:00:00. > :00:15.elections. Now it is time for HARDtalk.
:00:16. > :00:19.Welcome to HARDtalk. Back in 2011, the small Gulf state of Bahrain seem
:00:20. > :00:25.to be on the brink of two modules change. The ruling Al Khalifa family
:00:26. > :00:29.faced unprecedented street protests and demands for democratic reform.
:00:30. > :00:35.Bahrain's security forces cracked down hard. The legal battle lines
:00:36. > :00:41.between government and opposition were drawn. `` political. 2.5 years
:00:42. > :00:46.on, has the Bahraini monarchy and the lessons and weathered the storm?
:00:47. > :00:50.My guest today is Ala'a al`Shehabi, an activist with the campaign group
:00:51. > :00:52.Bahrain Watch. Is there a middle ground between the state is grow and
:00:53. > :01:25.web revolution? `` status quo. Ala'a al`Shehabi, welcome to
:01:26. > :01:28.HARDtalk. When you look at what has happened in Bahrain since every
:01:29. > :01:36.2011, what is your overriding emotion? It is one of Mr opportunity
:01:37. > :01:40.to move for and take the country into a new democratic in a row. And
:01:41. > :01:45.fulfil the aspirations of the majority of the people. So
:01:46. > :01:54.disappointment, a sense of failure? Not on behalf of the people, but a
:01:55. > :01:57.sense that the regime has not the light on the currents taking place
:01:58. > :02:06.across the whole region. `` not capitalised. To move on and to get
:02:07. > :02:11.rid of a century old, to get over a century worth of struggle for
:02:12. > :02:16.democratic change. It is denying its own people the opportunity to become
:02:17. > :02:21.a modern, democratic state. The implication of that is that nothing
:02:22. > :02:30.has changed in Bahrain. But that is not true, is it? We are not close to
:02:31. > :02:34.democracy. That is a fact. When you say democracy, you are implying that
:02:35. > :02:38.your belief is that for Bahrain to achieve the modernisation that you
:02:39. > :02:44.talk about, there has to be an end to the monarchy, an end to the role
:02:45. > :02:48.of the Al Khalifas. I am saying there is now a popular protest
:02:49. > :02:52.movement and their right two strand of thinking within that popular
:02:53. > :02:56.protest movement. There is a strand that says there is a place for the
:02:57. > :03:02.ruling family, one that says there is no place. Which strand are you
:03:03. > :03:09.in? I believe the regime has sown the seeds and set in motion its own
:03:10. > :03:16.downfall. So you are in the strand which says the family have to go?
:03:17. > :03:19.When you kill people, you in mortar lies them as martyrs. You have
:03:20. > :03:27.created a legend of a historical icon. When it uses torrents of tear
:03:28. > :03:30.gas, it sets the feelings of despair and indignation, when it assumes
:03:31. > :03:33.that majority of the people are collectively guilty for something,
:03:34. > :03:40.it uses a policy of collective punishment, which means that
:03:41. > :03:45.everyone, indiscriminately, is targeted in the country. I believe
:03:46. > :03:50.it has set in motion the seeds of repression. It creates revolution.
:03:51. > :03:55.Your view, in the end, that the downfall of the Al Khalifas have to
:03:56. > :04:02.be R.N. 's positive future, that seems to be what you are saying. ``
:04:03. > :04:07.Bahrain's. It will involve the end of the ruling real family. If you
:04:08. > :04:12.took a different view, if you took a view that said the Al Khalifas has
:04:13. > :04:15.been under enormous pressure, and they have learned some very painful
:04:16. > :04:20.and difficult lessons, and things have begun to change in Bahrain, you
:04:21. > :04:26.would not be as negative as you are. They have lost popular faith. There
:04:27. > :04:34.is complete mistrust with its citizenry. The lack of willingness
:04:35. > :04:39.to reform is really what is threatening the regime itself. That
:04:40. > :04:46.is what I am getting too. There have been changes and there have been
:04:47. > :04:50.reforms. One only has to look at the reaction of the government to the
:04:51. > :04:55.violence in that period, after February 2011, and the eventual
:04:56. > :05:00.setting up of the independent enquiry, of the recommendations of
:05:01. > :05:06.that commission of enquiry, to see that change has happened. There is a
:05:07. > :05:13.very nice script. It is this pretence. The reality is, the Prime
:05:14. > :05:17.Minister that has been serving for 42 years continues to be in power.
:05:18. > :05:24.The King continues to issue a raft of royal decrees that sanction
:05:25. > :05:27.repression. The reality is that water is still systematic and
:05:28. > :05:32.continues. The reality is that many top`level officers responsible for
:05:33. > :05:39.systematic, all the violations that were initially described in the
:05:40. > :05:43.commission of enquiry's report, continue to be free and enjoy
:05:44. > :05:48.impunity and protection. You have made some very big claims, not least
:05:49. > :05:54.of which that you say that torture, continues unabated. You know that
:05:55. > :05:59.the government in Bahrain absolutely refutes that. We had the Minister of
:06:00. > :06:04.State of information saying, that is not the way that we do things, we
:06:05. > :06:08.are a civilised nation. They point out that their right new safeguards
:06:09. > :06:14.in place if there are complaints of torture, there are now procedures
:06:15. > :06:19.laid down in Bahraini law, which ensure that those complaints will be
:06:20. > :06:25.investigated. Again, those are words on paper. The reality is that people
:06:26. > :06:28.who have just been released from prison, have all described in detail
:06:29. > :06:35.the torture that has been carried out. Friends of mine who had just
:06:36. > :06:41.been released from prison describe atrocious reports of the torture.
