:00:00. > :00:20.What now for the Muslim Brotherhood in each of and its political wing
:00:20. > :00:23.the Freedom and Justice Party? Rarely has the fall from power of a
:00:23. > :00:29.party been so quick, dramatic and violent. On the first anniversary of
:00:29. > :00:34.Mohamed Morsi's election, millions took the streets against them,
:00:34. > :00:39.precipitating his removal by the army. Since then, thousands of
:00:39. > :00:43.members and supporters have been arrested, including nearly all the
:00:43. > :00:49.Abdul Mawgoud Dardery, a member of Abdul Mawgoud Dardery, a member of
:00:49. > :01:08.the now suspended parliament. What is the brotherhood's next move?
:01:08. > :01:10.Abdul Mawgoud Dardery, welcome to HARDtalk. They keep having me.
:01:11. > :01:13.Mohamed Morsi in power for a year, Mohamed Morsi in power for a year,
:01:13. > :01:17.millions came out on Why did you think the Muslim
:01:17. > :01:23.Brotherhood got it wrong? They not get it wrong. Millions were in
:01:23. > :01:27.the streets against them, but there were millions on the streets in
:01:27. > :01:29.was created in the revolution. was
:01:29. > :01:36.People have the right to protest. People have the right to protest.
:01:36. > :01:40.This is something good. When the rebellion came out in that massive
:01:40. > :01:45.Morsi, there were 14 million on the Morsi, there were 14 million on the
:01:45. > :02:00.million signatures gathered It is a
:02:00. > :02:07.million signatures gathered against. The other group gathered 26
:02:07. > :02:09.million. If we play the number game, the Egyptian democracy is listless.
:02:09. > :02:14.The ballot is the way to go. It was The ballot is the way to go. It was
:02:14. > :02:20.a creation to justify the coup. a creation to justify the coup. It
:02:20. > :02:23.cannot be justified. They came out in rebellion before Mohamed Morsi
:02:23. > :02:28.was removed from power by the army. It attracted people from all parts
:02:28. > :02:39.of society in Egypt. The point they were making is — look, there were
:02:39. > :02:45.some people who backed him originally because one of the other
:02:45. > :02:47.contenders were seen as a member of the former regime. They say they
:02:47. > :02:52.were alienating. were alienating. When people
:02:52. > :02:57.realised that the coup was behind it, people rejected it, even those
:02:57. > :03:01.who took part are joining the it, people rejected it, even those
:03:01. > :03:08.pro—democracy anti— coup Alliance. They ask you why you thought he got
:03:08. > :03:11.it wrong, look at a poll by the addiction Centre for Public opinion
:03:11. > :03:15.research, it is independent and nonpartisan. They said from a high
:03:15. > :03:20.of 97% after 80 of 97% after 80 days in office, one
:03:20. > :03:21.year later, only 32% of people approve of what the President was
:03:21. > :03:32.doing. That is a fantastic drop. That is what democracy is all about.
:03:32. > :03:34.The numbers go up sometimes, they go down sometimes. The head of the
:03:34. > :03:39.system came down, but the rest of the system was that and was trying
:03:39. > :03:43.to block President Morsi from delivering what the revolution
:03:43. > :03:44.expected us to deliver. I will tell you one reason why there was a
:03:44. > :03:52.dramatic drop in their popularity, dramatic drop in their popularity,
:03:52. > :03:55.between April and May, most and the poll questions Egyptians
:03:55. > :04:01.between April and May, most respondents were concerned that the
:04:01. > :04:04.Muslim Brotherhood is trying to is the most the state and control
:04:04. > :04:11.of Egypt, from 1923 when the British of Egypt, from 1923 when the British
:04:11. > :04:12.presence was that, it is stated clearly that the majority of
:04:12. > :04:17.Egyptians are Muslims. There is Egyptians are Muslims. There is no
:04:18. > :04:28.need to is the mice. What we want to do was protect the people. It is the
:04:28. > :04:31.will of the people that was sabotaged. That is the message it
:04:31. > :04:38.had constantly given. It is the had constantly given. It is the real
:04:38. > :04:43.reason. The fact is this, Mohamed Morsi got only 52% in that
:04:43. > :04:53.election. It shouldn't be the tyranny of the majority that four
:04:53. > :04:59.people out of five, sorry, 50% should tell Egyptian society what is
:04:59. > :05:02.going on. It was democracy. He received 52%. He had the right to
:05:02. > :05:05.run the country. Ignore the 48% run the country. Ignore the 48% that
:05:05. > :05:11.didn't vote for him? It was didn't vote for him? It was
:05:11. > :05:17.important to develop this culture that was absent during the previous
:05:17. > :05:20.years. The President invited people for dialogue and said he would go to
:05:20. > :05:22.them and have dialogue for the future of the ditch. It was an
:05:22. > :05:28.invitation to all of Egyptians, not invitation to all of Egyptians, not
:05:28. > :05:32.a military coup. But the military coup that imprison thousands of
:05:32. > :05:37.people for nothing but their political actions. We are still just
:05:38. > :05:45.looking at the event of up to this. The point and try to make is that
:05:45. > :05:47.the Muslim Brotherhood used that 52% to not run an inclusive government.
