:00:00. > :00:19.bitter to Sri Lanka. —— contributor. Welcome to HARDtalk. Is it time
:00:19. > :00:22.bitter to Sri Lanka. —— contributor. revolutionary dream? Civilians leave
:00:22. > :00:27.the government, but real power lies with the Armed Forces, emergency
:00:27. > :00:32.law, military courts, the outlawing of the Muslim Brotherhood. The list
:00:32. > :00:37.of repressive measures invites comparison with the darkest days of
:00:37. > :00:43.the Mubarak era. Today, political writer and activist Ahdaf Soueif.
:00:43. > :01:19.revolution, but is it too late? Ahdaf Soueif, welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:19. > :01:21.Thank you, it is good to be here. I would like to take you back to
:01:21. > :01:28.something you wrote at the time would like to take you back to
:01:28. > :01:33.Morsi government was toppled. " would like to take you back to
:01:33. > :01:48.write, military helicopters are circling over my house. " I said
:01:48. > :01:50.people, not that I want to believe. I think that the military don't
:01:50. > :02:00.people, not that I want to believe. to rule, at least, they don't want
:02:00. > :02:10.don't want to rule directly. You did interests and a specific view of
:02:10. > :02:12.don't want to rule directly. You did support the intervention, in the
:02:12. > :02:17.sense that you made it plain that you believe the Morsi government had
:02:17. > :02:26.become illegitimate. Do you regret that few? I think that the whole
:02:26. > :02:29.country, really, apart from the Muslim Brotherhood supporters,
:02:29. > :02:33.believe that the Morsi government had become illegitimate. And I
:02:33. > :02:37.believe that the country saw that we were being driven into a blank wall,
:02:37. > :02:43.basically. So there is no doubt were being driven into a blank wall,
:02:43. > :02:49.the will of the country was for were being driven into a blank wall,
:02:49. > :02:54.Brotherhood government to fall. You said something very interesting
:02:54. > :02:59.then, you said, the people apart supporters. It is not forget that
:02:59. > :03:11.the Muslim Brotherhood 145% of the election. They were by far the
:03:11. > :03:20.organised party —— 45%. Surely that gave them a mandate. They proceeded
:03:20. > :03:27.respect, you can't just sit on the somehow, lost all of its mandate. I
:03:27. > :03:30.am describing to you what the mood somehow, lost all of its mandate. I
:03:30. > :03:36.am describing to you what the mood of the country was and is. The fact
:03:36. > :03:38.is, the Muslim Brotherhood won a majority of Parliament. A clear
:03:38. > :03:49.President Morsi won the presidency, majority. Yes, absolutely. And
:03:49. > :03:52.President Morsi won the presidency, What happened after that, both after
:03:52. > :03:54.they won the Parliament and after they won the presidency, was that
:03:54. > :04:00.basically, they turned their back on they won the presidency, was that
:04:00. > :04:02.basically, they turned their back on the people. This is a government
:04:02. > :04:05.that came into place on the back of a revolution. They would not have
:04:05. > :04:10.been in power had it not been for the revolution. And they needed
:04:10. > :04:12.been in power had it not been for work with the people, they needed to
:04:12. > :04:21.show goodwill and good intentions, and they needed to come good on
:04:21. > :04:26.Doctor Morsi's promise that he would be eight president for all Egyptians
:04:26. > :04:34.not just for the Muslim Brotherhood. So what happened, it was what they
:04:34. > :04:40.Personally, I would have preferred that they continued, that it had
:04:40. > :04:44.Brotherhood to continue to be in power, and for President Morsi to
:04:44. > :04:47.continue to be in power for a bit longer. And I would have preferred
:04:47. > :04:51.the removal to have happened in longer. And I would have preferred
:04:51. > :04:55.different way. The reason I would have wanted him to continue for
:04:55. > :05:01.longer is that there is a quarrel, there is an argument between the
:05:01. > :05:04.forces of political Islam in the Muslim Brotherhood on the one hand,
:05:04. > :05:14.and the other forces on the other. progressive, liberal, nonreligious
:05:14. > :05:19.based. That argument was impossible to have while they were out of
:05:19. > :05:26.brotherhood and the Islamists in general were repressed, were in
:05:26. > :05:33.flirting with a regime and allowed to run for Parliament, they were
:05:33. > :05:34.underdog. So we couldn't have the argument which we proceeded to have
:05:34. > :05:40.sense in the nuance of your answer, argument which we proceeded to have
