:00:00. > :00:26.in Britons suggests public faith in plummeted in the last decade. Why? A
:00:26. > :00:31.lot of powerful reasons lying on the pages of a dark political memoir
:00:31. > :00:36.written by my guests today. Damian McBride was the spin doctor for
:00:36. > :00:45.former British prime minister Gordon leaks and a host of dirty tricks to
:00:45. > :00:52.serve his master's interests and undermine his enemies. In the past,
:00:52. > :01:28.Damian McBride never let the truth stand in his way. So what about
:01:28. > :01:34.HARDtalk. You disappeared from British politics in 2009. It is
:01:34. > :01:38.HARDtalk. You disappeared from to say it was in disgrace. You have
:01:38. > :01:41.now reappeared, revealing a great deal about a very sordid political
:01:41. > :01:48.you done that? During that period, life that you were living. Why have
:01:48. > :01:48.you done that? During that period, for around 1.5 years I had my tail
:01:48. > :01:54.between my legs. I guess wanted for around 1.5 years I had my tail
:01:54. > :02:02.disappear and start a new life. for around 1.5 years I had my tail
:02:02. > :02:12.they reconcile the person I am now interested in what I had done. The
:02:12. > :02:14.they reconcile the person I am now with what I did. In having that
:02:14. > :02:21.about it myself. They started to with what I did. In having that
:02:21. > :02:24.about it myself. They started to think about what I had been through.
:02:24. > :02:26.You had not thought about each and the time? You were telling me you
:02:26. > :02:31.never thought about it? I did not the time? You were telling me you
:02:31. > :02:34.never thought about it? I did not reflect on it. In the moment I would
:02:34. > :02:42.think about how it had gone. I did reflection, being outside of that
:02:42. > :02:48.life and not being able to justify it myself as politics. I did start
:02:48. > :02:56.out saying to people, that is just political life, they would say,
:02:56. > :02:59.out saying to people, that is just differently. I wanted to tell the
:02:59. > :03:03.story from that point of view. We look at the story in detail. A lot
:03:03. > :03:09.of people will not know what you did and why you did it. I want to be
:03:09. > :03:15.blunt, because your profession has been that over the years. It seems
:03:15. > :03:19.that you did this mostly for money. You have been desperately short
:03:19. > :03:22.that you did this mostly for money. money. We have written it in a way
:03:22. > :03:28.that is guaranteed you a lot of through serialisation rights, a
:03:28. > :03:31.that is guaranteed you a lot of of money. I came into this with
:03:31. > :03:36.that is guaranteed you a lot of expectations about generating money.
:03:36. > :03:47.I said I would generate the sales to publishers that I could expect to
:03:47. > :03:50.get somewhere between £20,000 and £30,000. You got much more than
:03:50. > :04:05.that? I received £100,000. That £30,000. You got much more than
:04:05. > :04:08.Party. How on earth can you take who professes loyalty to the Labor
:04:08. > :04:11.Party. How on earth can you take their money? When it comes down
:04:11. > :04:13.Party. How on earth can you take things, it is to the highest bidder.
:04:13. > :04:22.judgement if you want. Once you things, it is to the highest bidder.