:05:47. > :05:55.David Cameron said after the removal, yes, he has a democratic
:05:55. > :05:57.mandate, but democracy also means ensuring that everybody has Arab
:05:57. > :06:03.leaders are responsive to concerns. boys —— has a voice and
:06:03. > :06:05.leaders are responsive to concerns. The numbers of ministers in the
:06:05. > :06:11.Egyptian government under President Morsi, the number of ministers is
:06:11. > :06:16.38. How many of them were from the party? No more than 11. Look at the
:06:16. > :06:25.governors in the country. How many were that? 27, no more than 13 were
:06:25. > :06:26.members. You mention the governors, unit Mohamed Morsi created a great
:06:26. > :06:30.deal of controversy when he deal of controversy when he
:06:30. > :06:33.nominated the Minister of Luxor. He nominated the Minister of Luxor. He
:06:33. > :06:36.was part of a party was part of a party that was
:06:36. > :06:42.responsible for the killing of tourists in 1997. This is a man
:06:42. > :06:49.appointed to run Luxor? He was not part of the crime. He was forced to
:06:49. > :06:54.step down, is that the Kennett person's for Mohamed Morsi to
:06:54. > :06:57.bring's there is to be violent groups, he brought them into the
:06:57. > :07:01.process. He should be thanked for it. He wanted to prove that the
:07:01. > :07:05.Islamic group is changing its Islamic group is changing its
:07:05. > :07:12.ideology and is willing to welcome tourists. This is a city that is
:07:12. > :07:14.dependent on tourism, and you bring in a man who was a member of a
:07:14. > :07:18.party, I am not saying he party, I am not saying he was
:07:18. > :07:23.responsible, but the party was responsible for killing tourists.
:07:23. > :07:27.People change. He was under pressure and he steps down. The point a
:07:27. > :07:32.making is, when Mohamed Morsi was removed, it did not provoke the
:07:32. > :07:38.outcry that you might have hoped and expected, precisely because people
:07:38. > :07:41.are not thinking was running an inclusive government. The UN foreign
:07:41. > :07:44.policy chipset I hope the new inclusive government. The UN foreign
:07:44. > :07:48.policy chipset I hope the new administration will be completely
:07:49. > :07:58.inclusive and respect fundamental rights, freedoms and rule of law and
:07:58. > :08:03.halt authorities to account. This is very unfortunate as a statesman. You
:08:03. > :08:10.can not replace democracy through a coup. A coup is against democracy.
:08:10. > :08:12.Show me a coup in the world that supported democracy. President Mossi
:08:12. > :08:19.removed through democratic process. supported the people. If
:08:19. > :08:23.removed through democratic process. Seeing that there were millions
:08:23. > :08:26.against them, this is only one perspective. We need to look
:08:26. > :08:37.day and every night protesting the other. There
:08:37. > :08:41.day and every night protesting the crew. We will never go back to the
:08:41. > :08:45.old regime, we will never accept a police state. It is a crime against
:08:45. > :08:50.is, a crime against the will of the is, a crime against the will of the
:08:50. > :08:54.Egyptian people. Mohamed Morsi and his people were polarising the
:08:54. > :08:59.differences of the people. When differences of the people. When he
:08:59. > :09:04.was alerted to this fact, he did not listen. He did not try to change
:09:04. > :09:09.things. It is almost the opposite, the country was polarised. The
:09:09. > :09:12.country came to be polarised right after the revolution. That is fine.
