:00:15. > :00:21.Welcome to HARDtalk. Our winds of change blowing across Iran? The
:00:21. > :00:26.Islamic Republic's new president, Hassan Rouhani, has engineered a
:00:26. > :00:34.diplomatic opening with the US. international isolation. Where will
:00:34. > :00:40.that leave diehard opponents of international isolation. Where will
:00:40. > :00:47.regime? My guest is Reza Pahlavi, XO oldest son of the late Shah of Iran
:00:47. > :00:53.and spokesman for the self—styled Iran National Council. Does the
:00:53. > :01:27.and spokesman for the self—styled have a role to play in the future?
:01:27. > :01:29.welcome to HARDtalk. Good afternoon. Thank you for having me on your
:01:29. > :01:38.programme. It is a pleasure. Let me Thank you for having me on your
:01:38. > :01:38.programme. It is a pleasure. Let me have seen the governments of Iran
:01:38. > :01:48.highest level. Do you welcome it? have seen the governments of Iran
:01:48. > :01:50.highest level. Do you welcome it? Every time there is a possibility of
:01:50. > :01:55.understanding of what it site says, Every time there is a possibility of
:01:55. > :02:07.That goes without saying. I wonder that is better than throwing rockets
:02:07. > :02:09.That goes without saying. I wonder whether you are prepared to admit
:02:09. > :02:14.you got it wrong. Earlier in the year, you said, whoever was elected
:02:14. > :02:16.as the next president of Iran, he will be a puppet of the supreme
:02:16. > :02:24.leader. Are you prepared to say will be a puppet of the supreme
:02:24. > :02:27.was incorrect? No. I still believe that. I am not the only one. If
:02:27. > :02:34.was incorrect? No. I still believe hear what the supreme leader says,
:02:34. > :02:37.there is not a... A consensus of opinion as to how to deal with the
:02:37. > :02:41.issue. Even a simple phone call opinion as to how to deal with the
:02:41. > :02:48.a big issue for the supreme leader, let alone the dialogue itself. That
:02:48. > :02:54.indicates, as far as the internet —— concerned, you are not dealing with
:02:54. > :03:02.one consolidated opinion. That will be more evident as we speak. That is
:03:02. > :03:12.my point. Under Hassan Rouhani, there is a diplomatic initiative. He
:03:12. > :03:16.nuclear issue. The supreme leader has expressed some concern about the
:03:16. > :03:20.phone call we talked about. It indicates that if you are prepared
:03:20. > :03:23.in the opposition to acknowledge interesting development, that might
:03:23. > :03:38.clarify some issues. Reading the interesting development, that might
:03:38. > :03:38.team is properly, as opposed to extract relating selectively some
:03:38. > :03:46.issues that can be encouraging in extract relating selectively some
:03:46. > :03:48.reality will lead us somewhere else. reality will lead us somewhere else.
:03:48. > :03:58.at the history of the regime and its at the history of the regime and its
:03:58. > :04:04.ideological religious system, aiming from the beginning, it has been
:04:04. > :04:12.beginning to crumble under domestic to export an ideology throughout the
:04:12. > :04:19.beginning to crumble under domestic pressure. The regime is finding
:04:19. > :04:27.itself into the court waters. —— difficult. The regime is facing
:04:27. > :04:29.itself into the court waters. —— a lose proposition. If they were to
:04:29. > :04:33.cave in and go against the ascent of one unifying slogan that has kept
:04:33. > :04:46.the fragments of the regime together so far, culminating in the infamous
:04:46. > :05:01.throughout the regime itself. Is presidents do that without having
:05:01. > :05:10.pressure? You let out the sceptical I may. You lay out the sceptical
:05:10. > :05:15.case very clearly. Look at the reality. Certain concrete things
:05:15. > :05:18.have happened. Political prisoners, including a high profile human
:05:18. > :05:24.rights leader, have been released. Academic intellect was in Tehran
:05:24. > :05:29.have it written an open letter to Obama. Hassan Rouhani is new and
:05:30. > :05:36.made indicating he is —— you are Obama, reciprocate the moves he
:05:36. > :05:45.made indicating he is —— you are prepared to relax sanctions. Did you
:05:45. > :05:48.back that caught? —— call? We will get to the human rights issue later.
