:00:00. > :00:00.detained around 90 people. Time now for HARDtalk with Zeinab
:00:00. > :00:18.Badawi. Welcome to HARDtalk. Its access to
:00:19. > :00:23.abortion a human right for women everywhere in the world? Women on
:00:24. > :00:26.Waves has provided abortions and contraception to women who live in
:00:27. > :00:32.countries where terminating pregnancy is illegal or restricted.
:00:33. > :00:36.The organisation was set up by Dutch doctor Rebecca Gomperts who hires a
:00:37. > :00:40.ship, registered under Dutch law, and sails into it that ``
:00:41. > :00:44.international water. How do she justify helping women ignore the own
:00:45. > :01:20.climate in their countries? Doctor Rebecca Gomperts, welcome to
:01:21. > :01:24.HARDtalk. Thank you very much. Abortion is a controversial issue,
:01:25. > :01:33.why did you take it up as a cause? As a woman and a doctor I met Winnie
:01:34. > :01:40.`` many women suffering from abortion. It is one of the main
:01:41. > :01:45.problems for women worldwide. I believe it is a right, the right to
:01:46. > :01:49.autonomy is violated if the women are not capable of deciding about
:01:50. > :01:59.our lives. You are struck by the figures, WHO says 21.7 million
:02:00. > :02:05.people that women have illegal abortions every year. Was that the
:02:06. > :02:11.figures you found? When I started the figures were even higher. When a
:02:12. > :02:16.medical abortion, abortion by pills, was introduced more widely
:02:17. > :02:25.the death rate has dropped significantly. It is not just the
:02:26. > :02:33.women who are dying. 8 million women have to be hospitalised and suffer
:02:34. > :02:37.from long`term consequences. But also girls have to quit school when
:02:38. > :02:44.they are pregnant and cannot have a safe abortion and are forced to
:02:45. > :02:49.carry a pregnancy to term. It is a social injustice, for me. You are
:02:50. > :02:54.responding as a women's campaigner but as a doctor you know a lot of
:02:55. > :03:01.your fellow doctors find abortion rather unpalatable. Some he
:03:02. > :03:05.represents this body and says there we are in a hospital trying to save
:03:06. > :03:10.the life of a premature baby born at 21 weeks and down the corridor in
:03:11. > :03:14.the hospital there are women coming in to abort babies at up to 24
:03:15. > :03:21.weeks, that is here in the UK. How can anyone say that make sense? They
:03:22. > :03:27.are two very different situations a woman is. When a child is wanted it
:03:28. > :03:31.is awful when there is a premature birth. When it is an unwanted
:03:32. > :03:36.pregnancy a woman should not need to die she was to have a safe abortion.
:03:37. > :03:43.That is what is happening. You see any conflict, as a doctor, rather
:03:44. > :03:47.than in prolonging life you are terminating it. I am there to
:03:48. > :03:52.support the life of the women. I do not see a conflict. When women have
:03:53. > :03:56.an unwanted pregnancy they will end it no matter what. Women that have
:03:57. > :04:01.money can go to a doctor that will help them for a lot of money. It is
:04:02. > :04:09.a social justice issue. For women who do not have access to
:04:10. > :04:12.information who are forced to do it unsafely with knitting needles or
:04:13. > :04:17.poisons. Abortion can be so safe, for example when it is done by
:04:18. > :04:26.medicines. It is the safest medical procedure that exists. You back
:04:27. > :04:29.abortion in any case, a lifestyle choice, not performing and abortion
:04:30. > :04:36.to save the life of the mother because the fetus is in some it not
:04:37. > :04:42.viable. I wonder whether you come in your late 20s, you are on the record
:04:43. > :04:46.as saying it had an abortion because it did not seek to live at the time
:04:47. > :04:51.to have a child. I am wondering whether your own experience
:04:52. > :04:55.influences what you do. I wish all women who had abortions would
:04:56. > :05:01.support abortion rights and stand for it. The reality in the world is
:05:02. > :05:11.that every woman has an abortion once in her lifetime. That is not
:05:12. > :05:16.true, is it, not every woman. Not every woman has an abortion, but
:05:17. > :05:19.statistically, the number of abortions, there are statistically
:05:20. > :05:22.every woman would have an abortion once in her lifetime. In the
