:00:00. > :00:11.others. Those are the latest headlines. Now
:00:12. > :00:15.it is time for HARDtalk. We have a specially invited audience
:00:16. > :00:20.of 100 inspiring women from all over the world, and our special guest
:00:21. > :00:24.today on HARDtalk is one of the world's best`known female
:00:25. > :00:29.politicians, former EU Commissioner and Italy's Foreign Minister, Emma
:00:30. > :00:33.Bonino. For many years she has been a bold and outspoken activist for
:00:34. > :00:38.numerous causes, all with the same aim of trying to fight injustice,
:00:39. > :00:42.discrimination, poverty, disease and hunger. But when she looks around
:00:43. > :00:46.her native Italy, though she feel that the progressives like her have
:00:47. > :01:17.lost the fight against sexism and racism?
:01:18. > :01:27.Welcome to HARDtalk. Italy is one of the murdered a ban is to nations in
:01:28. > :01:32.so why is it such a tough place to be a woman? `` the most advanced.
:01:33. > :01:38.Because of tradition, the Conservative political environment.
:01:39. > :01:42.We are also a vast Lee Catholic country. It has a Conservative
:01:43. > :01:53.approach. But still there have been a lot of improvements. If I look
:01:54. > :01:56.backward 40 years ago, when I was a young girl, I cannot even recognise
:01:57. > :01:57.my country. So there is hope and room for improvement. But you
:01:58. > :02:02.mention those factors, but what about the Berlusconi factor? I am
:02:03. > :02:07.not so much concerned about the private life of a president
:02:08. > :02:14.Berlusconi. What is a bigger concern to me is the perceived bid female
:02:15. > :02:22.stereotyping. `` pervasive. It has become so entrenched. And Silvio
:02:23. > :02:27.Berlusconi operates the media. But also public. So that is what
:02:28. > :02:32.concerns me very much. You say there have in improvements. If you look at
:02:33. > :02:36.the World Economic Forum 's, the gender gap survey, Italy ranks at
:02:37. > :02:43.71, much lower than other comp report EU nations. It is true. So it
:02:44. > :02:48.is more sexist. I would say more traditional. On top of that, it
:02:49. > :02:53.applies in politics and in many others at theirs, and just because
:02:54. > :03:00.we are here, how many presidents or director generals are female in BBC?
:03:01. > :03:04.Not one. Emma Bonino, it looks at access for women in health,
:03:05. > :03:12.education, not just politics. The regional league. But you talk about
:03:13. > :03:15.the fact the media has rarely contributed to the sexual
:03:16. > :03:21.objectification of women. A summit in New York, which you attended, the
:03:22. > :03:25.Italian actress said, that we do not have the mall role models to which
:03:26. > :03:30.we can aspire to. The winning model is a young woman who is available to
:03:31. > :03:34.be corrupted, go to parties and the next two powerful man, and next day
:03:35. > :03:37.she is on the cover of all the magazines, she gets interviewed on
:03:38. > :03:42.TV and gets a fashion campaign, she becomes a star. That is the
:03:43. > :03:48.stereotyping that I was talking about. It is giving a terrible
:03:49. > :03:53.message to young girls and men, as if being a woman can only comply to
:03:54. > :03:59.this model. That has been my fight. Luckily I am not alone. There is a
:04:00. > :04:02.move in Italy that wants to overcome this stereotype and I am happy to
:04:03. > :04:11.say, that since then, things have been changing, V K Lee... On state
:04:12. > :04:16.television, which is powerful `` portraying a different kind of
:04:17. > :04:20.model. But a lot of people wander, and I do not want to go on about
:04:21. > :04:23.Berlusconi, but a lot of people wonder whether somebody like him or
:04:24. > :04:28.the kind of comments that he made could be have in re`elected five
:04:29. > :04:34.times, Prime Minister for seven years, let me remind you of a couple
:04:35. > :04:39.of things that he said. In 2010, he said one reason for investing in
:04:40. > :04:43.Italy was because we have beautiful secretaries in Italy, supposed
:04:44. > :04:49.girls. In April 2011, when asked whether they would like to have sex
:04:50. > :04:57.with me, 30% of women said yes, the other 70% said, what, again? That is
:04:58. > :05:01.the Prime Minister saying that. But the other question is, that is so
:05:02. > :05:06.entrenched in the sort of culture in my country that he has been ill at
:05:07. > :05:13.it. We have to macro things to fight. It is not one person. It is a
:05:14. > :05:18.culture that comes a long way. Do you accept that another major
:05:19. > :05:23.European country... It would not have happened? That a Prime Minister
:05:24. > :05:30.in power at time... It is difficult to say. But contrary to this, this
:05:31. > :05:34.is also the country, that thanks to my party and others, got the law on
:05:35. > :05:40.divorce back in the 70s, legalised abortion back in the 70s. You were
:05:41. > :05:44.instrumental in both of those. You have been a very outspoken person.