:05:48. > :05:53.On the other side of the Queen, get to the human rights issue later.
:05:53. > :05:54.might be faced with a phenomenal as we saw the crumbling of the Soviet
:05:54. > :06:08.of perestroika. If that is the case, we saw the crumbling of the Soviet
:06:08. > :06:08.of perestroika. If that is the case, we welcome it. I will be the first
:06:08. > :06:14.person to say any time pressure we welcome it. I will be the first
:06:14. > :06:26.people. I do not think the regime removed from society, it will be a
:06:26. > :06:38.people. I do not think the regime again, we cannot abandon diplomacy
:06:38. > :06:40.and go to war. The Iranian people have been the most valiant defenders
:06:40. > :06:48.of values. Unfortunately, there have been the most valiant defenders
:06:48. > :06:53.international community. For the prisoners have been released, this
:06:53. > :06:58.is not to be treated as a concession but as a principal. All political
:06:58. > :07:03.prisoners are to be freed. The question is, how far is the regime
:07:04. > :07:12.willing to go to give in to demands will lobby on what the international
:07:12. > :07:22.committee expects. —— beyond. We do watching and supporting an onboard
:07:22. > :07:25.in dialogue and diplomatic process. I am getting to my puzzlement with
:07:25. > :07:32.your position. Even before Hassan Rouhani came to power and torque is
:07:32. > :07:37.diplomatic initiative, you were extraordinarily critical of Obama.
:07:37. > :07:43.In the summer of 2012, he described, I'm quoting the Jerusalem Post,
:07:43. > :07:48.In the summer of 2012, he described, this is your word, the President is
:07:48. > :07:52.hellbent on engaging with the Tehran regime just to prove that he is
:07:52. > :07:53.hellbent on engaging with the Tehran George W Bush. You compared him
:07:53. > :08:10.First of all, the first answer given George W Bush. You compared him
:08:10. > :08:19.First of all, the first answer given to the movement back in 2009, was a
:08:19. > :08:27.Protesting the result of a rigged establish the basis we were prepared
:08:27. > :08:36.to have for dialogue. The problem establish the basis we were prepared
:08:36. > :08:38.to have for dialogue. The problem Unfortunately, we are facing the
:08:38. > :08:48.fact that Iran is on the verge of obtaining nuclear weapons. This
:08:48. > :08:49.fact that Iran is on the verge of suggested it. Iran is left than
:08:49. > :08:49.fact that Iran is on the verge of year away from applying nuclear
:08:49. > :08:56.bombs. That that mean? It means year away from applying nuclear
:08:56. > :09:00.world realises that if diplomacy was to fail yet again, the options are
:09:00. > :09:06.becoming less available. That is when I start to worry as an Iranian.
:09:06. > :09:19.I am afraid that because so much time has been wasted, they fell
:09:19. > :09:22.I am afraid that because so much different picture, there will be
:09:22. > :09:28.confrontation. I am trying to avoid confrontation. If we limit the topic
:09:28. > :09:31.to simple dialogue with the regime, without preparing an opportunity
:09:31. > :09:37.that might avoid conflict and war, that is the part I am concerned
:09:37. > :09:39.evident in the action with foreign governments as they deal with Iran.
:09:39. > :09:45.UKIP telling me that this is as governments as they deal with Iran.
:09:45. > :09:50.Iranian. You have an extraordinary Iranian heritage. But it taught
:09:50. > :09:54.Iranian. You have an extraordinary from Washington, DC. Your basic
:09:54. > :09:56.Iranian. You have an extraordinary Barrowland, in the US. I wonder
:09:56. > :09:58.Iranian. You have an extraordinary Iranians watching this in their
:09:58. > :10:03.televisions in Iran will feel about your words. After all, you emphasise
:10:03. > :10:11.what you see as the imminent threat of Iran acquiring nuclear weapons.