:05:40. > :05:42.sense in the nuance of your answer, and the complexity of your feeling
:05:42. > :05:49.about this, that you feel, maybe, revolutionaries, those who were
:05:49. > :05:52.about this, that you feel, maybe, Tahrir Square in January 2011, who
:05:52. > :05:56.were then in Tahrir Square again supporting the military as they
:05:56. > :06:00.toppled, and let's face it, launched a coup against the Morsi government,
:06:00. > :06:12.military coup, was fundamentally some of those people were misguided,
:06:12. > :06:16.wrong. There was nothing that anyone could do about what happened on
:06:16. > :06:18.wrong. There was nothing that anyone 30th of June. He 30th of June was,
:06:18. > :06:27.millions of them, making there will if you like, the second or the third
:06:27. > :06:30.millions of them, making there will no and toppling President Morsi
:06:30. > :06:35.millions of them, making there will they had toppled President Mubarak.
:06:35. > :06:40.The naivete was to say that we are revolution. In the army are part of
:06:40. > :06:49.us, and the army will be the vehicle revolution. If we look at Egypt
:06:49. > :06:53.ACC, who is effectively the leader of the Armed Forces, the idea that
:06:53. > :07:02.he is delivering the next phase of the Armed Forces, the idea that
:07:02. > :07:06.al—Sisi. I was just going to say that the will of the people is
:07:06. > :07:13.unstoppable. Beyond that, with the military removal of Morsi, and which
:07:13. > :07:19.General al—Sisi asking the people free mandate, a mandate to deal
:07:19. > :07:19.General al—Sisi asking the people this situation, which was chilling,
:07:19. > :07:24.to say the least, and which was this situation, which was chilling,
:07:24. > :07:29.strange because if what it was was that he needed to actually deal
:07:29. > :07:31.strange because if what it was was real terror, then if you are acting
:07:31. > :07:34.within the boundaries of the law then you don't need a mandate from
:07:34. > :07:38.the people. And so there was a question, and many of us expressed
:07:38. > :07:46.disquiet at what was this mandate for. So there was a parting of the
:07:46. > :07:54.ways. Is there any difference, in your view, between General al—Sisi
:07:54. > :07:56.and the regime he represents, and the Mubarak regime and what he
:07:56. > :08:02.court, the way the dissidents are represented? In terms of military
:08:02. > :08:03.court, the way the dissidents are request and locked up —— repressed,
:08:03. > :08:13.is there any difference? No, there request and locked up —— repressed,
:08:13. > :08:17.again? I wouldn't say that the and then taking you all the way
:08:18. > :08:22.again? I wouldn't say that the revolution took us all the way back
:08:22. > :08:28.again, I would say that there has been a protest movement in Egypt for
:08:28. > :08:36.have been living with waves of that revolution in January 2011. And
:08:36. > :08:42.revolution since then. I think that revolution since then. I think that
:08:42. > :08:50.what is happening now, what has happened over the last two and a
:08:50. > :08:55.every group that has seized power, wedge it was the military in every
:08:55. > :09:03.2011, or the democratically elected Brotherhood later Ron, or what is
:09:03. > :09:07.happening now is actually the old regime shedding one layout, or one
:09:07. > :09:18.phase, at adopting another one in policies and the same viruses. You
:09:18. > :09:23.have just launched this new movement with other like—minded campaigners,
:09:23. > :09:27.you have launched this movement with other like—minded campaigners,
:09:27. > :09:33.time that the polls suggest that 90% and more of Egyptians, right now,
:09:33. > :09:38.are supportive of the army. In essence, the military regime Egypt
:09:38. > :09:44.has today, is stronger and has more of a popular mandate than Mubarak
:09:44. > :09:54.had in his later years. Arguably, you are in a worse place to your
:09:54. > :10:00.Yes, I think that on the surface of it, this is true. For example, if
:10:00. > :10:04.the police were to drag one of us to it, this is true. For example, if
:10:04. > :10:06.the police were to drag one of us to jail right now, then the street
:10:06. > :10:20.would be behind them. And they might campaign group Journal is Without
:10:20. > :10:26.Borders. He said that people live campaign group Journal is Without
:10:26. > :10:26.Borders. He said that people live with the reality that people might
:10:26. > :10:40.gone. I would like to say that at with the reality that people might
:10:40. > :10:54.wants. However, the fact is that is looking for an easy answer,
:10:54. > :10:57.wants. However, the fact is that they went out for several reasons.