:05:23. > :05:30.Netherlands, one in five women has an abortion. Some women have more
:05:31. > :05:35.than one and some have none at all. As a doctor as an abortion fighter I
:05:36. > :05:39.have had many times were a woman has come to me and said I am against
:05:40. > :05:43.abortion but my situation is different. It is that the
:05:44. > :05:48.fundamentals this issue. Nobody really knows what it is to have an
:05:49. > :05:54.unwanted pregnancy unless you are in that situation. That is why movie
:05:55. > :05:59.can decide this for anybody else. This is a decision that a woman can
:06:00. > :06:04.only make herself because she knows what it means to her and her
:06:05. > :06:10.life... Women to undertake the decision, navy does... Nervy knows
:06:11. > :06:18.what they would decide when they have situation. What people think is
:06:19. > :06:24.that most women who have abortions, most of them have children. You are
:06:25. > :06:35.now the mother of two young children. Did that change of use? It
:06:36. > :06:40.did not change might use in any way. `` view. I could even understand
:06:41. > :06:46.better. It is very demanding to have children. It is beautiful. But her
:06:47. > :06:50.mother wants to give their children everything she can when she feels
:06:51. > :06:56.she cannot give everything that she was to give to a child, that is the
:06:57. > :06:59.moment that she decides... You believe access to abortion is
:07:00. > :07:03.essentially a right for all women wherever they live. It is a human
:07:04. > :07:14.right. You know there are those like Dan Scanlon from a Pro Life UK
:07:15. > :07:25.charity that says they cannot be a human right to abortion because of
:07:26. > :07:28.the unborn child. There are two rights were talking up the rights of
:07:29. > :07:36.the unborn child versus the rights of the mother. The way that
:07:37. > :07:40.countries have solved that is to say that where the fetus has the
:07:41. > :07:45.possibility to survive outside the womb, which is 20` 24 weeks, that is
:07:46. > :07:51.where the right of the fetus and of the mother or a less equal Sir if
:07:52. > :07:57.the mother 's life is in danger she can still have an abortion. The rest
:07:58. > :08:04.of the time it is the woman's life that prevails. You see it as a
:08:05. > :08:10.clear`cut issue. Again quoting this British doctor, no one was to see
:08:11. > :08:13.backstreet abortions, but there is not a clear`cut answer. I wonder if
:08:14. > :08:19.you see something that is quite grey free lot of people as a fairly
:08:20. > :08:24.clear`cut issue. `` for a lot of people. I understand if people are
:08:25. > :08:32.feeling strongly, and most of these are religious views, I think science
:08:33. > :08:35.has shown that there is no consciousness of the fetus and
:08:36. > :08:41.things like that. I can understand they feel passionate about it. My
:08:42. > :08:44.reality is the reality of the women. No woman will be stopped by a
:08:45. > :08:53.law or anybody else when she needs to have an abortion. You can flip
:08:54. > :08:58.the science either way. Professor Stuart Campbell perform scans every
:08:59. > :09:04.day of the week says that what eight fetus can do or feel also warned we
:09:05. > :09:08.find it is earlier and earlier. I do not want to go down that medical
:09:09. > :09:15.issue. You see it as a clear`cut issue. Do you have any sympathy or
:09:16. > :09:20.understanding of the point of view? Do you see any merit in the argument
:09:21. > :09:25.of those opposed to abortion? Abortion is not a choice or write it
:09:26. > :09:31.is murder, the denial of the right life. You have any truck with that
:09:32. > :09:34.kind of view? I do not. I see that women is desperate and women are
:09:35. > :09:41.desperate to end their pregnancy and they need help. And women if they do
:09:42. > :09:50.not get proper medical care they will do it themselves and they will
:09:51. > :09:55.die as a result. Again, it is the women that are poor who do not have
:09:56. > :10:00.access to information or money, women who have money can travel to
:10:01. > :10:05.other countries... In 1999 new setup women on ways which gets a ship
:10:06. > :10:10.registered under Dutch law, because abortion is legal in Dutch law, you
:10:11. > :10:16.go to international waters and then women can come onto that ship and