:06:42. > :06:47.What about the independent police ombudsman? That's of cameras have
:06:48. > :06:53.been put in interrogation rooms? Police chiefs came in from the UK,
:06:54. > :06:57.the United States as well, to ensure that the lessons of 2011 were
:06:58. > :07:04.learned. Torture continues despite all of the boxes that appeared to
:07:05. > :07:09.have been ticked. The reality is that portrayal, as a broad
:07:10. > :07:13.definition, the Torrance of tear gas that police continue to use on a
:07:14. > :07:18.daily basis, and something that I have been campaigning... Tear gas is
:07:19. > :07:29.used in many parts of the world and it is rarely described as torture. I
:07:30. > :07:41.do not know what country imports three times the amount of citizens
:07:42. > :07:46.it has, the amount of tear gas. It is literally drowning the country in
:07:47. > :07:51.a cloud of tear gas. For every claim you make, there is a counterargument
:07:52. > :07:56.that the Bahraini government come out with. They point to
:07:57. > :07:59.institutional reform. There is a much better beefed up Independent
:08:00. > :08:04.human rights commission. They point to the ombudsman, the fact that very
:08:05. > :08:09.recently, the crown prince was given a more senior role inside the
:08:10. > :08:12.government. Everybody both inside and outside the government regard
:08:13. > :08:20.him as a key figure in the reform agenda. Tell that to a person who is
:08:21. > :08:26.sitting in an ICU unit because half of his goal has blown off because he
:08:27. > :08:30.was shot point`blank with a tear gas canister. People have been denied
:08:31. > :08:34.medical care. Tell that to a person who was sitting in this very chair a
:08:35. > :08:39.year ago and found him in a prison cell a month afterwards, for two
:08:40. > :08:45.years imprisonment. That is not reform by anyone's book. That is a
:08:46. > :08:49.nice script. I can understand why the government hires PR companies to
:08:50. > :08:53.make establishments like BBC throw these questions at human rights
:08:54. > :08:57.activists and political activists. Again, I am not claiming these
:08:58. > :09:06.things. They are very well documented. Let's consider what is
:09:07. > :09:13.actually happening on the ground. You are as aware as I am that there
:09:14. > :09:16.have been serious instances of violence perpetrated against the
:09:17. > :09:21.security forces and against other figures in the community in the last
:09:22. > :09:25.few months. Which are alarming. For example, the car bomb that was
:09:26. > :09:30.exploded outside a Sunni Mosque, in the summer. Two individuals, who
:09:31. > :09:37.have since been punished with life in prison. There is a security
:09:38. > :09:43.threat inside Bahrain, and it seems to come from extreme elements within
:09:44. > :09:48.the anti`government opposition. The government has crushed all it could
:09:49. > :09:55.outlets for peaceful decent. It has banned protest in the capital. They
:09:56. > :10:00.have arrested activists. You are in the UK but you go to Bahrain. You
:10:01. > :10:06.were in Bahrain not long ago. Were you arrested? I do not want this to
:10:07. > :10:10.be a bad omen, because you asked the same question to the person who was
:10:11. > :10:14.arrested at the airport when he returned to the country and he has
:10:15. > :10:19.not been released since. Are you writing off your chances of giving
:10:20. > :10:22.what you are saying to me, and the condemnation that you are issuing
:10:23. > :10:25.towards your own government, are you saying that you are writing off your
:10:26. > :10:31.chances of ring able to return to your own country? That is definitely
:10:32. > :10:36.a possibility. But I have every right to return to Bahrain and I
:10:37. > :10:40.will be doing so in the near future. But the risk is great and massive,
:10:41. > :10:45.and the likelihood is that all activists have put their neck out,
:10:46. > :10:51.they will get punished, and feel the hand of recrimination in some way.
