:00:00. > :00:05.the scheme will boost the economy by £15 billion.
:00:05. > :00:17.HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk. HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk.
:00:17. > :00:20.Vladimir Putin appears to be Vladimir Putin appears to be
:00:20. > :00:21.relishing his role as the centre of the diplomatic manoeuvring over
:00:21. > :00:24.Syria. It reinforces his image as the diplomatic manoeuvring over
:00:24. > :00:30.Syria. It reinforces his image as the strong man in the Kremlin. Just
:00:30. > :00:33.how strong is he? A recent round of municipal elections gave the
:00:33. > :00:39.anti—Putin movement a much—needed morale boost. My guest is the
:00:39. > :00:43.chess champion, Garry Kasparov. Is chess champion, Garry Kasparov. Is
:00:43. > :01:15.there any serious challenge to the supremacy of Putinism?
:01:15. > :01:25.Garry Kasparov, welcome to HARDtalk. You see and icy Vladimir Putin all
:01:25. > :01:29.over our TV screens. We see him at the centre of the diplomatic
:01:29. > :01:32.manoeuvring over Syria. He looks like a man in control. Would he
:01:32. > :01:40.accept that is the way that Russians see him today? He has been in
:01:40. > :01:52.Russian television. Now he is trying We are used to seeing him at
:01:52. > :01:55.to present... The reason that he looks a strong and in control,
:01:55. > :01:57.because the opposition, the because
:01:57. > :02:05.that dictators also grow with the leadership of the
:02:05. > :02:13.week is there in Moscow for 40 weakness of the opposition.
:02:13. > :02:19.week is there in Moscow for 40 years, not, not just by accident. He
:02:19. > :02:20.is very good in placing his bets and recognising the strengths and the
:02:20. > :02:27.weaknesses of his opponents. Do you think that President Obama and other
:02:27. > :02:37.Western leaders consistently Western leaders consistently
:02:37. > :02:43.comprehensively outmanoeuvred by Putin. He has been made to look
:02:43. > :02:49.indecisive and weak. Let's not take things around. Oh Balmer acted in
:02:49. > :02:59.decisively. He looked weak. Putin exploited that. We may suspect that
:02:59. > :03:04.Bashar al—Assad's asset —— use of chemical weapons may be in car
:03:04. > :03:09.reached. He may not be in such a desperate situation to use it now.
:03:09. > :03:15.Probably, Putin wanted Probably, Putin wanted to see
:03:15. > :03:19.Obama's reaction. But the way that he acted, or the way that he did not
:03:19. > :03:25.act, definitely offered Putin great opportunity. How much does it make
:03:25. > :03:31.you despair? You speak as a member of the Russian opposition. You have
:03:31. > :03:35.been trying to change Russian politics and get rid of Vladimir
:03:36. > :03:40.Putin. Right now the polls tell us that Russians approve of the way
:03:40. > :03:49.that Putin handles Russia's place in the world. We do not know yet. The
:03:49. > :03:53.only way to figure out whether Russian people approve or disapprove
:03:53. > :03:57.is to run free and fair elections. We saw in Moscow in elections which
:03:57. > :04:02.were not fair or free, but it was as close as we could get. Even without
:04:02. > :04:11.access to television, which is totally state—controlled, Alexey had
:04:11. > :04:21.a very formidable result. He got 27%. The other candidate got 51%.
