:00:14. > :00:22.Welcome to HARDtalk. Those who think the worst of the risen Christ is is
:00:22. > :00:27.happening in Greece. Public sector job cuts at prompted a new wave
:00:27. > :00:41.extremist violence threatened the strikes. A bailout seems likely
:00:41. > :00:41.is Greece's controversial health Minister. Adonis Georgiadis. Is
:00:41. > :01:19.Minister, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank Minister. Adonis Georgiadis. Is
:01:19. > :01:24.Minister, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank optimists want to believe that
:01:24. > :01:34.Greece has turned the corner in these last couple of years. It is
:01:34. > :01:39.not true, is it? It is not only true, we are totally turning a
:01:39. > :01:49.are clearly an optimist. But if true, we are totally turning a
:01:49. > :01:53.particularly the crucial figure about Greece's burden of national
:01:53. > :02:03.debt, the latest figures show that it now stands at well over 300
:02:03. > :02:06.billion euros. Well over 160% of GDP. That is not sustainable. What
:02:06. > :02:21.happened, when the crash began, GDP. That is not sustainable. What
:02:21. > :02:30.billion. But we have saved the banks. Secondly, if we did not have
:02:30. > :02:37.this programme, we would be over 500 billion euros. What we consider
:02:37. > :02:37.this programme, we would be over 500 that we are already 200 billion
:02:37. > :02:42.euros less than we should be at that we are already 200 billion
:02:42. > :02:49.period of time. If we do our job and keep our agreement, then we will
:02:49. > :02:51.keep our agreement and we will deliver the European partners what
:02:51. > :03:11.we promised. They will keep their deliver the European partners what
:03:11. > :03:12.already had two bailouts from the EU and the IMF. Certain elements of the
:03:12. > :03:19.agreement have not been kept. For and the IMF. Certain elements of the
:03:19. > :03:21.example, on privatisation. He said he would raise 20 billion euros
:03:21. > :03:21.example, on privatisation. He said privatisation. So far you have
:03:21. > :03:28.raised 3.5 billion. It was out of privatisation. So far you have
:03:28. > :03:32.raised 3.5 billion. It was out of business from the beginning. I said
:03:32. > :03:41.publicly that we could not gather 50 billion euros. But this is not the
:03:41. > :03:43.main problem of the economy. The main problem is to spend less money
:03:43. > :03:54.for the first year after almost main problem is to spend less money
:03:54. > :04:02.decade, Greece will spend less money than it should have. This is a clear
:04:02. > :04:10.and good message that the economy is starting to turn over. You are
:04:10. > :04:23.bookkeeping is rather rose tinted. burden, your claim that you have
:04:23. > :04:27.you say that you're going to keep your promises, that says you are
:04:27. > :04:31.committing yet another round of drastic public sector job cuts.
:04:31. > :04:36.committing yet another round of you have said that he will resign if
:04:37. > :04:42.one health sector worker loses their job. I am struggling to see how
:04:42. > :04:42.one health sector worker loses their are keeping the promises. Let us
:04:42. > :04:48.take it one by one. Our promise are keeping the promises. Let us
:04:48. > :04:51.not to have more money totally in our budget, but more money for our
:04:51. > :04:53.own expenses. This is a different figure. Everybody knows that the
:04:53. > :04:59.debt is huge. Nobody would believe figure. Everybody knows that the
:04:59. > :05:05.we needed. But what our European that we could bring more money
:05:05. > :05:07.we needed. But what our European partners wanted was to see that
:05:07. > :05:11.we needed. But what our European the first time after many years
:05:11. > :05:15.Greece would not produce new debt. This is happening for the first
:05:15. > :05:20.time. Our friends in Europe know that the Greek people made a great
:05:20. > :05:44.to you, in the health sector we sacrifice. We did not produce any
:05:44. > :05:50.to you, in the health sector we business in firing people from the
:05:50. > :05:54.health. The problem is that if everyone of your around the Cabinet
:05:54. > :06:04.table takes the same attitude, you will never slimmed down the state in
:06:04. > :06:08.demanded. If I were not Minister of health and if I were Minister in
:06:08. > :06:10.another office, I would have two fires of people. It is a private
:06:10. > :06:20.companies. This is happening to fires of people. It is a private
:06:20. > :06:25.BBC, it is happening to Apple, it is happening to all the businesses
:06:25. > :06:29.BBC, it is happening to Apple, it is the world. It is not such a problem.