:09:12. > :09:18.Healthy polarisation is fine so that Healthy polarisation is fine so that
:09:18. > :09:22.democracy, which had not have the culture of democracy, now we have
:09:22. > :09:28.it, we are polarised. We can move forward to democracy. The only way
:09:28. > :09:33.is dialogue, not a coup. A queue is not an alternative. You have made
:09:33. > :09:38.mistakes in the lead up to the removal of Mohamed Morsi. For
:09:38. > :09:46.example, the former Egyptian Foreign Minister and former head of the Arab
:09:46. > :09:56.league said he was going to have a meeting with a senior leader of the
:09:56. > :10:03.Muslim Brotherhood in Cairo. He said, look, will have a conversation
:10:03. > :10:07.of lessons, they disagreed on some of lessons, they disagreed on some
:10:07. > :10:09.the impression that they were not in the impression
:10:09. > :10:13.the mood for changing. That is his the mood for changing. That is his
:10:13. > :10:23.perspective of what was said. the mood for changing. That is his
:10:23. > :10:23.was a month before Mohamed Morsi was removed? We are talking about the
:10:23. > :10:28.elected President. If people want to elected President. If people want to
:10:28. > :10:32.talk to him, they should talk to the president. He is a powerful man in
:10:32. > :10:35.the Muslim Brotherhood. He is not the President. He was speaking on
:10:35. > :10:39.behalf of the movement. We make a behalf of the movement. We make
:10:39. > :10:45.distinction... Why didn't you listen distinction... Why didn't you listen
:10:45. > :10:46.to what was being said? The maker movement between the movement, the
:10:46. > :10:53.presidency and the party. There are presidency and the party. There are
:10:53. > :10:55.times for national dialogue. You talk to groups of people, he was
:10:55. > :11:00.when to go to them, rather than them when to go to them, rather than them
:11:00. > :11:04.coming to us. The importance of dialogue and the willingness to be
:11:04. > :11:13.able to come to a compromise with other parties. He was called the new
:11:14. > :11:18.pharaoh. We had dialogue is's influential people saying this was
:11:18. > :11:21.the new Ferro. He left the country, look at what he did after. Because
:11:22. > :11:30.of the coup. We have to look at from a comparative perspective. Let
:11:30. > :11:33.us compare what happened in the first year. In the first year, we
:11:33. > :11:39.feel the sense of belonging. We feel the sense of belonging. We have
:11:39. > :11:41.the freedom to move around and discuss things were the people who
:11:41. > :11:45.do not have the chance to discuss their political future before. We
:11:45. > :11:51.had a great year. You squandered the year. It was the forces of the ex—
:11:51. > :12:01.regime. Those remnants of the old regime, it was an alliance between
:12:01. > :12:10.the military, the ex— regime... You could have brushed them away, you
:12:10. > :12:14.work with them. We wanted to reform state bureaucracy, we had
:12:14. > :12:20.corruption. That is why we had a revolution. He did not work with
:12:20. > :12:24.them. The body charged with drying up a new constitution, or the non—
:12:24. > :12:29.Islamist members left. They did not Islamist members left. They did not
:12:29. > :12:33.want to stay with you because they thought you were monopolising the
:12:33. > :12:36.working relations with them. We have working relations with them. We have
:12:36. > :12:45.a six—month period. They only walked drafted the Constitution together.
:12:45. > :12:49.Most of the articles came from the Liberal size and the other side. The
:12:49. > :12:53.Constitution was presented to the Egyptian people. 60% of those voted
:12:53. > :13:02.for the Constitution. Egyptian people. 60% of those voted
:13:02. > :13:08.to come and get rid of it? What was the turnout? It was 30%. In a
:13:08. > :13:12.democracy, he would invite people to vote. Those who come are welcome. It
:13:12. > :13:19.had a mandate that 33% of the had a mandate that 33% of the
:13:19. > :13:23.electorate gives you a mandate to radically change the Constitution?
:13:23. > :13:27.There is a mechanism in the There is a mechanism in the
:13:27. > :13:31.Constitution that it can be changed again and again. That is why wanted
:13:31. > :13:34.the election to go forward, so that the will of the people can be
:13:34. > :13:42.represented and Parliament can change any article in the
:13:42. > :13:44.Morsi was accused of being Morsi was accused of being
:13:44. > :13:51.authoritarian, allowing greater powers for himself, including in
:13:51. > :14:00.unity from prosecution. And people said, look, this is a man who we
:14:00. > :14:03.cannot trust. Who are those people? Those are his political opponents.