:04:21. > :04:29.You are an opposition member who refuses to accept a poll, and
:04:29. > :04:31.always... I trust in mathematics. If you have polling stations with
:04:31. > :04:37.observers you have polling stations with
:04:37. > :04:46.first time that you and others have on the outskirts of
:04:47. > :04:47.first time that you and others have cried foul when an election result
:04:47. > :04:57.has not gone your way. You said did as well... After the result, and
:04:57. > :04:58.after people like you said there was rigging in the election, someone
:04:58. > :05:03.said, guys, you demand fairness, and said, guys, you demand fairness, and
:05:03. > :05:07.accept it. It means you count accept it. It means you count
:05:07. > :05:12.correctly. In any elections, if correctly. In any elections, if you
:05:12. > :05:17.have their results, after 10% of votes are counted, 15 or 20, you can
:05:17. > :05:22.see the change. When you look at the Moscow result, they were jumping all
:05:22. > :05:29.the way around. The Moscow election committee refused to publish the
:05:29. > :05:33.turnouts. During the entire night. Eight o'clock, the polling stations
:05:33. > :05:40.closed, next morning, they do not give a turnout. Most international
:05:40. > :05:45.pretty free and fair. Again, pretty free and fair. Again,
:05:45. > :05:51.compared to what we have before. But it is far from being free and fair
:05:51. > :05:55.by your standards. Even you would a knowledge the trend is to do a
:05:55. > :06:01.somewhat better in election that the ones you saw in 20 election and
:06:01. > :06:05.2012, if the trend is positive, does that not say something interesting
:06:05. > :06:14.about how the Kremlin is regarding its own domestic politics? It feels
:06:14. > :06:21.a bit freer. First of all, Moscow election, it is not the only
:06:21. > :06:22.election in the country. Another major Russian city, its anti—
:06:22. > :06:36.reason that he won, they accepted Kremlin candidate,
:06:36. > :06:38.his victory, is because they had to deal with the other person. Until
:06:38. > :06:43.three in the changing again. I think the Kremlin
:06:43. > :06:48.sure. Then you saw the changing again. I think the Kremlin
:06:48. > :06:52.decided to play this game. It was an experiment. Putin is desperate to
:06:52. > :07:01.understand that Moscow rejected gain
:07:01. > :07:04.understand that Moscow rejected Putin. We calculated 37. I was an
:07:04. > :07:06.observer at one of the polling stations. I stayed on to a fall
:07:06. > :07:15.the morning. He had 32.5%. I do not the morning. He had 32.5%. I do not
:07:15. > :07:19.know about other polling stations. Moscow is not in love with him. They
:07:19. > :07:25.try to find out whether they can afford free and fair elections. The
:07:25. > :07:32.answer is no. Let's focus on this man, Alexey. He is becoming the
:07:32. > :07:37.undisputed leader of the anti—Putin political movement. How do you feel
:07:37. > :07:43.about that? I think it is a very good sign, he is young. I think the
:07:43. > :07:50.future of younger —— Russia belongs to those people. I was matured in
:07:50. > :07:52.the Soviet Union. Even for me, being open—minded, travelling, there are
:07:52. > :07:56.still elements of the Soviet still elements of the Soviet
:07:56. > :08:04.education. For the majority of people of my age, it is an
:08:04. > :08:08.indispensable part of their culture. He belongs to a generation that was
:08:08. > :08:11.born in the Soviet Union. That they've matured in the new Russia.
:08:12. > :08:17.In political terms he is young. He In political terms he is young. He
:08:17. > :08:23.is also a populist. His opponents accuse him of being afraid of Islam.
:08:23. > :08:24.You can find all sorts of incidents of the rugged returns to what some
:08:24. > :08:30.of Russia's minorities, support of Russia's minorities, support of
:08:30. > :08:32.happens every year. Many people see happens every year. Many people see
:08:32. > :08:36.it as it as an example of xenophobia. Is
:08:36. > :08:37.this the right man to be the new figurehead of the Russian
:08:37. > :08:43.opposition? We do not know what will opposition? We do not know what will
:08:43. > :08:49.situation that is highly situation that is
:08:49. > :08:57.unpredictable. Do you have serious reservations about him?
:08:57. > :09:03.reservations but they are not serious. I think he had that... He
:09:03. > :09:05.did a very good job. He has been convicted and his case is a laughing
:09:05. > :09:11.stock. He has to spend five years in prison. It is a kangaroo court in
:09:11. > :09:19.Putin's just before the election. He was
:09:19. > :09:23.reaching people. Just because he is reaching people does not necessarily