:10:17. > :10:21.you can provide not a surgical abortions, but with abortion pills
:10:22. > :10:28.up to 6.5 weeks of pregnancy. You have helped quite a few women like
:10:29. > :10:32.that. A Dutch anti`abortion group says that what you do is more about
:10:33. > :10:39.promoting an ideology than helping people. What you say to that? I
:10:40. > :10:44.think that if we are talking about promoting knowledge `` ideology that
:10:45. > :10:47.is what he does. He is a very fundamentalist Christian. People
:10:48. > :10:52.want to impose their views on others. The difference with women on
:10:53. > :10:56.ways is that we give an option for women. We are not forcing anybody to
:10:57. > :11:00.have an abortion. The people who do not want to have an abortion do not
:11:01. > :11:05.have to have one. It is the women who need one who can access it. I
:11:06. > :11:10.think it is the difference between the anti`abortion rights groups and
:11:11. > :11:15.the abortion rights groups is that we are providing the option for
:11:16. > :11:19.decision. The people who are against abortion want to impose their views
:11:20. > :11:27.on what they believe is right and wrong on women. Women, whether they
:11:28. > :11:32.are Catholic, Muslim, whatever religion they have abortions. You
:11:33. > :11:41.say you provide choice. You have been to various countries, but in
:11:42. > :11:47.2005 you set up a women on wet. This was information provided on the
:11:48. > :11:52.Internet where you can prescribe the anti`abortion pill to women which
:11:53. > :11:57.you post to them. They have to answer 25 questions. And then you
:11:58. > :12:02.give them one of these two drugs. Isn't that dangerous allowing women
:12:03. > :12:10.to get access to this kind of medication? Went `` medical abortion
:12:11. > :12:16.is a very safe procedure. The pills are on the essential list of
:12:17. > :12:27.medicines, so they are recognised as a life`saving medicines. It is a
:12:28. > :12:33.safer than using penicillin. The accommodation of these drugs is very
:12:34. > :12:37.safe. You think there is no danger at all. If you look at the National
:12:38. > :12:41.abortion Federation website it talks about possible side effects of one
:12:42. > :12:47.of the drugs, pain, cramps, convocations, I read that it also
:12:48. > :12:50.may include infections and incomplete abortions that may
:12:51. > :12:57.subsequently require surgical procedures, suction, in other
:12:58. > :13:01.words... It is similar to a miscarriage and has the same health
:13:02. > :13:07.risks. Most women handle a miscarriage by themselves. 20% of
:13:08. > :13:15.pregnancies end in spontaneous miscarriage. What about the other
:13:16. > :13:22.80%? You can actually plan and be near a place where there is medical
:13:23. > :13:26.care. The incompleteness of the abortion pill that I am talking
:13:27. > :13:31.about, whereby this Federation says you may require suction and that is
:13:32. > :13:35.surgical, is a woman going to present herself in a country where
:13:36. > :13:41.abortion is illegal to say I did not finish my DIY abortion myself. We
:13:42. > :13:50.are advising women if they have complaints, and it is very rare if
:13:51. > :13:55.they have complaints, it is rare if is an incomplete abortion and need
:13:56. > :14:01.for a surgical abortion, we advise women to say they have a spontaneous
:14:02. > :14:05.abortion. The doctor will not see the difference. With the abortion
:14:06. > :14:09.with pills that is almost never a real medical emergency which needs
:14:10. > :14:16.to be addressed immediately. But do you know that? Another person, from
:14:17. > :14:20.the Irish Family Planning Association, these drugs are safe
:14:21. > :14:24.but women taking them on there own sometimes do not know what they are
:14:25. > :14:27.actually taking. You do not know what the consequences might be of
:14:28. > :14:35.some of those tens of thousands of women who have applied for these
:14:36. > :14:46.drugs through your website. Yes, we do know. We follow up. We know how
:14:47. > :14:52.it goes. You can only provide this for women who are up to nine weeks
:14:53. > :14:57.pregnant. Do you know if the women are more advanced? You do not know
:14:58. > :15:03.because it is very the Internet. This is a service based on trust.