:06:29. > :06:32.It is a problem for the people losing their jobs. We know that
:06:32. > :06:36.It is a problem for the people Greek public—sector workers are
:06:36. > :06:40.It is a problem for the people strike yet again. The high school
:06:40. > :06:50.service is going on strike this problem. The public is not prepared
:06:50. > :06:57.to take any more austerity. The teachers, the percentage of the
:06:57. > :07:10.people who strike were 80% of the first day and today it was less
:07:10. > :07:11.people who strike were 80% of the Practically nobody was in a strike.
:07:11. > :07:25.austerity measures. But this is Our society is under Apec pressure.
:07:25. > :07:26.austerity measures. But this is something that was really amazing,
:07:26. > :07:37.more trouble. Everybody wants to something that was really amazing,
:07:37. > :07:38.more trouble. Everybody wants to understands that the money coming
:07:38. > :07:55.seems to be that you will need understands that the money coming
:07:55. > :07:56.the short term, some people think it will be more in the long—term. But
:07:56. > :08:00.for the troika to deliver that, will be more in the long—term. But
:08:00. > :08:03.are clearly going to ask for new austerity measures. There is talk of
:08:03. > :08:17.you having to eliminate the state defence altogether. There is also
:08:17. > :08:22.talk of having to foreclose on people behind on their mortgages.
:08:22. > :08:29.Are you prepared to take that step? Yesterday I met with the troika
:08:29. > :08:34.Are you prepared to take that step? discussion on the economy. I said we
:08:34. > :08:41.could not take any more horizontal austerity measures. Society would
:08:41. > :08:45.not tolerate them. I am totally convinced that they will not ask
:08:45. > :08:50.horizontal austerity measures. What they want to see is greater progress
:08:50. > :08:58.of reforms. Minister, I am sure they want to see is greater progress
:08:58. > :09:03.you have watched what has happened in Germany likely. Angela Merkel,
:09:03. > :09:10.says there will be absolutely no change in Germany policy towards the
:09:10. > :09:15.bailouts. That means the Germans are still going to be demanding of
:09:15. > :09:18.Greece. I will just grow to you still going to be demanding of
:09:18. > :09:23.words of your former party leader when you are in a more right—wing
:09:23. > :09:38.show his feelings? Of course not. party. He said that we can survive
:09:38. > :09:42.show his feelings? Of course not. That is why I left the party. What
:09:42. > :09:47.he said is nonsense. Angela Merkel and the German people are friends of
:09:47. > :09:50.Greece. They have given us the last three years more than 60 billion
:09:50. > :09:53.euros. Nobody else has given us British people have. But you did
:09:53. > :10:00.money. I would like to say that taxpayers why she has given so much
:10:00. > :10:12.not. We understand Angela Merkel. taxpayers why she has given so much
:10:12. > :10:19.distant people and we will always pay our debt. We will give our money
:10:19. > :10:24.back to the German people and we can. This will make our friendship
:10:24. > :10:31.stronger. We have no doubt about that. They believe that Greece would
:10:31. > :10:36.be bankrupt and they would lose their money. I have to say to the
:10:37. > :10:40.British people, they have to be totally sure that Greece is and
:10:40. > :10:41.British people, they have to be still be a member of the Rose and
:10:41. > :10:53.for the decades that will come. still be a member of the Rose and
:10:53. > :10:58.more public sector jobs by the end of the year. We know that your own
:10:58. > :11:03.health Ministry is in the process of downsizing a significant number
:11:03. > :11:08.health Ministry is in the process of hospitals in cities like Athens
:11:08. > :11:13.health Ministry is in the process of the Salonika. How much more do you
:11:13. > :11:16.believe you can take this process? Before the fabric of the quick
:11:16. > :11:26.economy and the social services begins to collapse? —— Greek. I
:11:26. > :11:26.economy and the social services speaking to an expert from Britain.