:10:11. > :10:14.That may suggest you are more lined up with Benjamin Netanyahu, who
:10:14. > :10:19.comes to the UN who describes Hassan clothing keeps telling the world
:10:19. > :10:30.support the Israeli position that within months or two years, they
:10:30. > :10:35.will have to be a military strike against Iran? That is exactly my
:10:35. > :10:43.to avoid a scenario whereby some against Iran? That is exactly my
:10:43. > :10:47.governments will decide to opt for literary intervention. It will be a
:10:47. > :10:52.losing —— a lose lose for all of us. But you are supporting a strike
:10:52. > :10:56.against Iran? Nobody is focusing on what I have been saying for at least
:10:56. > :11:01.three years and then some before that. The most important way to
:11:01. > :11:11.avoid war, and wet diplomacy has failed, is a third way. Refer to the
:11:11. > :11:15.Iranian people who are at the end of the day are the first victims of the
:11:15. > :11:31.circumstances, under so much talent themselves, things that have proven
:11:31. > :11:35.changes... —— non—violent changes, if South Africa, the former East
:11:35. > :11:39.Bloc countries, there is movement in the Czech Republic, what have you
:11:39. > :11:54.Instead of thinking of warmongering and sabre rattling and threatening
:11:54. > :11:59.Iran and Iranians with the potential of attack to that country, why not
:11:59. > :12:04.help the people themselves? They will be the first to tell you, we
:12:04. > :12:11.want to liberate ourselves. The regime is sandwiching us. It is
:12:11. > :12:36.important is, what relevance does our country to the brink of attack.
:12:36. > :12:36.important is, what relevance does that have to Iran today? —— against
:12:36. > :12:43.disconnect between your voice in communism in Poland. There is a
:12:43. > :12:52.have to live with. They have tried exile and the reality people in
:12:52. > :12:54.have to live with. They have tried 2011. Their movements were crushed.
:12:54. > :12:56.Many people were imprisoned. It 2011. Their movements were crushed.
:12:56. > :12:58.easy for you to talk about another round of civil disobedience. You are
:12:58. > :13:09.not there. I do not know better round of civil disobedience. You are
:13:09. > :13:21.physical presence is important. round of civil disobedience. You are
:13:21. > :13:25.consider myself being at some point in Tehran, in the small cities,
:13:25. > :13:31.consider myself being at some point in the refugee camps somewhere in
:13:31. > :13:38.Turkey or in Iraqi. Speaking on behalf of, to the expectations that
:13:38. > :13:43.my fellow compatriots have. I have been to Paris and London, all over
:13:43. > :13:50.the place. I am not outside of Iran generation who could have been
:13:50. > :13:56.there. If I step in Tehran airport right now, what will happen to me?
:13:56. > :13:59.The question is not about me not wanting to be there. Just because I
:13:59. > :14:03.am not in my country does not mean I am disconnected. Today's population
:14:03. > :14:10.and the young generation is in June with what I am saying. I wonder
:14:10. > :14:14.about that. I am trying to dress their expectation. I want to talk
:14:14. > :14:19.about your personal situation. The final point about what are referred
:14:19. > :14:23.to as possible to connect between you and the people inside your
:14:23. > :14:29.country. I am sure you look at Twitter. The many reformist blogs
:14:29. > :14:33.that there are in Iran, despite Twitter. The many reformist blogs
:14:33. > :14:40.you call the widespread repression. agree with the current regime have
:14:40. > :14:42.their voices heard. I read a lot of Twitter feeds and blogs. Many people
:14:43. > :14:50.from Hassan Rouhani. They have high Twitter feeds and blogs. Many people
:14:50. > :14:50.from Hassan Rouhani. They have high hopes. It seems to me you are not
:14:50. > :14:54.prepared to acknowledge any of that hopes. It seems to me you are not
:14:54. > :14:58.prepared to acknowledge any of that excitement until —— excitement.
:14:58. > :15:09.prepared to acknowledge any of that might be at a turning point moment.