:09:23. > :09:32.mean that you and other Liberals in the opposition should shelve your
:09:32. > :09:36.doubts about him. This used —— person used to be with Alexey in a
:09:36. > :09:48.movement. She describes him as the most dangerous man. She has been on
:09:48. > :09:51.Putin's payroll for ages. You can look at the Communist Party. They
:09:51. > :09:58.are puppets in Putin's political theatre. They got the result in
:09:58. > :10:05.Moscow. They had all opportunities. They had chances on television to
:10:06. > :10:08.talk about his problems. That is a verdict. You need to
:10:08. > :10:16.talk about his problems. That is a careful. Absolutely. Opposition is
:10:16. > :10:20.based on certain principles. He careful. Absolutely. Opposition is
:10:20. > :10:25.advocated principles of free and fair elections, free press, when we
:10:25. > :10:26.reach this stage, I am sure a lot of people who voted for him will be
:10:27. > :10:33.asking him questions. The Right asking him questions. The Right now,
:10:33. > :10:38.we are not there. Now it is just about having one thing in common,
:10:38. > :10:44.which is determination to get rid of Putin. Forget Putin for a second, I
:10:44. > :10:46.about restoring the rules, play in about restoring the rules,
:10:46. > :10:51.government and the opposition. by the rules, equal
:10:51. > :10:54.government and the opposition. Alexey has been doing a great job by
:10:54. > :10:59.pushing my country in the right direction. One thing that he has
:10:59. > :11:06.well, is try to stir popular demonstrations, to get Muscovites
:11:06. > :11:14.and other Russians out onto the streets, to say no to Boughton and
:11:14. > :11:18.Putinism. —— no to Putin. But in the last few months, we have seen very
:11:18. > :11:24.little of that. There was only a small gathering. And then he told
:11:24. > :11:30.them to keep calm. Is it the end of them to keep calm. Is it the end of
:11:30. > :11:37.people power? It is a realistic assessment. Putin will not seize
:11:38. > :11:42.power through the ballot. In order to win elections, and to make
:11:42. > :11:49.government except the result, you need more than that. You need more
:11:49. > :11:50.than 100,000. In the end, we come back to polling evidence, the clear
:11:50. > :11:59.majority of Russians still... I'm majority of Russians still... I'm
:11:59. > :12:05.sure that Bashar al—Assad today, in Damascus, will have hundreds of
:12:05. > :12:09.support if you do polling. We know there is a sizeable and steadily
:12:09. > :12:13.growing, crowd of supporters of change. If you look at the young
:12:13. > :12:17.generation, the numbers are generation, the numbers are
:12:17. > :12:22.overwhelming. It takes time. Let's not forget, Putin is not going to
:12:22. > :12:27.seize power through the ballot. If we owned the streets, he will use
:12:27. > :12:31.force, brute force. We already have a lot of people on political trial,
:12:31. > :12:37.behind bars, or doing than simply demonstrating.
:12:37. > :12:42.You have been telling me a lot about how Russia feels but the truth is
:12:42. > :12:47.you don't really know, as you don't live in Russia any more. You are a
:12:47. > :12:54.very well educated, Moscow—based elite. I left my country seven
:12:54. > :12:55.months ago. I still have a pretty good feel for what's going on there.
:12:55. > :13:01.But, yes, if you look But, yes, if you look at the
:13:01. > :13:08.minority. You may call minority. You may call
:13:08. > :13:11.But it's not... When you read But it's not...
:13:11. > :13:15.Russian internet, not only on the Russian internet, not only on the
:13:15. > :13:23.Liberal side, if you look at Nationalists, left wing, it's more
:13:23. > :13:25.reject Putin because it's a dead reject Putin because it's a
:13:25. > :13:33.left—wing nationals. I don't want to end. It offers no future
:13:33. > :13:41.left—wing nationals. I don't want to lecture you about the nature of
:13:41. > :13:41.left—wing nationals. I don't want to strong evidence that there is a
:13:41. > :13:45.strand of nationalism and strand of nationalism and
:13:45. > :13:49.conservatism in Russia that Putin still manages to connect with. One
:13:49. > :13:54.example that we have been looking at in the last few weeks and months,
:13:54. > :13:58.the Russian decision to impose a new law which criminalises those who
:13:58. > :14:03.disseminate information about what is regarded as non—traditional
:14:03. > :14:10.sexual behaviour. Commentated explanation. A civil violation of
:14:10. > :14:16.constitutional rights. And a brazen violation of... That's how you
:14:16. > :14:21.characterise it. My point is, you may dismiss the polls, most Russians
:14:22. > :14:28.particular piece of legislation. particular piece of legislation.