:05:45. > :05:49.So it means there is room for changing things. In democracies
:05:50. > :05:55.sometime, sometimes we go forward and sometimes we go backward. But
:05:56. > :06:02.you have to nurture what you really want. So it is not an easy task,
:06:03. > :06:07.nowhere in the world. In 2001, 2009, you were so cross about the lack of
:06:08. > :06:11.political space that the radicals like you were getting, that you went
:06:12. > :06:15.on hunger strike. You say women are fighting against this in Italy, but
:06:16. > :06:22.bitterly to lead. It was only in March that you had 100,000 women go
:06:23. > :06:27.on a protest march. That is a bit late in the day, is it? It is late
:06:28. > :06:33.but it is coming back. I prefer to see the positive side of it. I look
:06:34. > :06:37.backward, I see a period of great innovation, the 70s and 80s, I see a
:06:38. > :06:43.period of sort of everybody sleeping, in some way, even the
:06:44. > :06:49.feminist movement went a bit quiet. Now we are back. I think that is
:06:50. > :06:53.very important. I prefer to see the positive side. All my energy is to
:06:54. > :06:59.push forward. In fairy we had general elections in Italy. ``
:07:00. > :07:06.February. He leads a grand coalition. Because nobody won. As
:07:07. > :07:12.you said, things have got better. Women in Parliament went up to 30%.
:07:13. > :07:16.Seven out of the 21 Cabinet ministers are now women. But the
:07:17. > :07:24.fact of the matter is, it is getting better but from a fairly low base.
:07:25. > :07:28.Sure. If we were far ahead, I would spend less energy on these kind of
:07:29. > :07:32.issues. But it is still a puff place for a woman to be in power. The
:07:33. > :07:37.Speaker of the lower chamber in Parliament... Is there a place where
:07:38. > :07:49.there is an easy life all were men in power? If you know it, in a bid
:07:50. > :07:55.for me. `` for women. She gets threats, images of her being raped,
:07:56. > :07:58.her throat being slipped. Where did you have a major political figure
:07:59. > :08:03.getting that kind of. Not. But we have a brave minister, who get
:08:04. > :08:09.insulted or everyday and reacts back. She is friendly, making a
:08:10. > :08:15.major change in my country. You mention Cecile, who was born in the
:08:16. > :08:19.Democratic Republic of Congo, made minister of integration. But look
:08:20. > :08:24.what has happened to her, she goes to public meetings, she has bananas
:08:25. > :08:29.thrown at her. You had the Italian MEP, he said that she wants to
:08:30. > :08:32.impose her tribal traditions from the Congo, she seems like a great
:08:33. > :08:41.housekeeper but not a governor in a start. August 2013, Roberto, the
:08:42. > :08:44.current vice president of Italy, addressing the rally for the
:08:45. > :08:48.Northern league party, I love animals, but when I see pic is of
:08:49. > :08:52.her, I cannot but think of the features of an orangutan,
:08:53. > :08:58.her, I cannot but think of the the reaction was overwhelming. That
:08:59. > :09:05.is appalling. It is appalling. He apologised. What happened to him?