:15:09. > :15:18.I have heard this song before. Since then, 20 years are gone by. Iran has
:15:18. > :15:25.unemployment is skyrocketing. We have problems ranging from property
:15:25. > :15:30.prostitution and so many other elements of society. I find it hard
:15:30. > :15:34.for any Westerners to believe that Iranians get excited as a result of
:15:34. > :15:38.some candidate pretending that he is going to solve the issue. They want
:15:38. > :15:45.tangible results. I say, prove it to us, Mr Rouhani. Prove it to us that
:15:45. > :15:50.the regime is willing to bend under expectations that are appropriate,
:15:50. > :15:57.Stanford or an international cyber. My job is not to advocate what the
:15:57. > :16:01.people expect of the regime. My My job is not to advocate what the
:16:01. > :16:05.is to say that the Iranians it will demand more than that. They're
:16:05. > :16:10.concerned with lack of political concerned with the lack of any
:16:10. > :16:13.whereby they can have freedom of six press on. If a couple of people
:16:14. > :16:28.happen to Twitter couple of things, I don't think that is the freedom of
:16:28. > :16:32.international government, should do to help further this third way,
:16:32. > :16:34.international government, should do internal rebellion that you are
:16:34. > :16:40.the people of Iran, but the one talking about? You have described
:16:40. > :16:52.that the United States engaged in thing they seem not to want to want
:16:52. > :16:59.regime removed from power. Do you that see the regime —— that saw
:17:00. > :17:00.regime removed from power. Do you think the Iranian public wants
:17:00. > :17:10.sustained intervention and meddling from outside governments to change
:17:10. > :17:18.that is argument for another time. the one that you have will stop
:17:18. > :17:19.that is argument for another time. 20th century witnessed all sorts of
:17:19. > :17:28.manipulations or interventions across the globe that basically
:17:28. > :17:32.societies like ours to have full independence and full participation
:17:32. > :17:34.themselves, which is exactly the platform that I subscribe to. In
:17:34. > :17:38.fact, it is the very essence of platform that I subscribe to. In
:17:39. > :17:48.struggle that we have today with our international community? The only
:17:48. > :17:51.thing as Iranians that we ask the international community to support
:17:51. > :17:55.is our right as Iranians citizens to be able to conduct free and fair
:17:55. > :17:59.elections in our own country, in order for the people to be able
:17:59. > :18:02.elections in our own country, in choose their true representatives,
:18:02. > :18:07.in order to be able to adopt a new constitution that will provide us
:18:07. > :18:12.system, which will be the only way for Iran to be able to come out
:18:12. > :18:14.system, which will be the only way this chaos and find its path back to
:18:14. > :18:18.modesty —— modernity, freedom, and rejoining the community of free
:18:18. > :18:20.modesty —— modernity, freedom, and spring missions. We are not asking
:18:20. > :18:25.the will to intervene on our behalf, all are asking is for them to defend
:18:25. > :18:29.us in these rights. There are only two possibilities. Either the regime
:18:29. > :18:33.concedes to this legitimate demand, or it doesn't. Then the question is,
:18:33. > :18:40.if it does not, is the world going to pack their bags and go home?
:18:40. > :18:43.if it does not, is the world going we going to let a fascist regime or
:18:43. > :18:55.should apply to South Africa, but a totalitarian regime prevail at no
:18:55. > :18:59.should apply to South Africa, but Ukraine, what not to run. —— not to
:18:59. > :19:12.spokesman for this self—styled Iran. are you really the right man to
:19:12. > :19:13.spokesman for this self—styled Iran. You are a man with royal blood in
:19:13. > :19:29.Iran of the 21st century. What really is the point of view being a
:19:29. > :19:31.movement? First of all, it is not about me, it is about the message.
:19:31. > :19:34.If the message is important, it about me, it is about the message.
