:00:00. > :00:00.still searching for possible survivors.
:00:00. > :00:12.Now it is time for HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk, I am Stephen
:00:13. > :00:14.Sackur. Vladimir Putin rules Russia with ruthless efficiency, opponents
:00:15. > :00:22.and potential rivals know they are engaged in a dangerous game. For
:00:23. > :00:25.proof, they need look no further than the fate of Mikhail
:00:26. > :00:28.Khodorkovsky. Once Russia's richest man, an oligarch who crossed the
:00:29. > :00:34.Kremlin and has been a prisoner ever since. My guest today is his son,
:00:35. > :01:13.Pavel Khodorkovsky. Pavel Khodorkovsky, welcome to
:01:14. > :01:18.HARDtalk. Thank you for inviting me. Your father was arrested and has
:01:19. > :01:24.since been detained in 2003. Is it fair to say that that moment of his
:01:25. > :01:29.arrest changed your life forever? It certainly was a big shock. My father
:01:30. > :01:32.and I saw each other last one month before his arrest. He was on a
:01:33. > :01:39.business trip to the US, stopped by my college to see how I had settled
:01:40. > :01:43.in. You were just 18. I was just 18, I had just come to the college to
:01:44. > :01:46.study at the university, and one of our last evenings together was in
:01:47. > :01:58.Boston. We talked about what was about to happen. And he said to you,
:01:59. > :02:03.what? That he feared that he was in a very dangerous place in Russia? He
:02:04. > :02:07.didn't really use the word fear. In fact, we didn't talk about it up
:02:08. > :02:12.until our last ride together to the airport. Because both him and I knew
:02:13. > :02:18.what was going on. His business partner, Platon Lebedev, was already
:02:19. > :02:22.in jail. We decided to just enjoy each other's company. On the ride to
:02:23. > :02:26.the airport I asked him what was about to happen. He said, the last
:02:27. > :02:36.thing that the government has left to do. That is to arrest me. He
:02:37. > :02:39.could see it coming. He could see it coming, but he was very calm about
:02:40. > :02:43.it. I just wonder whether there was a part of you, in the midst of all
:02:44. > :02:47.the difficulties you faced over the last ten years, that was a bit angry
:02:48. > :02:56.with him for taking the choice to go back when he could have stayed in
:02:57. > :03:03.the US and avoided imprisonment. I have two feelings, really. One of
:03:04. > :03:14.anger and agitation, maybe, that my father made the choice he did. But
:03:15. > :03:17.the other is really disappointed with myself, because I had an
:03:18. > :03:25.opportunity to try to talk him out of going back to Russia and I
:03:26. > :03:28.didn't. I didn't, because my father has always been a very strong
:03:29. > :03:31.person, and he described the coming events and his possible arrest with
:03:32. > :03:40.such calmness, that I thought, who am I to try to convince him not to
:03:41. > :03:46.go there? Of course, I blame myself for that. I want to come back to
:03:47. > :03:50.what happened when he went back. But I want to ask you if you are in
:03:51. > :03:57.touch with him right now, and what sort of state he is in today. We are
:03:58. > :04:00.in touch. Now, for the past few years, we have been more in touch
:04:01. > :04:03.than ever before, because he is now in a different prison colony in
:04:04. > :04:06.Russia, which actually allows phone calls. So he was able to call his
:04:07. > :04:16.family every Saturday for about ten minutes. It is the same across the
:04:17. > :04:20.entire penitentiary system, that is all you get. One phone call a week,
:04:21. > :04:25.but it has really put us in touch. Before that it was only letters. I
:04:26. > :04:29.know he was for a long period in a prison in the Far East in Siberia,
:04:30. > :04:32.and now he is up north near the Finnish border, nobody, I think,
:04:33. > :04:35.thinks that the Russian prison regimes are easy, but what are
:04:36. > :04:44.conditions for him, and what is his health like? The conditions are much
:04:45. > :04:46.the same for any other prisoner. I'm sure people have heard horror
:04:47. > :04:53.stories about the Russian penal colonies, especially in the last few
:04:54. > :04:56.months. There are many in Russia, some are better some are worse. But
:04:57. > :05:00.my father has always been in so`called red zones. There are black
:05:01. > :05:03.zones, controlled by criminal authorities, and red zones that are
:05:04. > :05:11.controlled tightly by the official administration. The authorities have
:05:12. > :05:15.been very particular about placing him in red zones, so he has down to
:05:16. > :05:25.the last letter of the penal code conditions. How is his spirit? His
:05:26. > :05:40.spirit is strong. He is very happy to talk to me, and he is very upbeat
:05:41. > :05:43.when we talk on the phone. Back in 2010, when the new verdict was
:05:44. > :05:54.announced, he realised that he may be in jail for an unlimited amount
:05:55. > :06:03.of time. So, he has pushed away that idea that there is X number of years
:06:04. > :06:05.left before his release. In principle, he could and should be
:06:06. > :06:11.released with current parole regulations, in the August of 2014.