:14:03. > :14:10.expected, —— respected, but let us expected, —— respected, but let us
:14:10. > :14:14.not believe just what we are told. Mohamed Morsi did not do anything
:14:14. > :14:20.for his own sake. He wanted to protect Egyptian democracy. We had
:14:20. > :14:24.corrupt people and he wanted to protect the will of the people. The
:14:24. > :14:27.committee writes the Egyptian committee
:14:27. > :14:37.constitution. Look at what happens, constitution. Look at what happens,
:14:37. > :14:41.who write the constitution. They are who write the constitution. They
:14:41. > :14:49.not inclusive of... The Islamist not inclusive of... The Islamist
:14:49. > :14:56.the Egyptian people to the respect the Egyptian people to the respect
:14:56. > :15:00.that. I put it to you that you do say the will of the Egyptian
:15:00. > :15:03.people, and yes, he did win the majority, and there was still a
:15:04. > :15:11.large number of people who did not support him and the mandate... Did
:15:11. > :15:15.we wait for another election? We did not only win that election, we've
:15:15. > :15:24.won four more elections and two referenda. How many seats in the
:15:24. > :15:31.parliament? 47%. That is not, again, a huge mandate. That is why it is
:15:31. > :15:33.good enough for us to be able to compromise with other people in the
:15:33. > :15:36.parliament to come up with parliament to come up with a
:15:36. > :15:40.government that represents a large number of people. We really wanted
:15:40. > :15:46.every Egyptian to participate in this process so it became
:15:46. > :15:51.successful. This is an Egyptian revolution. This is not the
:15:51. > :15:54.another, it's for all Egyptians. another, it's for all Egyptians.
:15:54. > :15:59.They participate and they have the right to share the power and the
:15:59. > :16:08.good results of the revolution. It was this issue of the Muslim
:16:08. > :16:10.Brotherhood and people did not trust the Freedom and Justice Party or the
:16:10. > :16:16.Muslim Brotherhood. For example, initially, they said they would not
:16:16. > :16:25.field a candidate for president. And then they did field a candidate
:16:25. > :16:29.under the FJ P, who then made way for Mohamed Morsi. They say you
:16:29. > :16:34.misled the party wants —— misled the people once, why not again? We did
:16:35. > :16:38.not mislead the people but the political situation change. We did
:16:38. > :16:41.not want another prime minister not want another prime minister from
:16:41. > :16:50.the mob are raging to come and control the country. —— Mubarak
:16:50. > :17:00.the solution in this Parliament... contest the presidency and then
:17:00. > :17:07.the solution in this Parliament... This told us that there was
:17:07. > :17:09.collusion between the executive branch and the military against the
:17:09. > :17:12.interest of the Egyptian people. Millions of people went to a free
:17:12. > :17:14.and fair election for the first time and fair election for the first time
:17:14. > :17:27.in their lives. The clue is not the in their lives. The clue is not the
:17:27. > :17:31.answer. —— coup. The head of the Army is incredibly popular.
:17:31. > :17:44.Bridesmaids wear dresses with his image on it. His face is on Kate 's.
:17:44. > :17:54.—— cake. They are cooling for him to run in the next election. With the
:17:54. > :17:56.Egyptian media as it is in place, I can guarantee that even if you went
:17:56. > :18:00.to Egypt, you would have the to Egypt, you would have the
:18:00. > :18:07.popularity to run for office. Hitler was very popular. I don't think you
:18:07. > :18:14.can compare add of Hitler to abduct factor of CC in Egypt. This is about
:18:14. > :18:21.the future of democracy in Egypt. Do we want another dictatorship? Do we
:18:21. > :18:30.want another military? He does not say he is going to run. There are
:18:30. > :18:34.people who are urging too. People in the media. Amr Moussa, those people,
:18:34. > :18:39.Amr Moussa has said no one is Amr Moussa has said no one is
:18:39. > :18:43.talking about the return of the old talking about the return of the old
:18:43. > :18:45.regime. We cannot predict who will win, be that as it may. We should
:18:45. > :18:51.look at the number of ministers look at the number of ministers from
:18:52. > :18:53.the old regime. 19 governors are military generals. That is the old
:18:53. > :18:59.regime. regime. It is his regime, his
:18:59. > :19:05.policy, which is against the will of the Egyptian people. The prime
:19:05. > :19:17.minister says the Muslim Brotherhood will not be banned. What do you
:19:17. > :19:18.think is going to happen? The Muslim Brotherhood did not come from the
:19:18. > :19:27.top down, it came from the bottom of society. It changes one person at
:19:27. > :19:28.one time. We want this to continue, for the constitution that was voted
:19:28. > :19:37.publish his own newspaper, for for by the
:19:37. > :19:40.publish his own newspaper, for everyone to participate. This is
:19:40. > :19:45.what we have done in the past, this is what we want to do in the future.