:10:57. > :11:05.The economy was one of them, the possibility of life on various
:11:05. > :11:10.levels, you can call it the abuse of human rights in a certain discourse,
:11:10. > :11:13.in another discourse you can say that if you were of a certain class
:11:13. > :11:16.than the possibility of your being picked up randomly from the street
:11:16. > :11:21.and killed in a police station were very high. These are all reasons
:11:21. > :11:24.which have not gone away. At the moment, the people are giving the
:11:24. > :11:29.current system a chance because moment, the people are giving the
:11:29. > :11:31.believe it will come good, that moment, the people are giving the
:11:31. > :11:33.will deliver what they want, that it will support them and so on. When
:11:33. > :11:37.the day comes that they realise will support them and so on. When
:11:37. > :11:42.basically everything that they left their homes for in January 2011
:11:42. > :11:47.continues to be the same, and, of course, by definition, worse because
:11:47. > :11:52.the situation worsens as you go along, then you will get a recurring
:11:52. > :11:55.wave. Would you acknowledge that one of the problems for the Egyptian
:11:55. > :12:01.people is that they look at what you, and are broadly menu is in
:12:01. > :12:08.people is that they look at what new movement you have launched ——
:12:08. > :12:15.broadly mean you, and in terms of a broad secular movement, you have
:12:15. > :12:19.message that connects with most ordinary Egyptian people, yes? Yes,
:12:19. > :12:28.we have failed to articulate a ordinary Egyptian people, yes? Yes,
:12:28. > :12:30.we have failed to articulate a discourse. Why? Why has this...
:12:30. > :12:32.we have failed to articulate a think this has been called the
:12:32. > :12:38.maverick middle by some academics, why have you failed to build support
:12:38. > :12:54.talking about a failure to build a at grassroots level in Egypt? OK,
:12:54. > :12:54.talking about a failure to build a political organisation that actually
:12:54. > :13:05.does... Well, it the fact is that it political organisation that actually
:13:05. > :13:07.does... Well, it the fact is that it wins votes. As I say, the Muslim
:13:07. > :13:18.Brotherhood 145% over the other Islamist parties. —— 45%. I think
:13:18. > :13:21.what happened in the presidential election is representative of what
:13:21. > :13:27.really went wrong. In the first round, you had Doctor Morsi, he
:13:27. > :13:30.really went wrong. In the first the Brotherhood candidate, who got
:13:30. > :13:41.nearly 5000 votes. —— 5 million votes. Just underneath them, was the
:13:41. > :13:48.other candidate who was supposed to be revolutionary. All over, the
:13:48. > :13:51.revolutionaries candidates got about 11 million votes. But it didn't
:13:51. > :13:54.count because they were fragmented. That is one of the main reasons
:13:54. > :13:58.count because they were fragmented. need to learn. Defragmentation is a
:13:58. > :14:03.profound danger, how would you deal reality is that the military led
:14:03. > :14:13.regime has outlawed not just the traditional guys, but also it has
:14:13. > :14:17.seized assets, and is trying to eliminate the Muslim Brotherhood in
:14:17. > :14:20.all of its forms in Egypt. As we have established, there is still a
:14:20. > :14:30.significant amount of support for the brotherhood, for the Islamist
:14:30. > :14:36.idea, inside your country. Where —— were you, as secularists, trying to
:14:36. > :14:45.build bridges to those people? Think the consensus at the moment is
:14:46. > :14:48.known. Note, so you abandoned them. No, of course not. Many of us have
:14:48. > :14:58.the political spectrum. That their No, of course not. Many of us have
:14:58. > :15:00.the political spectrum. That their have to learn to live together and
:15:00. > :15:06.so on. This is an issue of civil have to learn to live together and
:15:06. > :15:10.so on. This is an issue of civil political participation, and the
:15:10. > :15:14.And that is not happening. Thousands human rights that we will defend.