:06:12. > :06:16.But you are telling me that he doesn't allow himself to believe
:06:17. > :06:19.that is going to happen. He doesn't allow himself to think about it,
:06:20. > :06:23.because that has proven false before. My father was supposed to be
:06:24. > :06:33.released on parole first in around 2007 when he became eligible to
:06:34. > :06:42.apply for parole. Then, his first sentence was supposed to expire in
:06:43. > :06:45.2011. You talk about the second trial. Let us now dig into the
:06:46. > :06:49.detail of what your father is convicted for, why he is in prison.
:06:50. > :06:52.Of course, there have been two trials, convicted both times, and in
:06:53. > :06:55.essence trial one was about tax evasion and fraud, trial two was
:06:56. > :06:57.about misappropriation of funding, theft, essentially, from his own
:06:58. > :07:13.company, theft of thousands of rubles worth of assets. You have a
:07:14. > :07:19.man who, to many Russians, sounds like the worst of the oligarchs. A
:07:20. > :07:25.man who is utterly greedy, selfish, and committed to nobody's interest
:07:26. > :07:29.but his own. That is certainly the image that the government wants to
:07:30. > :07:36.project onto the society. But public opinion has changed dramatically.
:07:37. > :07:39.Largely because of the second trial. You would accept that the first
:07:40. > :07:42.role, as the European Court of Human Right recently concluded, was, in
:07:43. > :07:48.essence, fair ` the judge was not biased, and there was a serious case
:07:49. > :07:53.against your father. Would you accept that? No, I would disagree
:07:54. > :07:56.with that. The European Court of Human Right, while examining the
:07:57. > :07:58.verdict and the pre`trial detention that my father has gone through,
:07:59. > :08:06.concluded that there were procedural violations. It stopped short of
:08:07. > :08:09.calling the trial politically motivated, it highlighted the fact
:08:10. > :08:18.that there were other reasons that were pursued in sentencing my
:08:19. > :08:22.father. You cannot deny ` obviously you were a child, and you moved to
:08:23. > :08:26.the US before he was arrested ` that you have obviously researched it
:08:27. > :08:30.very closely. You know what your father was involved in. At the time
:08:31. > :08:34.he acquired his own unimaginable wealth ` and he was Russia's richest
:08:35. > :08:37.man, worth US$15 billion on paper ` he acquired that wealth by taking
:08:38. > :08:39.assets that belonged to the state at knockdown prices, through often
:08:40. > :08:42.rigged auction processes, where he and cronies close to Boris Yeltsin
:08:43. > :08:59.did deals for each other, and how can you justify how he acquired much
:09:00. > :09:13.of his wealth? I think how he acquired Yukos back in the 90s has
:09:14. > :09:16.been declared. At the time, I was only 11 years old, but my
:09:17. > :09:18.information comes from the same books that were written and
:09:19. > :09:21.documentaries that were filmed. I should say that my father himself
:09:22. > :09:24.admitted that he does hold certain responsibilities morally, but what
:09:25. > :09:36.had been done in the 90s had been done in accordance with the law at
:09:37. > :09:39.the time. It is interesting you say that your father acknowledged that
:09:40. > :09:44.there is some sort of moral issues here. I just wonder, going back to
:09:45. > :09:47.that key decision he took to go back to Russia, whether you feel there
:09:48. > :09:51.was a sense in which he felt partly a duty to go back to atone for the
:09:52. > :10:10.riches that he had taken from that country. My father took a sense that
:10:11. > :10:13.you could not abandon people. His business partner, Platon Lebedev,
:10:14. > :10:19.who was imprisoned a couple of months before my father's arrest,
:10:20. > :10:23.was his close friend. So he felt an obligation to go back. Also, he felt