:19:34. > :19:40.not listen to the accounts at the end of the day. But with respect,
:19:40. > :19:43.you are the messenger. How do we measure what the Iranian people
:19:43. > :19:48.think and want if they have no ability to openly stated without any
:19:48. > :19:53.chance of being persecuted as a result of their opinions? If you
:19:53. > :19:57.want to know why there is some importance of my role among other
:19:57. > :20:06.things is that anybody associated with being probed me or my family is
:20:06. > :20:11.immediately subjected to the death penalty in Iran. That speaks for
:20:11. > :20:13.itself. It will was —— if it was irrelevant or unimportant, why would
:20:13. > :20:16.the regime bother assassinating irrelevant or unimportant, why would
:20:16. > :20:22.executing people because of their ideological tennis is? I am not
:20:22. > :20:29.comparison, but if you check, you will see that when I took action
:20:29. > :20:40.was voted man of the year by many Iranians as it was polled. You can
:20:40. > :20:43.interpret Iranian internal opinion many different ways, but it seems to
:20:43. > :20:48.father, given all that we now know me, given what happens to your
:20:48. > :20:51.father, given all that we now know about his systemic human rights
:20:51. > :21:04.committee of tourists, the State abuses, his repression is despite
:21:04. > :21:06.Department, the Iranian people might Department, the Iranian people might
:21:06. > :21:08.regard you with a little bit more credibility if you were to say that
:21:08. > :21:24.any future government which involved credibility if you were to say that
:21:24. > :21:40.many of the things that your father the Iranian National Council ——
:21:40. > :21:40.many of the things that your father critical of human rights violations
:21:40. > :21:49.of not just not just us resume, critical of human rights violations
:21:49. > :21:52.the past. I'm on the record. I'm not going to condone any violation of
:21:52. > :21:58.human rights. The actual judgement in history left to the overall
:21:58. > :22:03.public and based on the facts, but I someone like you to sit in your
:22:03. > :22:11.chair and say that while I am held in contempt because of a genetic
:22:11. > :22:15.connection, that I am not free to be is like me saying I should judge you
:22:15. > :22:19.based on what your parents did. is like me saying I should judge you
:22:19. > :22:27.think that is a little bit childish if you forgive my expression. People
:22:27. > :22:33.have their own opinion, they know irrelevant as to what was done in
:22:33. > :22:40.the past, because I'm talking about the future. I am a generation that
:22:40. > :22:44.has enough of a backdrop of knowing what went wrong or well in the past
:22:44. > :22:48.and a bridge to the generation of the future. Do you really think
:22:48. > :22:50.and a bridge to the generation of can be a bridge to Iran's future?
:22:50. > :22:54.Goodness knows, your family has suffered a great deal. Many would
:22:54. > :23:00.but your family has also suffered a but your family has also suffered a
:23:00. > :23:01.great. You lost to several rings —— siblings who took their own lives
:23:01. > :23:09.live with what happened to your because they found it difficult
:23:09. > :23:17.live with what happened to your family. Would it not be difficult
:23:17. > :23:25.and accept that Iran has no place for that you any more. I disagree. I
:23:25. > :23:30.think a lot of people in Iran think that while there are certainly
:23:30. > :23:34.what was done and accomplished in overwhelmingly positive result of
:23:34. > :23:40.what was done and accomplished in the 20th century under both my
:23:40. > :23:42.father and grandfather. What I am saying to the Iranians beep will is
:23:42. > :23:50.but we are talking about a certain not that we want to repeat the past,
:23:50. > :23:52.but we are talking about a certain series of principles that as we
:23:52. > :23:56.compare ourselves to where the world is going to free and progressive
:23:56. > :24:02.societies, as opposed to countries totalitarian system, of course we're
:24:02. > :24:05.not going to come out of the system. Therefore the question at the end of
:24:05. > :24:08.the day has nothing to do with the way in what I am trying to do. The
:24:08. > :24:12.people of Iran will have to make that decision. All I am standing for
:24:12. > :24:15.is their opportunity to make the decision for themselves. And provide
:24:15. > :24:19.the least costly way to come out of this issue. I think that civil
:24:19. > :24:23.disobedience and nonviolence, which was the key position that I have
:24:23. > :24:28.taken and I still abide by, is a less costly way to achieve the goal
:24:28. > :24:30.as to other scenarios, which will involve violence and will not get us
:24:30. > :24:35.democracy. That is what I stand involve violence and will not get us
:24:35. > :24:39.At the end of the day, but the people decide. Reza Pahlavi, we
:24:39. > :24:43.At the end of the day, but the to end there. Thank you very much.