:11:26. > :11:36.He said that all the programmes speaking to an expert from Britain.
:11:36. > :11:39.the hospitals were the same as those in Great Britain in the 1980s. I
:11:39. > :11:53.remember Margaret Thatcher did that. in Great Britain in the 1980s. I
:11:53. > :12:17.will finish in two weeks. Not even the 80s. It is not a big deal.
:12:17. > :12:38.collapse. You are the Minister What have seen the suicide rate doubled
:12:38. > :12:44.since the beginning of the crisis. There are many different indicators
:12:44. > :12:51.that suggest your people are not feeling well being. They are feeling
:12:51. > :12:55.increasingly sickened by austerity. I will not pretend that the times
:12:55. > :13:09.are reasonable. They are difficult. austerity measures. It is a very
:13:09. > :13:11.hard time. All of these problems are not only from the crisis. I will
:13:11. > :13:19.have an increase of HIV. But it not only from the crisis. I will
:13:19. > :13:31.increased not only from the economic crisis, but through many people
:13:31. > :13:33.increased not only from the economic came illegally to Greece. Greece is
:13:33. > :13:40.in an area where everyone can enter Europe through Greece. This has
:13:40. > :13:44.nothing to do with the economic crisis. It is a public problem.
:13:44. > :13:48.nothing to do with the economic truth is, we have problems but for
:13:48. > :13:55.country. We believe that in a couple the first time we have hope in this
:13:55. > :13:55.country. We believe that in a couple of months we will see some great
:13:55. > :14:04.progress in Greek society. Let us of months we will see some great
:14:04. > :14:07.progress in Greek society. Let us stick with HIV. Which you have
:14:07. > :14:09.raised. Why was your first decision to reinstate a law which had been
:14:09. > :14:24.people in your country? A hope —— a suspended with allow the police
:14:24. > :14:25.people in your country? A hope —— a whole host of groups have condemned
:14:25. > :14:34.medical ethics. —— HIV—AIDS. What I that as a fundamental challenge
:14:34. > :14:37.medical ethics. —— HIV—AIDS. What I did, I put the law again on track. I
:14:37. > :14:40.called into the offers all of the people for human rights and all
:14:40. > :14:43.called into the offers all of the the people in the medical ward to
:14:43. > :14:45.discuss the new law and we are now putting before Parliament a new
:14:45. > :14:49.discuss the new law and we are now that says that the police can make
:14:49. > :14:57.it easy examination is because many people in Athens are worried but
:14:57. > :15:01.think that with this court order, we can respect the human rights of
:15:01. > :15:05.think that with this court order, we these people that may be infected by
:15:05. > :15:09.HIV or other diseases but at the same time, we will protect our
:15:09. > :15:15.population from a very grave danger. Let us be blunt and honest. It was a
:15:15. > :15:19.populist measure you talk which essentially stigmatises some of
:15:19. > :15:21.populist measure you talk which most vulnerable people living in
:15:21. > :15:25.Greece today. It has been condemned by Amnesty International, by Human
:15:25. > :15:34.Rights Watch, by doctors of the World, even by the medical journal
:15:34. > :15:41.as being fundamentally antithetical to medical ethics. It has already
:15:41. > :15:48.been changed by a new law that says now that we have to have a court
:15:48. > :15:51.examinations from the police. Nobody felt that we did not respect the
:15:51. > :15:58.concerns of all the people you felt that we did not respect the
:15:58. > :16:01.concerns of all the people you mentioned before, in the real world,
:16:01. > :16:03.they did not have anything to do. I have to ask you another question.