:04:22. > :04:45.expecting a lot of money. It has a deal with the publisher, it said
:04:45. > :04:51.expecting a lot of money. It has done well. I have been taken by
:04:51. > :04:58.surprise as much as anyone. One understand it, the Catholic relief
:04:58. > :05:02.charity that you work for, that understand it, the Catholic relief
:05:02. > :05:08.wanted to give the money to from the royalties, they say they do not
:05:08. > :05:12.wanted to give the money to from the to touch it. They regard it as dirty
:05:12. > :05:17.because of the revelations you have delivered about the way you live to
:05:17. > :05:30.political life. That must be, at the understand it from their point of
:05:30. > :05:35.organisation. Many of the supporters had read what they read a did not
:05:35. > :05:39.want the charity associated with it. Many of them have voiced complaints
:05:39. > :05:46.about that. The charity, which is driven by supporters, said they
:05:47. > :05:53.about that. The charity, which is a distance. Does it make you feel
:05:53. > :05:58.so many of the supporters feel they do not want to take your money,
:05:58. > :06:00.so many of the supporters feel they their good causes, it must make
:06:00. > :06:02.so many of the supporters feel they feel that you have no future in
:06:02. > :06:10.so many of the supporters feel they organisation? From my point of view,
:06:10. > :06:10.that is a judgement based on what I did in the past. If this book is
:06:10. > :06:18.unacceptable, they do not want the money. Based on what I have done the
:06:18. > :06:30.separately. They say they are still money. Based on what I have done the
:06:30. > :06:34.reviewing your future employment in reviewing your future employment
:06:34. > :06:48.future. I will do my job every day the association. It sounds to me as
:06:48. > :06:50.future. I will do my job every day recognise that. We would get into
:06:50. > :06:57.politics operated around Gordon what you have revealed about the way
:06:57. > :06:58.politics operated around Gordon Brown and what you did. You launched
:06:59. > :07:01.the book to coincide with the Labour Party Conference. At the conference,
:07:02. > :07:07.people who read the extracts in Party Conference. At the conference,
:07:08. > :07:18.newspapers, former friends of yours unconscionable. Many of them former
:07:18. > :07:33.friends. Were you taken aback by their reaction? I say worse things
:07:33. > :07:46.conduct. The thing I was taken aback by, from a media point of view,
:07:46. > :07:48.conduct. The thing I was taken aback then to add to that with some over
:07:48. > :07:52.the top hysterical reactions, it did not help play down. You chose to go
:07:52. > :07:56.in that and make a big moisture not help play down. You chose to go
:07:56. > :08:02.that and make a big noise to Rio conference. You knew, because you
:08:02. > :08:07.are the master spinner, you knew it would cause an enormous destruction.
:08:07. > :08:11.These things always go both ways. You generate a story because there
:08:11. > :08:16.is some sense of conflict. If the reaction had been to play it down,
:08:16. > :08:19.as I did in different parts of my career, we would always try to play
:08:19. > :08:30.a book down, we did not want to addressing now is the content of the
:08:30. > :08:40.book. It is a litany of leaks, smears, dirty tricks. It is lies,
:08:40. > :08:44.told by you, to further the interest of your boss, Gordon Brown. Did
:08:44. > :08:49.told by you, to further the interest see yourself at the time as a serial
:08:49. > :09:06.the most part that I did not do liar? No, I was quite careful for
:09:06. > :09:11.the most part that I did not do do things in extreme. They give
:09:11. > :09:15.the most part that I did not do premiership is on a knife edge.
:09:15. > :09:17.the most part that I did not do amongst union delegates that if
:09:17. > :09:20.the most part that I did not do walked out there would be civil
:09:20. > :09:22.the most part that I did not do in the Labor Party. They way I did
:09:22. > :09:28.that was going around saying that David Miliband is saying this, those
:09:28. > :09:37.things are made up. I was only able established credibility. I can count
:09:37. > :09:39.on one hand over the years when journalist would render the day
:09:39. > :09:47.after I had done a story and say, mindset. You are quite conflicted
:09:47. > :09:52.about how you explain to yourself what you were doing. On one hand you
:09:52. > :09:58.say the whole system encourages politicians and their staff to