:15:04. > :15:09.She could be 16, 18, 20 weeks pregnant. If I ask you if you are
:15:10. > :15:16.allergic to penicillin and you say no but you know you are... Every
:15:17. > :15:20.relationship between a doctor and a patient is based on trust. Women are
:15:21. > :15:25.usually very scared and concerned about that health. They do not know
:15:26. > :15:33.what he implication is if they're pregnant any longer. Some may not
:15:34. > :15:39.know. Especially if you have an adverse `` adolescent. We advise
:15:40. > :15:45.women to do an ultrasound before so they know how far along. But they
:15:46. > :15:57.may not want to present themselves to an ultrasound. I do not say they
:15:58. > :16:01.will not be these cases. The women who reach out to us either direct,
:16:02. > :16:08.have access to Internet. `` the correct. Most women are able to
:16:09. > :16:15.determine their pregnancy quite accurately. If you have an abortion
:16:16. > :16:22.as a woman, you face a prison sentence of five to ten years. A
:16:23. > :16:28.doctor, 15 years. How do you feel about helping women raped the laws
:16:29. > :16:35.of their own country? `` great the laws. For some women, this is the
:16:36. > :16:40.only option they have. They're extremely grateful. You are putting
:16:41. > :16:46.them at risk of being arrested. We do not know. If that is a problem,
:16:47. > :16:54.we men can present themselves to a hospital and say they have had a
:16:55. > :16:56.miscarriage. It is exactly the same. Virtue except you are helping them
:16:57. > :17:04.break the law because you think the law is a bad one. I do. If you look
:17:05. > :17:09.at it in the broader perspective of human rights, the way to healthcare
:17:10. > :17:18.is a human right. These women are denied. This happens in democratic,
:17:19. > :17:23.legitimate governments. Ireland, abortion is severely restricted.
:17:24. > :17:28.These governments have come into power, reflect things be different
:17:29. > :17:33.positions on abortion the country shares. It does not mean it is
:17:34. > :17:41.within the international human rights standards. I do not think the
:17:42. > :17:46.fact that the country is democratic... The majority cannot
:17:47. > :17:51.make this decision. You like to be part of the political campaign when
:17:52. > :17:59.it comes to discussing abortion in the country. You put abortion very
:18:00. > :18:09.high on the political agenda for the election, the following year. With
:18:10. > :18:14.the women in waves work, it is. Abortion was legalised in Portugal
:18:15. > :18:24.two years later. But a country like Morocco, 2012, you are blocked from
:18:25. > :18:34.entering the country. US heavily criticised by one particular NGO
:18:35. > :18:44.that supports abortion. But they said they want to stop clandestinely
:18:45. > :18:48.abortion because it is dangerous. They say your tactics are
:18:49. > :18:53.provocative, they create a scandal and they did not help his
:18:54. > :19:03.organisation and finds the cause for legal abortion. This has been a
:19:04. > :19:08.criticism. We worked with a group, a civil rights organisation in
:19:09. > :19:13.Morocco, who invited us to come. We only go to countries by the
:19:14. > :19:20.invitation of local women organisations. Before we came, he
:19:21. > :19:25.said he supported the campaign. Only when the ship came in, he withdrew
:19:26. > :19:30.the support. It came from internal political issues. He demonstrates
:19:31. > :19:36.the point that you have an indigenous organisation that does
:19:37. > :19:43.not believe luxury apportions the tech place because they endanger the
:19:44. > :19:49.lives of women. `` backstreet abortions take place. There are