:10:24. > :10:26.that he had a good chance of actually defending his reputation
:10:27. > :10:37.and standing up for himself, and for Yukos company in court. Of course,
:10:38. > :10:39.he didn't know at the time, the whole judicial system would be
:10:40. > :10:46.turned subservient to the government. Another point you have
:10:47. > :10:50.just made was the sense in which public attitudes in Russia changed
:10:51. > :10:59.over time, I just wonder if that is because your father himself has
:11:00. > :11:02.changed over time. Look at things he wrote before he was in prison, when
:11:03. > :11:04.his business career was unbelievably successful, and he was an all`out
:11:05. > :11:08.advocate for capitalism, for business read in tooth and claw, I
:11:09. > :11:17.think he wrote a book which was in essence a praise to the God of
:11:18. > :11:22.money. These days, he sounds very different. In court in recent times
:11:23. > :11:29.he has made a point of saying that he is not an ideal man, but he has
:11:30. > :11:33.very strong ideals. He said not too long ago, I do not want to die in
:11:34. > :11:38.prison, but if I have to, if it is needed for me to do that to stand up
:11:39. > :11:43.for the values, the ideals that I have, I will do it. Has he changed?
:11:44. > :11:48.He certainly has. Prison has certainly changed him as a person.
:11:49. > :11:56.Before 2003 he was always a very strict man. A man that viewed people
:11:57. > :12:03.that he worked with primarily for their professional qualities. He was
:12:04. > :12:12.ruthless. He was ruthless. He ignored emotions. In prison he was
:12:13. > :12:15.exposed to so many stories, some of which he describes in his writings,
:12:16. > :12:30.that he really came to become more emotional. From an analyst of
:12:31. > :12:34.Russia, who knows your father's story, he says that your father's
:12:35. > :12:45.fight has been for his business, not for the principles of freedom. How
:12:46. > :12:49.do you respond to that? Well, my father's fight was for the company
:12:50. > :12:51.when he went in, but also, when he was arrested, let's not forget about
:12:52. > :13:04.the added motivation that was provided to the government. It was
:13:05. > :13:07.not only about taking away and renationalising Yukos oil company,
:13:08. > :13:09.it was also about draining the opposition of financial resources
:13:10. > :13:18.and exemplifying the case of my father. But the rules of the game
:13:19. > :13:26.have changed, and business can no longer finance the political
:13:27. > :13:29.opposition. That is it gets very interesting. Because your father,
:13:30. > :13:33.and we are talking about him evolving as a man, he evolved as a
:13:34. > :13:37.business leader who was only interested in seeing money. He
:13:38. > :13:40.seemed to evolve into someone who put a lot of money and organisations
:13:41. > :13:43.to modernise civic society, funded opposition parties, bought a
:13:44. > :13:54.newspaper which gave him a position of power and influence. Was he not
:13:55. > :13:58.extraordinarily naive, or maybe arrogant, to think that he could do
:13:59. > :14:04.that? To challenge the supremacy of the Kremlin and Vladimir Putin, and
:14:05. > :14:11.get away with it? He was naive and idealistic. If you remember, my
:14:12. > :14:21.father has gone through that process of transition from Soviet state to a
:14:22. > :14:25.fledgling democracy. So, he really thought at the end of 2003 when he
:14:26. > :14:28.was making a decision to go back, he thought that a lot of things the
:14:29. > :14:31.government still controls, but he at least thought that we do have this
:14:32. > :14:40.judiciary that is independent, that he could rely on. Do you think he
:14:41. > :14:49.knew that that was what was coming up inevitably in his life? That's
:14:50. > :14:53.the difference between the two men. For my father, it was not personal.