:09:06. > :09:09.Nothing. But the reaction has been overwhelming. She is paying a very
:09:10. > :09:15.tough price to make the culture of my country change. I really want to
:09:16. > :09:23.thank her for the courage... And because she is brave. But she is
:09:24. > :09:28.making my country change. Is she really making your country change? I
:09:29. > :09:32.put it you that if any politician made such comments, orangutan, for
:09:33. > :09:38.instance, housekeeper, it would be the end of his her career. Let's
:09:39. > :09:47.hope it will be. Do you accept that Italy... I am not sure. I have seen
:09:48. > :09:54.other politicians, unfortunately, attacking the Roma community in a
:09:55. > :09:58.very insulting way. I am saying that bad behaviour has to bring a more
:09:59. > :10:02.vocal reaction. That is what is happening. I see it as encroachment
:10:03. > :10:12.to go Paul Wade. What happened in the press? In the press, and in
:10:13. > :10:17.public opinion, there was a fantastic reaction that these things
:10:18. > :10:21.are not tolerable. I do prefer to have problems in public, and I
:10:22. > :10:26.prefer to have public confrontation, instead of a sort of quietness, in
:10:27. > :10:32.which nobody dares to stand for it. So at the end of it, I strongly
:10:33. > :10:35.believe that as in many other countries, particularly in the
:10:36. > :10:45.Mediterranean, we have a long way to go. But let's not think that nothing
:10:46. > :10:48.will come for free. When you are talking like that, that people
:10:49. > :10:52.should be more tolerant of immigrants, and people of different
:10:53. > :10:56.race, but when you look at opinion polls, up to 80% of Italian people
:10:57. > :11:02.are opposed to immigration. You are swimming against the tide. That is
:11:03. > :11:06.everywhere in Europe. That is one of the reasons were we talk about the
:11:07. > :11:15.southern borders of Europe, not only of Italy, nobody wants to be... I am
:11:16. > :11:19.afraid to be, populism is taking root all over Europe, and that is
:11:20. > :11:25.what worries me, because if it is only one country, the other one can
:11:26. > :11:30.help. But I am afraid it is taking root also in other countries, which
:11:31. > :11:35.is the final end of the project of Europe, what I thought was Europe.
:11:36. > :11:41.You say that, but the German interior minister has rejected this
:11:42. > :11:47.idea that Italy in particular has a problem. He says that Germany has
:11:48. > :11:54.946 refugees per 1 million population, Italy has 260. Your
:11:55. > :11:59.population is about 60 million? You are not overburdened. I am not
:12:00. > :12:07.talking that kind of burden. I'm talking about common responsibility
:12:08. > :12:12.of the southern border of Europe. They land in Lampedusa, or whatever.
:12:13. > :12:16.But what is happening in the southern Mediterranean, with
:12:17. > :12:24.poverty, turmoil, makes a problem that is for everybody. But we hear
:12:25. > :12:30.the mayor saying, please give us help, the Italian saying, please
:12:31. > :12:34.give us help. But it is not particularly overburdened. It is not
:12:35. > :12:39.the question of refugees. What we are underlying is the question of
:12:40. > :12:44.people who die at sea. We had the tragedy of land producer, that we
:12:45. > :12:52.had also 400 operations. `` and producer. Which were positive. 400
:12:53. > :12:58.surge in rescue operations in the sea, and then a tragedy happened. ``
:12:59. > :13:02.search and rescue. But what is happening, millions of people on the
:13:03. > :13:09.move, it is not a problem that can be tackled by Italy a loan. I will
:13:10. > :13:14.ask you about that issue in a moment. But to finish the point,
:13:15. > :13:18.which you say is a different one about immigration in Italy, Italy in
:13:19. > :13:22.particular, of EU countries, all Western countries, has an ageing
:13:23. > :13:29.population. The lowest birth rates, 1.2%. `` 1.2 on average. You need to
:13:30. > :13:36.hunt and 50,000 immigrants every year for the next ten years in order
:13:37. > :13:40.to field your skills will teach. `` 250,000. So politicians like you
:13:41. > :13:46.should make the economic case. But that is clear for everybody. It is
:13:47. > :13:51.clear to everybody. We have 5 million illegal immigrants in my
:13:52. > :13:55.country, who are by way, there are a lot of success stories, 5 million
:13:56. > :14:01.illegal immigrants. That is not the problem. The problem is in motion,
:14:02. > :14:05.feeling, sensation. A country that has been a country of huge
:14:06. > :14:09.immigration, which is not at all used to immigration that happened in
:14:10. > :14:14.one generation. It is a problem for Europe, for Italy and for Europe,
:14:15. > :14:20.that we must tackle, and I must say, there is no easy solution. No
:14:21. > :14:23.miracle solution. We are talking about the boat tragedy, hundreds of
:14:24. > :14:31.African migrants lost their lives in the Mediterranean.