:14:28. > :14:29.Look, I'm sure there are people in the United States where you can
:14:29. > :14:34.gain support for similar gain support for similar
:14:34. > :14:35.legislation. But, luckily the US is protected by the bill of Rights,
:14:35. > :14:40.that will not let it happen. So, that will not let it happen. So,
:14:40. > :14:42.it's easy to find enemies that belong to the minorities and,
:14:42. > :14:46.naturally, if you control belong to the minorities and,
:14:46. > :14:50.naturally, if you control television, and it's 100%
:14:50. > :14:53.state—controlled, you can create all sorts of campaigns against
:14:53. > :15:00.minorities. By the way, ten minutes ago, you spoke about how dangerous
:15:00. > :15:04.he is but right now and you are correctly stating that it's a state
:15:04. > :15:08.propaganda that has inspiring and inciting hatred. I didn't talk about
:15:08. > :15:12.propaganda. I am just trying to opposition really represent anybody
:15:12. > :15:20.diverse elements in opposition really represent anybody
:15:20. > :15:29.other than yourself. We don't know. It's the only way to find out, is
:15:29. > :15:32.just out there elections. Alexei Navalny demonstrated that even being
:15:32. > :15:38.in such difficult conditions, with no access to television, he still
:15:38. > :15:45.had a considerable result, which clearly forced the second round of
:15:45. > :15:48.back to the beginning of our back to the beginning of
:15:48. > :15:55.want a new Russian constitution. A conversation about the
:15:55. > :15:58.want a new Russian constitution. A serious curtailment of the powers of
:15:58. > :16:03.the presidency and you want to see much more power with devolved to the
:16:03. > :16:09.regions. Two elected sheriffs. A very different vision. By the way,
:16:09. > :16:12.when you look at the polls, the moment you start asking questions
:16:12. > :16:14.not related to Putin and you ask about elite had sheriffs, it's a
:16:14. > :16:18.majority everywhere. But if you ask majority everywhere. But if you ask
:16:18. > :16:25.Russians, do you want a strong leader, do you want a strong man or
:16:25. > :16:27.woman at the centre? They say yes because Russian history tells them
:16:27. > :16:32.that when they don't have strong leadership, they have chaos. Now
:16:32. > :16:35.it's very complicated and depends very much on the formula of the
:16:35. > :16:39.question that you present. You can start asking them also about things
:16:39. > :16:46.that matter to them. The regional stock. It will be very opposite. ——
:16:46. > :16:48.regional staff. Psychologically regional staff. Psychologically they
:16:48. > :16:54.may think strong leader. But when you think about psychological power
:16:54. > :16:56.and negative effects on their lives, you will get different answers. One
:16:56. > :17:01.other aspect of the message you have other aspect of the message you have
:17:01. > :17:05.tried to get out about Putin and the current government is you think more
:17:05. > :17:07.could be done and should be done. You tweeted the word cowardice
:17:07. > :17:13.recently in relation to resident Obama. Absolutely. In general, the
:17:13. > :17:19.West is not ready to stand. But, West is not ready to stand. But,
:17:19. > :17:21.hang on, when you talk about the way in which you feel the West should
:17:21. > :17:28.boycott Putin, what do you mean? You boycott Putin, what do you mean? You
:17:28. > :17:30.say it's not symbolism of not going to the winter Olympics... No, it's
:17:30. > :17:35.not stop dealing. It stopped not stop dealing. It stopped
:17:35. > :17:41.providing him with credentials of a strong, democratic leader. That's
:17:41. > :17:47.belongs to the G8 and... ages.
:17:47. > :17:51.belongs to the G8 and... Industrialised democracy. —— rush
:17:51. > :17:59.hour. Right now, Putin is the president of Russia. There's no
:17:59. > :18:10.Russians. This is nonsense. The West West were to
:18:10. > :18:13.Russians. This is nonsense. The West has been dealing with China and
:18:13. > :18:16.China is ten times more important than Russia for trade and other
:18:16. > :18:23.issues. But no one, at least I haven't heard, has called the
:18:23. > :18:27.Chinese leaders democrats. Putin has been thriving with the climate of
:18:27. > :18:30.recognition at him as a deck and a —— of him as a democratic leader. He
:18:30. > :18:35.doesn't use tanks accuses banks doesn't use tanks accuses banks to
:18:35. > :18:37.interval —— infiltrate western critical business and financial
:18:37. > :18:39.circles, that makes him more dangerous. When you look
:18:39. > :18:45.oligarchs, those are not free oligarchs, those are not free
:18:45. > :18:50.agents. They are spreading Putin's impetus around. If President Obama
:18:50. > :18:51.wants to stand against this infiltration, he doesn't even have
:18:51. > :18:58.to send cruise missiles. He has to send cruise missiles. He has to
:18:58. > :19:02.ask people in America, people in the UK, you have a lot of people in
:19:02. > :19:05.Europe, the message to Putin should be clear. You have to play by the
:19:05. > :19:10.rules. If you try to infiltrate our rules. If you try to infiltrate our
:19:10. > :19:18.system or in danger owl way of life, we can go after you. —— owl way of
:19:18. > :19:23.life. The most important element of his construction is his pocket. I
:19:23. > :19:28.sensed the level of your passion and personal animus to Vladimir Putin. I
:19:28. > :19:32.can understand it. For eight years, you have tried to rally Russians
:19:32. > :19:38.around this message. That he is taking Russia in the wrong
:19:38. > :19:44.direction. But the fact you have now chosen to make your life in the
:19:44. > :19:46.United States, you have a wife and child in the United States and
:19:46. > :19:51.you, is it, in delivering this there, that's hardly going to help
:19:51. > :19:52.you, is it, in delivering this message to the ordinary Russian
:19:52. > :19:56.people? Again, as I said, I trust people? Again, as I said,
:19:56. > :20:03.Alexei Navalny's generation. But you Alexei Navalny's generation. But you
:20:03. > :20:11.had a choice to make. You talk about President Obama... You want me to
:20:11. > :20:12.my passport? And then you spend two my passport? And then you spend
:20:12. > :20:19.interest... They say they don't minutes telling...