:19:45. > :19:49.You have not heard if you will be banned? If the coup government does
:19:49. > :19:53.this, that is not what this, that is not what we are
:19:53. > :19:58.concerned about. Mohamed Morsi did not come to power by a tank, but by
:19:58. > :20:04.a popular vote that was ruled as free and fair by international
:20:04. > :20:09.observers. You are now being written out of the script. You are not part
:20:09. > :20:12.of the body that is drawing up the constitution. The religious affairs
:20:12. > :20:15.minister has drawn up new rules minister has drawn up new rules this
:20:15. > :20:19.week saying week saying that Al—Azhar
:20:19. > :20:23.University, which is the great thinking University of Sunni Islam,
:20:23. > :20:26.that preachers have got to be that preachers have got to be
:20:26. > :20:29.approved by Al—Azhar University, approved by Al—Azhar University,
:20:29. > :20:34.that mosques across Egypt cannot get funds from individual donations,
:20:34. > :20:39.that they will be funded centrally, that preachers will be rotated, the
:20:40. > :20:44.idea that the government has this is an attempt by the state to dominate
:20:44. > :20:49.and control mosques in order to prevent Islamist is from using them
:20:49. > :20:50.for recruitment and mobilisation. Not Islamists but the Egyptian
:20:50. > :20:59.people. Your movement.Not necessarily our movement. This is
:20:59. > :21:04.freedom of speech. It has to be guaranteed. We should not allow any
:21:04. > :21:09.form of theocracy. I am worried about theocracy and the use of the
:21:09. > :21:13.military to control the movement, the freedom of expression in the
:21:13. > :21:15.country and the freedom of movement. Millions of people go to mosques. If
:21:15. > :21:21.you can control that, you have a you can control that,
:21:21. > :21:23.control mentality. They want to make sure that the mosques do not become,
:21:23. > :21:28.as this man and others have said, that Islamic thought in Egypt will
:21:28. > :21:38.be unified behind Brotherhood. White —— no. That is
:21:38. > :21:39.what they are doing without banning the Muslim Brotherhood, they are
:21:39. > :21:52.trying to get control. The word unified is dangerous because it
:21:53. > :21:55.means people think alike. This man says that this means radicalism and
:21:55. > :21:58.mosques and the Islamic thought of mosques and the Islamic thought of
:21:58. > :22:03.Egypt can be unified. There is no extremism. Mohammed Ibrahim, the
:22:03. > :22:09.information minister, faced an assassination attempt. I wonder why
:22:09. > :22:16.until now we have not talked about the 5000 people killed by the
:22:16. > :22:17.military? That's a high figure because the figure is more like
:22:17. > :22:25.2000. It was 2000 at the mosque, I 2000. It was 2000 at the mosque, I
:22:25. > :22:28.am talking about the rest of the country. No one denies that Muslim
:22:28. > :22:31.Brotherhood supporters have been killed. We condemn all forms of
:22:31. > :22:37.violence, whether it is against violence, whether it is against the
:22:37. > :22:40.information minister or anyone. That indicates, doesn't it, that
:22:40. > :22:47.disgruntled members of Islamist movements might be pushed towards
:22:47. > :22:49.extremism? Never. Not at all. We are a sociopolitical movement for 80
:22:49. > :22:55.years and we have never moved to violence. In July, members of the
:22:55. > :22:58.Muslim Brotherhood broke away and they said they would join
:22:58. > :23:01.brotherhood without violence, a new organisation, which would in life
:23:01. > :23:05.that there is violence in the that there is violence in the
:23:05. > :23:11.brotherhood. It is by default a non—violent organisation. Two
:23:11. > :23:17.weeks, now, we have been in the streets without violence. But there
:23:17. > :23:21.is not part of our ideology or our is not part of our ideology or our
:23:21. > :23:23.pragmatism. We are is not part of our ideology or our
:23:23. > :23:33.reinstated? Yellow mat not because you do? You
:23:33. > :23:37.reinstated? Yellow mat not because of us but because he represents the
:23:37. > :23:40.will of the Egyptian people. We will of the Egyptian people. We want
:23:40. > :23:45.a parliament that was elected by the people of Egypt... You think you
:23:45. > :23:51.will get all that? This is what we want. We will try to get it. We are
:23:51. > :23:54.not the only ones in the streets full up there are 30 political
:23:54. > :24:00.movements with us and they will continue to fight
:24:00. > :24:07.Thank you for being on the Thank you for being on the
:24:07. > :24:12.programme. Thank you.