:14:54. > :15:02.Vladimir Putin said it has never been personal. It was all about an
:15:03. > :15:08.economic case that is what he said in 2003. He says look at, Bernard
:15:09. > :15:16.Madoff, Madoff, he got 150 years in prison. Your father got off lightly.
:15:17. > :15:18.Completely different cases. The personal against general, attitude
:15:19. > :15:26.towards the case, my father did challenge the government on the
:15:27. > :15:30.issue of corruption. That is when it became personal for Putin. A lot of
:15:31. > :15:42.people in his close circle that unfortunately took part in those
:15:43. > :15:46.deals. My father pointed out to them. Final character analysis point
:15:47. > :15:50.from you, you say he challenged Putin on corruption. There was a
:15:51. > :15:53.famous moment in 2003 on Russian television, your father was seen to
:15:54. > :15:56.tell Putin directly in a public forum, $30 billion worth of
:15:57. > :16:12.corruption is happening in the state today. He seemed to be saying, the
:16:13. > :16:18.fault is ours, yours and mine. It was embarrassing to President Putin
:16:19. > :16:25.to have that happen in public. Your father, again, exhibited arrogance
:16:26. > :16:28.doing that? That is really the difference between the new sort of
:16:29. > :16:31.way of thinking, of addressing the issues head on, recognising your
:16:32. > :16:43.responsibility for parts of it, and being able to move forward. My
:16:44. > :16:48.father ultimately did go into jail, thinking he was fighting for a
:16:49. > :16:54.bigger cause than himself. For political pluralism, for a bigger
:16:55. > :16:59.future for the country. Vladimir Putin's perspective at the time was
:17:00. > :17:03.different. It was all about re`establishing the supremacy of the
:17:04. > :17:08.country. He did not want anyone standing in his way. Vladimir Putin
:17:09. > :17:10.is still in power, two terms as president, then prime minister, now
:17:11. > :17:14.president again, could be president until 2024. Given that reality, do
:17:15. > :17:31.you believe your father will be released in August 2014? Actually,
:17:32. > :17:37.yes. I'm very, very optimistic. I am very much looking forward to seeing
:17:38. > :17:41.my father in August next year. I have to say you have changed your
:17:42. > :17:44.mind. You did say, only a year ago, you feared that your father would
:17:45. > :17:50.never be released as long as Vladimir Putin was in power. That is
:17:51. > :17:52.true. Things have changed in Russia. There is a lot going on
:17:53. > :18:01.domestically, there are other things that the government is worried
:18:02. > :18:08.about. I think the time is right, it has been ten years. Everybody moved
:18:09. > :18:12.on. The time is right to release my father. I'm really looking forward
:18:13. > :18:15.to it. You say things have changed, it seems to me, a lot of things have
:18:16. > :18:21.changed to a more authoritarian direction. One can look at the fate
:18:22. > :18:24.of the Pussy Riot protesters, one can look at the charges currently
:18:25. > :18:30.levelled against Alexei Navalny, the leading figure for the Opposition.
:18:31. > :18:32.One can conclude that more than ever before, Vladimir Putin does not want
:18:33. > :18:39.to contemplate serious challenges to his supremacy. Your father
:18:40. > :18:46.represents, perhaps, the most serious challenge to his supremacy.
:18:47. > :18:50.That is where I think the major change has taken place. I do not
:18:51. > :18:57.mean it in a positive way, where things have improved. A couple of
:18:58. > :18:59.years ago, it was only my father that was on the forefront of
:19:00. > :19:08.presenting the most political risks, or at least, that is how the Russian
:19:09. > :19:11.government used to think about it. After 2011, after the protests we
:19:12. > :19:19.had in many different cities in Russia, the whole field of political
:19:20. > :19:21.opposition started reviving. Now we have different people challenging
:19:22. > :19:30.the Kremlin, they occupy the brain space. The government has to deal
:19:31. > :19:34.with it. That is why I believe they have many other new pressing issues.