:20:19. > :20:25.interest... They say they don't intend to charge you. Why not stay
:20:25. > :20:33.in Russia? I was already invited to be a weakness for one of the cases,
:20:33. > :20:37.critical cases, there. Although that you leave as a suspect. It is easy
:20:37. > :20:43.for me to say this but let me be blunt, there are many Russians who
:20:43. > :20:48.have continued opposition fight inside Russia and some of them have
:20:49. > :20:55.accused you of" cowardice" , for walking away. I'm happy to accept
:20:55. > :20:57.criticism from not exactly the names you mentioned but many Westerners
:20:57. > :21:02.who are behind bars. I am happy who are behind bars. I am happy to
:21:02. > :21:08.recognise that I have other choices. Why didn't you stay? Because I will
:21:08. > :21:14.be useless there. You are talking about ten years. The moment you are
:21:14. > :21:18.there, you are locked. I don't think I will be arrested but I could be
:21:18. > :21:23.taken away, my passport could be taken away, and what can I do? Here,
:21:23. > :21:27.I can argue and go around. Either way, the law passed in the US which
:21:27. > :21:32.aims at Putin's oligarchs and aims at Putin's oligarchs and
:21:32. > :21:34.criminals for violating in Russia, that's something I feel that I was
:21:34. > :21:39.partially responsible for. Hang partially responsible for. Hang on,
:21:39. > :21:44.you have changed your message. You just accused US administration of
:21:44. > :21:49.cowardice. It was passed by the house against the will of the White
:21:49. > :21:52.House. If you want to see the truth. Either way, now maybe this
:21:52. > :21:59.value of these —— this law, the bill value of these —— this law, the bill
:21:59. > :22:03.despite the fact that I have been despite the fact that I have
:22:03. > :22:11.depth to curtail Putin's activities fighting hard against anybody who
:22:11. > :22:13.abroad. I wonder if there is a truth abroad. I wonder if there is a truth
:22:13. > :22:15.here that you can't bring yourself to admit, which is you have had to
:22:15. > :22:23.give world's greatest chess player. You
:22:23. > :22:29.back in 2005, to make it your But when you
:22:29. > :22:29.back in 2005, to make it your life's work, you thought you could
:22:29. > :22:35.feel you have lost it? As I said, I win
:22:35. > :22:40.feel you have lost it? As I said, I believe that Putin's demise is not
:22:40. > :22:44.far away at a recognised... With respect, you said that to me four
:22:44. > :22:49.years ago when you were here. You are still here and you are still
:22:49. > :22:54.losing. Look, from now on, you will recognise that Putin is not so much
:22:54. > :23:02.power problem, it's your problem. Every dip take it grows up through
:23:02. > :23:05.different stages. Now you know he can't do anything in Syria or
:23:05. > :23:09.the place. Do you think that if the the place. Do you think that if the
:23:09. > :23:15.West took a different stand towards Putin, one you have outlined, that
:23:15. > :23:20.it would seriously weaken him? Can be West really do things which will
:23:20. > :23:26.help opposition to Putin? It's not even opposition to Putin. If Putin
:23:26. > :23:33.was so confident in 2008, he would throw away the Russian Constitution.
:23:33. > :23:41.He totally ignored it. He would stay for the third or fifth term. But the
:23:41. > :23:43.brilliance of Putin, he has now ensured with a cloak of
:23:43. > :23:52.constitutionality, he can stay till 2024. Look, how about having a bad?
:23:52. > :24:00.He will not be here in 2010. —— He will not be here in 2010. ——
:24:00. > :24:06.2020. Western governments will have to recognise that Putin is their
:24:06. > :24:08.problem. Putin's money is all over the place. The moment we
:24:08. > :24:14.to do something, they will know how to do something, they will know
:24:14. > :24:18.to stop his expansion and all the wrongdoings in the world that are
:24:18. > :24:20.eventually covered by the KGB from Moscow. I can't take your bet but I
:24:20. > :24:22.will shake your hand. Thank you for will shake your hand. Thank you for
:24:22. > :24:27.being on HARDtalk Mac.