:19:50. > :19:54.something like 78 deaths a year from unsafe abortions. He prefers a
:19:55. > :19:59.different method. He has a meeting lined up with parliamentarians in
:20:00. > :20:06.Morocco. Did you except that you are eye`catching, provocative tactics,
:20:07. > :20:10.as he says, are perhaps counter`productive and maybe there
:20:11. > :20:14.is an alternative way? There are women in Morocco who needs of
:20:15. > :20:18.abortions. The situation is interesting in Morocco. In the
:20:19. > :20:22.pharmacies, you can buy medicines that you can use to do and abortion
:20:23. > :20:28.yourself. Women did not know about this, the doctor did not know about
:20:29. > :20:32.this. One of the aims is to launch a hotline for women to cause to get
:20:33. > :20:36.information on how many of these drugs they need and how to take
:20:37. > :20:52.them. The hotline is getting a lot of calls. You are a Dutch doctor.
:20:53. > :20:56.Liberal views, quite different. People may think you are a Trojan
:20:57. > :21:05.horse, that you want to bring in liberal ideas on sexuality. Are you
:21:06. > :21:07.the right champion of this cause? We are working together with
:21:08. > :21:11.organisations that are fighting for the same causes. It is not like it
:21:12. > :21:17.does not exist at all in the society. There are groups fighting
:21:18. > :21:25.to legalise abortion in Morocco. We work with them. There are different
:21:26. > :21:28.Dix won the news. The doctor's tactics have not led to the
:21:29. > :21:33.legalisation of abortion for the past ten years. This was a different
:21:34. > :21:41.way with a different goal. We have had a lot of support from
:21:42. > :21:45.organisations and people in Morocco. A different way to achieve the goal,
:21:46. > :21:51.use a. You were an active member of Greenpeace. They have their campaign
:21:52. > :21:59.of civil disobedience. Generally speaking, using any kind of civil
:22:00. > :22:05.disobedience, our campaigns are acceptable if the objective is
:22:06. > :22:10.desirable? When it is about achieving human rights or a social
:22:11. > :22:19.justice, acting civil disobedience is a Dick that is acceptable. The
:22:20. > :22:28.problem at the moment is a lot of intolerance from governments to
:22:29. > :22:39.civil disobedience, like in Russia. Also Julian Assange. Do you think
:22:40. > :22:43.any tactics are acceptable? What about the topless campaigns in
:22:44. > :22:50.Russia. They use their sexuality this way. If that is their choice,
:22:51. > :22:55.and it does not harm anybody, I do not see why it is not acceptable.
:22:56. > :23:02.What is different about our work is that it is helping women. It is
:23:03. > :23:08.giving women the access to medical abortion is that they need. It is
:23:09. > :23:13.not just civil disobedience or a media campaign. It is really
:23:14. > :23:19.providing services. Where everyone stands on the abortion debate, you
:23:20. > :23:24.have shown extreme commitment to your callers. You have learned very
:23:25. > :23:31.little money personally. You find it difficult to raise funds because if
:23:32. > :23:37.women cannot afford to pay, they get the service for free. It is a
:23:38. > :23:47.nonprofit organisation. You struggle to make money. Do you ever feel like
:23:48. > :23:59.giving up? No. Every e`mail that we get from a woman in need of support,
:24:00. > :24:06.help, is the reason to continue. We receive more than 130 e`mails ``
:24:07. > :24:11.130,000 e`mails per year. A lot of women know how to find us. All over
:24:12. > :24:39.the world. They're the reason we are existing. Thank you very much.
:24:40. > :24:44.The damaging storm which we had during the early hours of Monday
:24:45. > :24:45.continues to spread East into