition to fight against
:21:57. > :22:03.Creating co? I Creating coainst Creating condition to fight against
:22:03. > :22:06.fiscal evasion having high sanctions and also creating a contrast of
:22:06. > :22:09.interests. We started a reform, interests. We started a reform, two
:22:09. > :22:14.months ago, our main point interests. We started a reform, two
:22:14. > :22:14.months ago, our main? I months a interests. We started a reform, two
:22:14. > :22:16.months ago, our main point is we are prepared to present structural
:22:16. > :22:28.reform. reform. On the self
:22:28. > :22:32.money—laundering. You think you can change a culture, do you? I will
:22:32. > :22:36.change a cu? I change a cull change a culture, do you? I will
:22:36. > :22:43.change the laws. What about the mindset? It is not easy.Prime
:22:43. > :22:48.Minister, this might sound like a Minister, this might sound like a
:22:48. > :22:57.strange way to end, but do you have children? Three.Three children.
:22:57. > :23:04.strange way to end, but do you have sure you
:23:04. > :23:12.strange way to end, but do you have country. This is why my first battle
:23:12. > :23:26.against youth unemployment in country. This is why my first battle
:23:26. > :23:33.against youth unemployment in Italy. Jobs for youth. For a young
:23:33. > :23:43.view crucial for the future. We have view crucial for the future. We have
:23:43. > :23:54.reached for the first time in our history a higher percentage of
:23:54. > :23:59.unemployment. I have proposed a preapproved —— and we are proved.
:23:59. > :24:02.The problem is you might not be in The problem is you might not be in
:24:02. > :24:14.power long enough to deliver on these promises. You will see. We
:24:14. > :24:18.will meet again next year. Prime Minister Enrico Letta, that sounds
:24:18. > :24:26.like an attractive proposition. Thank you very