:09:58. > :10:05.greed, hypocrisy. You say you were sucked in. In a sense, you are
:10:05. > :10:09.blaming the system. At other times, you have been flat out honest,
:10:09. > :10:19.seeing that you told lies, you computer, I am much if it was with
:10:19. > :10:23.confidential information, you cast slanders and smears of various
:10:23. > :10:29.people. Which wasn't, was at the well—developed dark side before
:10:29. > :10:38.people. Which wasn't, was at the went anywhere near politics. A
:10:38. > :10:38.recognise that. I was already a function and alcoholic for a got
:10:38. > :10:42.anywhere near the political system. function and alcoholic for a got
:10:42. > :10:44.anywhere near the political system. The longer I was in politics, the
:10:44. > :10:58.but a dark side is an interesting worst may be heavy came. I recognise
:10:58. > :11:07.but a dark side is an interesting phrase. You were a bad person? I had
:11:07. > :11:08.but a dark side is an interesting see it as a form of combat between
:11:08. > :11:22.Gordon Brown's and Tony Blair's camp, it was dangerously corruptive
:11:22. > :11:25.key point. Were you a bad person with malign instincts? Do not think
:11:25. > :11:31.it is all I was, but I had that with malign instincts? Do not think
:11:31. > :11:38.to me. To the extent I did not care about some of the people I was
:11:38. > :11:45.affecting. Hurting in a very real way. Some people were collateral
:11:45. > :11:56.damage. They got hurt as a result of use to say to myself was, I was
:11:56. > :11:59.first by myself by seeing how was doing a lot of good work. I drove
:11:59. > :12:04.through a lot of reforms of the doing a lot of good work. I drove
:12:04. > :12:09.system which were intrinsically good. I would balance this in my own
:12:09. > :12:14.head, I would say I do good things and bad things, but it balances
:12:14. > :12:17.head, I would say I do good things I could not look back on any of
:12:17. > :12:19.head, I would say I do good things because of the bad things. For
:12:19. > :12:23.people who are not familiar with the record, some of the people you went
:12:23. > :12:32.after using all of these dirty tricks, including senior labour
:12:32. > :12:36.figures, he who cast aspersions about his past, drinking, Ivan
:12:36. > :12:48.Lewis, a junior minister who you taught a lesson because he tried to
:12:48. > :12:54.leaked allegations against you. stand up to you one. —— once. He
:12:54. > :12:54.leaked allegations against you. These stories alone. They give an
:12:54. > :13:00.indication of how low you went. These stories alone. They give an
:13:00. > :13:06.are going after enemies of Gordon Brown. Gordon Brown you wish you
:13:06. > :13:30.the mafia don. The mafia dons is not the mafia don. The mafia dons is not
:13:30. > :13:33.somebody. I never had orders to the mafia don. The mafia dons is not
:13:33. > :13:38.up these people. His attitude over the years was that he was a take out
:13:38. > :13:43.a rival, this book would have been stories full of taking on Alan
:13:43. > :13:53.Johnston. How often do you speak to Gordon Brown? Everyday. Several
:13:53. > :13:57.times a day. So when these keep moments happens, the press were
:13:57. > :14:02.times a day. So when these keep of stories, you obviously talked to
:14:02. > :14:08.him? The Ivan Lewis will stand out. That was very obvious that I was
:14:08. > :14:10.responsible. He knew you had done. It was obvious to a large number of
:14:10. > :14:17.people. They complain about that story. I like to his face. When
:14:17. > :14:21.people. They complain about that came back to base, having carried
:14:21. > :14:34.out the hit, whether it be on John Reid or Charles Clarke. Gordon Brown
:14:34. > :14:38.knew who was behind it. It was you. newspapers and then there would
:14:38. > :14:42.knew who was behind it. It was you. that kind of discussion. I did not
:14:42. > :14:48.come back and told Gordon... The issue is that they are not of moral
:14:48. > :15:00.practices you we using. It is now it is inconceivable that Gordon
:15:00. > :15:04.practices you we using. It is now terribly damaging to him that he is
:15:04. > :15:14.to resign, nobody has said that not coming out addressing the issue
:15:14. > :15:18.to resign, nobody has said that Gordon Brown and new... You should
:15:18. > :15:20.not have been in a job in 2009, frankly. When Gordon Brown realise
:15:20. > :15:32.the result. He liked the results of that this sort of practices you