:16:03. > :16:09.all the other people, the majority have to ask you another question.
:16:09. > :16:09.all the other people, the majority of the population, that they work
:16:09. > :16:15.there and live in the centre of of the population, that they work
:16:15. > :16:15.there and live in the centre of minister, I have to respect the
:16:15. > :16:29.have to respect the human rights of minister, I have to respect the
:16:29. > :16:45.worrying issue of extremism in your middle. This new law will be on
:16:45. > :16:46.worrying issue of extremism in your brutally murdered. Since then, your
:16:46. > :16:53.those responsible for his killing brutally murdered. Since then, your
:16:53. > :16:55.those responsible for his killing as, and I quote, "the descendants of
:16:55. > :17:02.the Nazis." How could you about as, and I quote, "the descendants of
:17:02. > :17:06.rise of violent extremism in Greece the truth is that I am concerned.
:17:06. > :17:16.The truth is that this crisis gave birth to a real monster. Golden
:17:16. > :17:17.The truth is that this crisis gave democracy and everyone in Greece
:17:17. > :17:24.understand that we cannot tolerate Nazism. What our government is doing
:17:24. > :17:30.political system, we try to find measures to stop them by polluting
:17:30. > :17:34.our society with hate. Many people in Greece have lost their jobs.
:17:34. > :17:37.our society with hate. Many people people in Greece are furious about
:17:37. > :17:41.the system. Many people in Greece have lost hope about our democracy
:17:41. > :17:47.and we have to gain them back. It will not be an easy task at we are
:17:47. > :17:50.determined to do it. Let us talk about the allegations that we have
:17:50. > :17:55.seen in the press in recent days that there are connections between
:17:55. > :18:01.activists in Golden Dawn, the very far right grouping, and elements
:18:01. > :18:07.within the police and the security forces. Do you believe that to be
:18:07. > :18:15.I believe that at some points, it is I believe that at some points, it is
:18:15. > :18:18.true. I understand that some people in the police were not Nazis or
:18:18. > :18:19.something like that but they felt a little bit sympathetic to this
:18:19. > :18:30.understood how dangerous the party party. I believe it was because
:18:30. > :18:32.understood how dangerous the party was. What our government did, Alan
:18:32. > :18:37.Minister took a very tough decision and a very fast decision. —— Power
:18:38. > :18:44.Minister. That our democracy would not tolerate Golden Dawn. Golden
:18:44. > :18:52.and we will do it. You say that Dawn is not the far right. It is a
:18:52. > :18:54.and we will do it. You say that clearly to me and yet you sit in a
:18:54. > :19:03.significant number of MPs. If they Parliament where Golden Dawn has a
:19:03. > :19:04.significant number of MPs. If they are what you say they are, Nazis,
:19:04. > :19:08.and other members of your government have described it as a criminal
:19:08. > :19:11.alongside them in the Parliament? What do you propose? To beat them
:19:11. > :19:17.out? I would suggest that many people watching this would suggest
:19:17. > :19:21.that you render them illegal. It is not an easy way to do it. First
:19:21. > :19:27.that you render them illegal. It is all, our Constitution does not
:19:27. > :19:33.permit that. As you know... Your own Deputy Prime Minister has described
:19:33. > :19:37.organisation! How can you have a criminal organisation sitting in
:19:37. > :19:42.your Parliament? Betsy, we say that it is a criminal organisation but in
:19:42. > :19:48.order to be banished, a court might this —— must decide that they are
:19:48. > :19:54.understand that we are still a What we did as the government is
:19:54. > :19:58.that we put them in the court and the court will decide if they are a
:19:58. > :20:01.criminal organisation. If the court said that they are, then they will
:20:02. > :20:08.be out of Parliament. But this are not a tyranny. We are not a
:20:08. > :20:12.dictatorship and the Prime Minister cannot decide by himself. We must
:20:12. > :20:20.respect the Constitution and our acceptable that the state continues
:20:20. > :20:24.to provide funding for Golden Dawn as, right now, one of the biggest
:20:24. > :20:28.parties in Greece, the third biggest party in Greece by some measures?