:14:32. > :14:35.It has provoked a response from European leaders about what you do.
:14:36. > :14:42.In the former French Foreign Minister, has been writing in
:14:43. > :14:46.October saying" we have to reinforce the European border agency with
:14:47. > :14:52.money, resources, and with a one country, one boat mission. So that
:14:53. > :14:57.all EU members participate in the plan, and asylum seekers are
:14:58. > :14:59.allocated to all EU nations, not just those bordering the
:15:00. > :15:14.Mediterranean. " you agree with that. The southern border is a
:15:15. > :15:18.common responsibility. The rescue must be strengthened, which is not
:15:19. > :15:23.the case yet. So, waiting for Europe, we have done our job,
:15:24. > :15:30.decided our initiative, putting all the Navy we have at disposal to
:15:31. > :15:33.rescue people, but that is not the policy in Europe as far as
:15:34. > :15:38.immigration and asylum. It is not a common policy, every country wants
:15:39. > :15:44.to do its own national policy, and I think this is simply not effective.
:15:45. > :15:49.I hope that the tragedy will not be forgotten, in a nutshell. You think
:15:50. > :15:52.it will mean that you have now been given by the EU $40 million to help
:15:53. > :15:58.you deal with the influx of migrants, do you think Lampedusa was
:15:59. > :16:04.a game changer? I hope. I am working for that. Today, people have short
:16:05. > :16:08.memories, and there are new tragedies coming. If you just move
:16:09. > :16:13.to Syria, for instance, you would see 1 million refugees. So we are
:16:14. > :16:18.working to make that the tragedy is not forgotten, and pave the way for
:16:19. > :16:21.a new and more sensible policy. It will not be easy, there is no
:16:22. > :16:26.miracle solution, nowhere in the world, I have never seen immigration
:16:27. > :16:32.solved easily, nowhere. Not even in the US, or whatever. But we have to
:16:33. > :16:40.tackle the issue. I know one thing, this phenomenon is here to stay with
:16:41. > :16:46.us. African countries that border the Mediterranean are in political
:16:47. > :16:54.and economic turmoil. We need to sit down and rationally try to
:16:55. > :16:57.step`by`step be more effective. There are people who just want to
:16:58. > :17:02.stay in their home, and that is simply not going to work. We see
:17:03. > :17:07.what you are saying. We have seen Enrico Letta save, let's declare a
:17:08. > :17:15.day of national mourning for these people who died at sea, we also saw
:17:16. > :17:21.the Indonesian President visiting Lampedusa. But we also see that you
:17:22. > :17:25.have overcrowded migrant centres in Lampedusa, we look at Italy's half
:17:26. > :17:31.anti`immigration laws, set up in 2002, whereby the mere act of an
:17:32. > :17:38.Italian citizen helping an irregular migrant criminalises that action.
:17:39. > :17:44.Criminal eyes is the person if they give them shelter all work. But that
:17:45. > :17:47.is not really the conflict. The conflict is there, because according
:17:48. > :17:54.to the treaty, when people call us for asylum, they have the same where
:17:55. > :17:57.they want a silent. They have to stay where they ask for asylum. That
:17:58. > :18:06.is another limitation that is difficult to overcome. On `` the
:18:07. > :18:14.trouble is that they see Italy as a transit Country. They want to go to
:18:15. > :18:19.France, or elsewhere in Europe where their families are. We have more
:18:20. > :18:24.less seven million people on the move, just on the southern border.