:15:14. > :15:14.And that is not happening. Thousands are in prison, hundreds have been
:15:14. > :15:17.killed, and the fact is that none of are in prison, hundreds have been
:15:17. > :15:18.killed, and the fact is that none of their political rights are being
:15:18. > :15:31.co—ordinate with them because for a very long time we have tried to
:15:31. > :15:35.co—ordinate with them because for a that and in the end it has not
:15:35. > :15:42.worked. In the end, what ever had we have given board done has been used
:15:42. > :15:50.and when they came to power it turned around and cosied up to the
:15:50. > :15:53.police. Remember, the police was declared the enemy of the Revolution
:15:53. > :15:58.and the revolutionary forces and was the instrument which Mooroolbark
:15:58. > :16:11.to declare that the police were the instrument which Mooroolbark
:16:11. > :16:21.increase their pay, to try and bring them into the heart of what they
:16:21. > :16:27.completely an act of betrayal. Clearly you do not appreciate the
:16:27. > :16:32.way the Muslim Brotherhood wielded power. We have moved on since then.
:16:32. > :16:40.Your prescription for politics today in Egypt seems to be a very bleak
:16:40. > :16:42.polarisation is inevitable. The Islamist of being oppressed by the
:16:43. > :16:47.military, you will not talk to them, and those in the population
:16:47. > :16:56.the state and nation, what prospect who are not with us are against
:16:56. > :17:00.the state and nation, what prospect is there of anything rather than
:17:00. > :17:10.remarked what we are trying to do more violence and polarisation was
:17:10. > :17:10.remarked what we are trying to do with the work I am a writer and
:17:10. > :17:29.activist. I'm not a politician. we are trying to do is provide a a a
:17:29. > :17:39.secular, revolutionary movements. Whether they are liberal or leftist
:17:39. > :17:44.interesting about this front and why I have joined it, it is really
:17:44. > :17:45.trying to learn from the lessons of the past stop is trying to learn
:17:45. > :17:53.from our mistakes. It is trying the past stop is trying to learn
:17:53. > :18:04.invent a new which replicates what was successful about the Revolution
:18:04. > :18:14.inevitable for coalitions and fronts to rate apart. I am fascinated by
:18:14. > :18:18.how you put it. You clearly believe that the revolution is still alive
:18:18. > :18:20.and the spirit of it can be revived. But in doing so it is fascinating
:18:20. > :18:27.that you are saying, remember I But in doing so it is fascinating
:18:27. > :18:32.writer, and I am not a politician. Many people who have love your work
:18:32. > :18:39.disappointed that you seem to have abandoned novel writing and fiction.
:18:39. > :18:49.It seems that you believe that activism have to consume your the
:18:49. > :18:53.consume... I does have to say that I have taken the decision to lock
:18:54. > :19:02.myself a wafer of it and try to work. How is it going to work? In
:19:02. > :19:08.a back seat. Then he went on and said, novelists have given up for
:19:08. > :19:28.that is the problem exactly. Poets fiction. Like there was so much
:19:28. > :19:28.that is the problem exactly. Poets you are inspired you... It can
:19:28. > :19:34.happen that you produce a brilliant you are inspired you... It can
:19:34. > :19:41.column in two days. A novel is a different thing. It takes months to
:19:41. > :19:48.put together. And it demands your heart. If your heart is elsewhere is
:19:48. > :19:54.really difficult. A novel will not happen. That is my personal problem.