:15:32. > :15:44.results of you destroying people who everything else I did. He liked
:15:44. > :15:47.results of you destroying people who would be his speech splashing in the
:15:47. > :15:51.Times and the Guardian. That is white I delivered. What I said in
:15:51. > :15:56.the book, or while there was a lot of criticism of me at the time,
:15:56. > :15:59.the book, or while there was a lot what stage was this post is a all
:15:59. > :16:04.that positive briefing you do, getting my story and the gender
:16:04. > :16:06.that positive briefing you do, in the media, you know, at what
:16:06. > :16:13.point should he say, I will give all complaints about the things you
:16:13. > :16:17.point should he say, I will give all been accused of but I do not know if
:16:17. > :16:25.you have done them not. Your version of logic — the people you work close
:16:25. > :16:30.to — they utterly deny having any inkling of what you were about
:16:30. > :16:39.whereas, other people quite clearly Milliband complained. There were
:16:39. > :16:43.people in the press who knew exactly what you are about. The only people
:16:43. > :16:52.who did not know where those closest to you and that is incredible, isn't
:16:52. > :16:58.it? There was a huge premium about producing stories about what I
:16:58. > :17:05.is because I have chosen to make people know about these stories
:17:05. > :17:10.is because I have chosen to make them public. There were certain
:17:10. > :17:22.legal issues which made people very Balls, senior Chancellor, when he
:17:22. > :17:24.says what you did was hideous, wrong, unconscionable, I have never
:17:24. > :17:28.seen people behave in this way, wrong, unconscionable, I have never
:17:28. > :17:41.statement really credible? It is all correct. I say it in the book, in
:17:41. > :17:46.April 2009, when told this story correct. I say it in the book, in
:17:46. > :17:53.about my resigning, a bull was the only person who screamed at me ——
:17:53. > :17:53.about my resigning, a bull was the of the staff. Have you been doing
:17:53. > :18:10.well? Gino... You know, you are of the staff. Have you been doing
:18:10. > :18:16.is therefore difficult for me to sit here and take absolutely at face
:18:16. > :18:23.value everything you say about Gordon Brown and Ed. If people like
:18:23. > :18:31.Miliband and new and in different activities, it is frankly stretching
:18:31. > :18:37.credibility be on breaking point they did not know. Ed Milliband
:18:37. > :18:41.credibility be on breaking point that after the election, I was
:18:41. > :18:49.responsible for our briefing about They knew that was untrue. Even
:18:49. > :18:52.though that became the source of Ed Milliband's complained, they were
:18:52. > :18:55.not willing to accept that because they knew I was not capable of
:18:55. > :18:59.that. In some ways, part of the reason I wrote this book is I was
:18:59. > :19:01.frankly tired of being blamed lots of things I had not done. In some
:19:01. > :19:10.ways, I could only say, this is of things I had not done. In some
:19:10. > :19:18.truth. I explained the things I did. Even in this interview you
:19:18. > :19:18.truth. I explained the things I you are still labour through a
:19:18. > :19:22.through. You have done an enormous you are still labour through a
:19:22. > :19:26.through. You have done an enormous amount of damage to the party and
:19:26. > :19:26.continue to do it. That is not show in the opinion polls, frankly. This
:19:26. > :19:30.will be forgotten by the time the in the opinion polls, frankly. This
:19:30. > :19:34.will be forgotten by the time the election comes around. You have
:19:34. > :19:36.will be forgotten by the time the this money, why do you give it to be
:19:36. > :19:50.the money I get will be going to this money, why do you give it to be
:19:50. > :19:50.the money I get will be going to good causes. I do not think Liberal
:19:50. > :19:53.voters would want the money to go to good causes. I do not think Liberal
:19:53. > :19:54.voters would want the money to go to the Labor Party. Frankly, I am
:19:54. > :20:07.service, you got in the Treasury thinking about the money and what to
:20:07. > :20:10.service, you got in the Treasury very young people thought you were
:20:10. > :20:13.very good. You ended up with a self—confessed alcoholic with a
:20:13. > :20:19.political career in ruins. What self—confessed alcoholic with a
:20:20. > :20:25.it say about the political culture in Britain in light of your demise?