:20:28. > :20:30.State funding for them is still acceptable in your view? There is
:20:30. > :20:40.already a proposal from the Minister for interior affairs to take the
:20:40. > :20:51.in a difficult position, speaking think that this will happen. We
:20:51. > :20:51.in a difficult position, speaking against extremists in Golden Dawn
:20:51. > :21:07.people from the far left say that against extremists in Golden Dawn
:21:07. > :21:13.these years and know that I was for me as an accusation. All of
:21:13. > :21:16.these years and know that I was never even sympathetic to these
:21:16. > :21:20.ideas. This is the reason that the people from Golden Dawn had hit
:21:20. > :21:20.ideas. This is the reason that the twice in the past and hate me even
:21:20. > :21:26.more than anyone else. They may twice in the past and hate me even
:21:26. > :21:30.that you have betrayed value that you want presented? You cannot deny
:21:30. > :21:35.that you were once a member of the Allows political party for a long
:21:35. > :21:39.time, and the leader of which was known as an anti—immigrant speaker?
:21:39. > :21:45.There are many quotes to back that up. For example, in 2000, he said
:21:45. > :21:51."we are the only wheel bricks, not communists. " He was the party
:21:51. > :21:56.leader to whom you gave your loyalty for eight or nine years. —— the
:21:56. > :21:56.leader to whom you gave your loyalty real Greeks. The people from Golden
:21:56. > :22:00.Dawn had hit on me twice. Twice real Greeks. The people from Golden
:22:00. > :22:11.was look the member of the last party. Not because I betrayed the
:22:11. > :22:17.They had hit on me as a member of the Laos party. That was not a Nazi
:22:17. > :22:18.party. In 2000, they did not exist. He was a Member of Parliament with
:22:18. > :22:24.new democracy. His party in the He was a Member of Parliament with
:22:24. > :22:30.I was there, never said anything anti—Semitic and me personally,
:22:30. > :22:32.I was there, never said anything anti—Semitic in my life. Minister,
:22:33. > :22:36.you must appreciate the difficulty. extraordinary concerned about the
:22:36. > :22:41.rise of what you have described extraordinary concerned about the
:22:41. > :22:43.Nazi element in your country. You stand accused by the Central board
:22:43. > :22:50.of Jewish communities in Greece stand accused by the Central board
:22:50. > :22:55.insulting, anti—Jewish views. That is a direct quote from the Jewish
:22:55. > :23:00.organisation. You have a problem. No, no. You can call the president
:23:00. > :23:15.questions you do now. You can read For two months, he was asked by
:23:15. > :23:16.questions you do now. You can read what the Jewish president of the
:23:16. > :23:18.Jewish committee said and read it to what the Jewish president of the
:23:18. > :23:31.extremists. How do you believe that your people that are now watching.
:23:31. > :23:36.extremists. How do you believe that your government is going to overcome
:23:36. > :23:43.it? I believe that since we exited started solving the problem of the
:23:43. > :23:52.people, we will be able to defend our democracy, extremism. The real
:23:52. > :23:58.democracy. And more hope and believe that democracy is for the people. It
:23:58. > :24:04.more democracy produces another significant result for Golden Dawn
:24:04. > :24:08.elections, I use an me that they are, in future, will not be allowed
:24:08. > :24:11.to be represented in the Greek Parliament? —— are you saying to
:24:11. > :24:16.me. That there are time is over Parliament? —— are you saying to
:24:16. > :24:18.Greek democracy? Lynn Win Nye I Parliament? —— are you saying to
:24:18. > :24:21.totally sure that our democracy Parliament? —— are you saying to
:24:21. > :24:28.is ready to defend herself from Golden Dawn. —— I'm totally sure.
:24:28. > :24:29.Adonis Georgiadis, thank you very much for being on HARDtalk. Thank