:19:35. > :19:42.Releasing my father would not necessarily be the worst thing for
:19:43. > :19:45.them to do. Because you have been in the United States for the the last
:19:46. > :19:49.ten years and the western capitals, you have spent a lot of time asking
:19:50. > :19:57.the voices in power in the West to lend their support to your campaign
:19:58. > :20:00.to get your father released. Do you feel that President Obama, who
:20:01. > :20:03.famously pressed the reset button with Putin at the start his second
:20:04. > :20:10.term, whether you think Obama and others have provided the support on
:20:11. > :20:18.this issue that you wanted? It really depends. My goal has always
:20:19. > :20:21.been very simple. To try to get my father out of jail as soon as
:20:22. > :20:24.possible. My ask is also very direct: Please help me to get the
:20:25. > :20:31.message across to the Russian government that it has been too long
:20:32. > :20:33.and I want my father out. With the greatest respect, that is your
:20:34. > :20:37.perspective, the perspective seen in Russia and London is that Russia is
:20:38. > :20:41.one of the great energy powers of the world. Russia retains a right of
:20:42. > :20:45.veto at the UN Security Council, it is locked in the power system, will
:20:46. > :20:53.not the fate of your father get in the way of that? That is the
:20:54. > :20:57.disappointing thing about politics. A lot of times practical matters of
:20:58. > :21:04.diplomacy get in the way of principled issues like human rights.
:21:05. > :21:11.So you are disappointed, for example with President Obama? I think the US
:21:12. > :21:13.government and President Obama have been very naive about the sort of
:21:14. > :21:27.negotiating opportunities and overall direction of Russia. Let's
:21:28. > :21:30.talk about the future. You do speak to your father. I dare say that
:21:31. > :21:36.Russian government wants to know the answer to this question. If he is
:21:37. > :21:39.released in 2014, as you believe he will be, will he stay in Russia and
:21:40. > :21:45.fight for those values he has espoused for a long time, or will he
:21:46. > :21:49.walk away and embrace exile? I think that my father will need to make the
:21:50. > :21:59.decision of what he wants to do once he gets out of prison himself. But
:22:00. > :22:02.what I do know for myself is that it will be my first priority and my
:22:03. > :22:11.most important job, to try to convince him to leave Russia. I have
:22:12. > :22:20.not seen him for ten years. He has never seen my daughter. We need to
:22:21. > :22:24.reunite our family. The most important thing for me, is to make
:22:25. > :22:28.sure nothing stands in the way of that. In 2003, he knew what was at
:22:29. > :22:34.stake and he decided to fight. What if he decides to fight again inside
:22:35. > :22:37.his own country? I do not believe, and I'm really, really hoping that
:22:38. > :22:51.nothing would change, I don't believe that is his plan. Have you
:22:52. > :22:59.asked him directly? I did. He said I have a lot of debts that I need to
:23:00. > :23:02.pay to my family. What about literal debts, your father used to be the
:23:03. > :23:06.richest man in all Russia. I do not know what he has today, but he could
:23:07. > :23:14.launch legal action to recover some of the assets he believes were
:23:15. > :23:20.stolen from him. Is he going to do that? There are still people inside
:23:21. > :23:27.the Kremlin who fear that. It is very simple. My father has moved on.
:23:28. > :23:30.He turned the page on that life. He wants to be with his family. He
:23:31. > :23:33.wants to continue working on the sort of programmes he worked on
:23:34. > :23:40.before with the Open Russia Foundation. His business life is
:23:41. > :23:48.behind him. He will not try to get back any of the assets. There are
:23:49. > :23:52.many close watchers of the Kremlin who say there is no way he will be
:23:53. > :24:01.released as long as Vladimir Putin sits in the Kremlin. Is that not the
:24:02. > :24:06.truth? I really want to believe that is not the case today. What I'm
:24:07. > :24:12.really looking forward to, as an indicator, is the May of next year
:24:13. > :24:16.actually. A couple of months before my father is released. His friend
:24:17. > :24:19.and former business partner and his co`defendant, same case, same
:24:20. > :24:30.charges, he will be released on the 2nd of May. If he sees freedom, so
:24:31. > :24:32.will my father. We will watch as well. Thank you for being on
:24:33. > :25:00.HARDtalk.