:18:25. > :18:27.They are going to Bulgaria now, which is calling for help. Of
:18:28. > :18:32.course, in winter, perhaps they will not come by sea, they will go buy
:18:33. > :18:39.land, via Turkey or everywhere. That needs a long time policy, but zero
:18:40. > :18:46.problem does not exist. We have to accept the fact that this mobility
:18:47. > :18:58.of people, is a phenomena that is here to stay with us. It has been
:18:59. > :19:03.said that EU countries of lack of generosity and imagination. Do you
:19:04. > :19:09.think that the EU has really lost its edge. One example, Italy given
:19:10. > :19:14.very little in aid, failing dismally to meet its commitments for
:19:15. > :19:19.international aid set up by the EU. Yes, I think it has a lot to do with
:19:20. > :19:23.people becoming introverted and more provincial, and trying to defend
:19:24. > :19:28.what they have and being very scared of any new things. And it is making
:19:29. > :19:39.you a declining power on the world stage? Well, we're not common power,
:19:40. > :19:44.we don't always act in a very coherent and cohesive way. But it
:19:45. > :19:49.certainly has a lot to do with it. People become very scared. They
:19:50. > :19:55.think that if they close the border, they will be safe. Which is a wrong
:19:56. > :20:01.appreciation, it doesn't work like that. Emotionally, this is what is
:20:02. > :20:04.happening. You think that the EU, essentially, can only be a force on
:20:05. > :20:18.the global stage of its allies at Telford the US `` allies itself with
:20:19. > :20:27.the US? We can discuss with the Americans or others, but first we
:20:28. > :20:33.have to do find an agreement among the 28 EU member states. Will there
:20:34. > :20:39.be any coherence at the EU when it comes to the spying allegations. As
:20:40. > :20:43.you know, Angela Merkel has, many observers say, really reacted in a
:20:44. > :20:49.very angry way. Very rare for her, when there were allegations that the
:20:50. > :20:54.NSA of the US had been tapping her personal mobile phone. She said,
:20:55. > :20:59.friends don't spy on each other. She says, you have got to build trust
:21:00. > :21:03.amongst one another. Newspaper allegations in the Guardian in the
:21:04. > :21:09.UK say that 85 world leaders were included in this kind of
:21:10. > :21:13.surveillance. Was Italy, to your knowledge, one of those countries?
:21:14. > :21:18.To my knowledge, we are not. That doesn't make us different. Will you
:21:19. > :21:25.be asking the Americans? We did already. We had a bilateral with
:21:26. > :21:32.John Kerry at on Wednesday, and they acknowledge that they have a problem
:21:33. > :21:36.and agreed to fix it. They said President Obama is determined to
:21:37. > :21:40.find a solution to the problem. What did he say the nation of the problem
:21:41. > :21:45.was? He didn't elaborate, and I didn't ask either. What was
:21:46. > :21:50.important yesterday was that 28 head of state meeting yesterday,
:21:51. > :21:59.altogether, with one voice, asked and reacted for an explanation.
:22:00. > :22:04.Because Francoise Hollande was, and the Germans were angry, they said
:22:05. > :22:09.they wanted a meeting to work it out. Were you shocked by these
:22:10. > :22:22.revelations that came from Edward Snowden? I am not exactly shop.
:22:23. > :22:25.Maybe surprised. `` shocked. I want to ask you very quickly, on Syria,
:22:26. > :22:38.because you are one of the Friends of Syria, what happens to Assad?
:22:39. > :22:44.Briefly, but Bashar al`Assad. First, I'm really happy that now the
:22:45. > :22:49.political solution has become the mainstream after a period of
:22:50. > :22:52.military, whatever, intervention, and Italy has been consistent in
:22:53. > :22:57.calling for a political process. Impunity for the Assad regime? The
:22:58. > :23:00.reason why you make a conference is that you don't prejudge the
:23:01. > :23:07.conference at the beginning, otherwise it is useless to make a
:23:08. > :23:14.peace conference. That is why, today, the most important in is to
:23:15. > :23:17.bring the two to the table. One of the most challenging things is that
:23:18. > :23:21.the Syrian opposition is not yet, let's say, at that point to sitting
:23:22. > :23:27.at the table. Bringing it back to women, Italy has never had a female
:23:28. > :23:37.PM. When might we see one? That is not the issue. The issue is another
:23:38. > :23:44.one. Women really go on walking, standing, asking, pretending, that
:23:45. > :23:49.is the real issue. Thank you very much for coming on HARDtalk.