:19:54. > :19:59.It is a personal problem but maiden it is a national cultural problem.
:19:59. > :20:04.You look at Egypt, what you get it is a national cultural problem.
:20:04. > :20:09.is and needs from you, let's not forget your novels were acclaimed
:20:10. > :20:16.from you, maybe what it needs is the observers eye to make sense at in an
:20:16. > :20:31.imaginative form to make sense of contribution you could make. I
:20:31. > :20:39.incredibly hard to carry out. When the e—mail comes about 15 kids who
:20:39. > :20:47.were standing on me steps of the courthouse where the killers on
:20:47. > :20:48.were standing on me steps of the 2010 where they are being tried
:20:48. > :20:52.were standing on me steps of the again and 15 kids standing up there
:20:52. > :20:59.with the nugget picked up and you see the immediate picture of one of
:20:59. > :21:09.them being beaten up by the police, come up with a statement, it is
:21:09. > :21:09.them being beaten up by the police, really hard. You could not in those
:21:09. > :21:19.absolutely determined to fight have to put down your novelist and
:21:19. > :21:20.absolutely determined to fight today's battle? I believe I am
:21:20. > :21:26.maybe you can see my point, that today's battle? I believe I am
:21:26. > :21:36.leave Egypt. To get away from the maybe your readers contribution
:21:36. > :21:36.leave Egypt. To get away from the day to day. I think able to start
:21:36. > :21:48.Egypt when there is so much at stake day to day. I think able to start
:21:48. > :21:52.Egypt when there is so much at stake and when there is so much happening
:21:52. > :21:58.and people are holding on to hope and try to find a way of moving
:21:58. > :22:02.incredibly full—time. This is the most difficult time that we have
:22:02. > :22:14.ever been through. Precisely because that at the time the street backs
:22:14. > :22:20.the military and the industry of the interior and the police, because
:22:20. > :22:25.people before a very long time you have respected and all of yourself
:22:25. > :22:41.as standing shoulder to shoulder with and that it public issues,
:22:41. > :22:51.supporters of any procedure that the Ministry of the interior might take
:22:51. > :22:55.against people of the brotherhood. The way that the sitting of the
:22:55. > :23:03.brotherhood was broken up with about 800 people dying there, which really
:23:03. > :23:13.be done like that. It has been a be done like that. It has been a
:23:13. > :23:27.searching. You know where your heart is. The secular forces are supposed
:23:27. > :23:33.to back his action and of course you condemn it. In condemning edge when
:23:33. > :23:44.far... You are sort of trapped?Yes, used by the brotherhood. Which as
:23:44. > :23:48.far... You are sort of trapped?Yes, the two forces that are shadowboxing
:23:48. > :23:56.soundly anti— revolutionaries. He is the last question. You have drawn a
:23:56. > :23:58.distinction between your life in the last question. You have drawn a
:23:58. > :24:00.distinction between your life in fact and your life and fiction.
:24:00. > :24:06.distinction between your life in you in your heart believe that
:24:06. > :24:11.Egypt's revolutionary —— revolution can be successful as a fact rather
:24:11. > :24:19.than a fiction? I believe it has to be successful and I believe that it
:24:19. > :24:20.is part of a global movement. A movement that is disenchanted and
:24:20. > :24:24.disillusioned with the way that movement that is disenchanted and
:24:24. > :24:29.world is run and it is trying to find a new and better way for a
:24:29. > :24:31.world is run and it is trying to and fairer world. I think we are
:24:31. > :24:45.part of it and I think we are going to win. We have to and their. It is
:24:45. > :24:51.so much for being on HARDtalk. —— we have to end there. Thank you so