:20:26. > :20:33.Did not spot these problems early enough. When I got invited to the
:20:34. > :20:41.political side, it was at a point when I did something within the
:20:41. > :20:46.civil servant —— service. At that point, the should be to collect
:20:46. > :20:52.civil servant —— service. At that saying this guy has bad instincts.
:20:52. > :20:58.This guy will do things and cut corners. There should have been
:20:58. > :20:58.This guy will do things and cut intervention. It then became a
:20:58. > :21:03.political problem. Is there not intervention. It then became a
:21:03. > :21:08.bigger problem here? In a way, you are succeeding in politics. Your
:21:08. > :21:15.memoir is completely divorced from IDS, beliefs, the bigger picture is
:21:15. > :21:22.— all you were obsessed about was tomorrow's headlines as were your
:21:22. > :21:27.something very wrong with that. That is not the way I thought about it. I
:21:27. > :21:33.knew with all the talks had with Gordon Brown and others... That
:21:33. > :21:34.knew with all the talks had with not the way you betrayed Gordon
:21:34. > :21:40.Brown. He is absolutely upset with not the way you betrayed Gordon
:21:40. > :21:40.Brown. He is absolutely upset with tomorrow's papers. They were not of
:21:40. > :21:50.the kinds of discussions I had. tomorrow's papers. They were not of
:21:50. > :21:51.Blair and Brown and the feuding tomorrow's papers. They were not of
:21:51. > :21:56.infighting was about aspiration tomorrow's papers. They were not of
:21:56. > :22:04.issues. The euro, the Constitution power. How for its own sake. I do
:22:04. > :22:05.issues. The euro, the Constitution and everything else. Do you really
:22:05. > :22:14.believe that? There were occasions like August 2006 where it was just
:22:14. > :22:24.about who got into power. But till headlines and the media is that
:22:24. > :22:26.about who got into power. But till was my job to win him the space
:22:26. > :22:29.about who got into power. But till needed to succeed to the top job and
:22:29. > :22:38.then bring his vision to bear. Did think anything has changed — the
:22:38. > :22:44.journalists, the degree to which politicians regard politics as a
:22:44. > :22:50.game — has that changed? Did danger is that it does not and we repeat
:22:50. > :22:53.those mistakes. To the extent that there will be any benefit to their
:22:53. > :23:02.political system is that it will be very difficult for politicians and
:23:03. > :23:07.their advisers act the way I acted. Have you ended up a bitter man?
:23:07. > :23:10.their advisers act the way I acted. was struck by a thing he wrote — I
:23:10. > :23:14.subsumed my life to Gordon for a long time and I have nothing to
:23:14. > :23:19.subsumed my life to Gordon for a for it? It was a long time. 13
:23:19. > :23:23.years. My life could have gone in a different direction, my personal
:23:23. > :23:27.life as well. You have made some terrible decisions. Do you feel
:23:27. > :23:28.life as well. You have made some can get your life back? Have you
:23:28. > :23:34.basically blown it? I cannot take those years back. You can not get
:23:34. > :23:38.has been the case since 2009. The your reputation back, really. That
:23:38. > :23:40.has been the case since 2009. The starting point for any of that,
:23:40. > :23:41.has been the case since 2009. The building any kind of future is to be
:23:41. > :23:50.honest about what you have done religious man, you work within the
:23:50. > :24:10.the past. I measure myself with religious man, you work within the
:24:10. > :24:18.cathartic process. I started out maker? Much more than before I
:24:18. > :24:20.cathartic process. I started out thinking, what lies to I tell in
:24:20. > :24:30.when it came to it, when I found order to be able to get this book
:24:30. > :24:32.when it came to it, when I found myself glossing over the truth and
:24:32. > :24:36.the stories and the people I had hurt and damage, I thought, you
:24:36. > :24:39.the stories and the people I had not being honest with yourself and
:24:39. > :24:45.you will not be able to look friends who know how you behaved in the
:24:45. > :24:45.you will not be able to look friends Damian McBride, we have to end it