:10:52. > :10:57.Travel bans are routine. A wrasse and family, loss of jobs. You can
:10:58. > :11:07.follow in your car. `` harassment. These are routine methods that the
:11:08. > :11:11.regime uses. Are you not in danger of exaggerating what the Bahraini
:11:12. > :11:18.government is doing? For example, the long`standing opposition
:11:19. > :11:22.movement inside the country is not banned from holding protest. It has
:11:23. > :11:27.its own offices, it has its own organisation, membership. It is
:11:28. > :11:35.allowed to operate. But what the government describes as dangerous,
:11:36. > :11:40.and terrorist, is that extreme element, they loosely call a part of
:11:41. > :11:43.the feathery 14th movement, which has moved beyond peaceful protest
:11:44. > :11:49.and appears to be intent, through the use of Molotov `` Molotov
:11:50. > :11:52.cocktails, car bombs, other weapons, intent on using violence
:11:53. > :11:57.against the government. I do not know what terrorist group rings
:11:58. > :12:01.people out on the streets in their thousands on a daily basis. They
:12:02. > :12:06.have projected very clear`sighted demands. That is for an accountable
:12:07. > :12:14.and democratically representative government. In terms of these claims
:12:15. > :12:21.of violence and so on, it is the violent oppression that people
:12:22. > :12:26.face, one person was arrested and kept in jail, the assistant
:12:27. > :12:31.president. The number one, he was also interrogated for having
:12:32. > :12:35.something as simple as an exhibition in their offices. They are
:12:36. > :12:41.continually facing the threat of being shut down, being ignored. Let
:12:42. > :12:45.me pin you down on the February 14 movement, and this idea of extremism
:12:46. > :12:51.taking root and direct violent action becoming more prevalent on
:12:52. > :12:56.the fringes. Just be clear about your own family. Your father, who is
:12:57. > :13:02.a long`time exile from Bahrain, Malcolm big dip in absentia, to a
:13:03. > :13:10.life term for overthrowing the government. `` now conflict did. He
:13:11. > :13:17.is closely associated with the February 14 movement. It is a
:13:18. > :13:26.movement. It has now `` not assigned a leadership. It is about an idea.
:13:27. > :13:31.Again, if one is to tease out the validity or otherwise of the
:13:32. > :13:35.government's claims, to fully understand the alliances that work
:13:36. > :13:39.within the Bahraini opposition. The government, and I am now quoting
:13:40. > :13:45.from the Gulf daily News, which is a very loyal, I am fair to say, sort
:13:46. > :13:51.of ally of the Bahraini government, it has identified your father as a
:13:52. > :13:56.key linchpin in the feathery 14th movement. It says that he is a
:13:57. > :14:02.co`ordinator with Iran, one of the most important foreign organisers of
:14:03. > :14:07.the group. Is that true? This is a state`run newspaper. The government
:14:08. > :14:15.has spent 30 million on 18 p are companies. `` PR. They have tried to
:14:16. > :14:16.influence the narrative and tried to connect opposition with Iranian
:14:17. > :14:24.agents. What about the allegation that he
:14:25. > :14:28.has been a co`ordinator with the run and in the past has had a close
:14:29. > :14:38.association with the opposition and the run. And with the reigning
:14:39. > :14:43.government. `` Irani government. The government enquiry has found there
:14:44. > :14:48.has been only involvement between the Irani government and the
:14:49. > :14:54.opposition. What Maggie did talk about the money spot by the Bahraini
:14:55. > :14:59.government on smear and PR. I have heard that before, it is important
:15:00. > :15:01.to get the truth of what people are very senior in the opposition
:15:02. > :15:10.movement in Bahrain and outside Bahrain really think and really won.
:15:11. > :15:17.Take another example, Ayatollah who was seen as a spiritual leader that
:15:18. > :15:22.is very important, you can go through his record and look at a
:15:23. > :15:35.whole host of quotes where he delivers praise to the Irani
:15:36. > :15:43.revolution and he said that AyatollahKhomeini's revolution
:15:44. > :15:54.transcended the country. Is that rhetoric increasingly part of the
:15:55. > :16:00.dialogue in the opposition. It has been today the most peaceful and
:16:01. > :16:04.straight forward movement. White the movement can evolve over time. And
:16:05. > :16:09.there is deep frustration that as you have characterised it, change
:16:10. > :16:12.has not come. I am wondering whether the sort of ideology and philosophy
:16:13. > :16:21.that I have just outlined to you" is now becoming more dominant in the
:16:22. > :16:28.opposition. There is a fear of change that if a democracy was in
:16:29. > :16:37.Bahrain, these changing forces from around will come and take over.
:16:38. > :16:42.Iran. We should be asking for a civil democratic state where
:16:43. > :16:48.people, where there is a system built unsystematic discrimination,
:16:49. > :16:51.structural criminality, the infrastructure's has been removed
:16:52. > :16:55.and dismantled and a civilised state is enacted to bring the Bahrainis
:16:56. > :17:06.back to the modern era. There was a pseudo` apart so `` apartheid
:17:07. > :17:09.state. The ruling family controls 40% of the most senior positions in
:17:10. > :17:14.the political system. They are reinventing themselves in those
:17:15. > :17:19.decisions of power. That is not the same thing as talking about
:17:20. > :17:23.apartheid. I come back to this point about the ideology of the opposition
:17:24. > :17:28.that there is an increasing sectarianism about the language
:17:29. > :17:35.coming from key figures in the opposition. This is no longer being
:17:36. > :17:39.characterised as a unified movement of Bahrainis to many greater freedom
:17:40. > :17:42.and different form of government, it seems to me that you use the word
:17:43. > :17:49.apartheid that is being characterised now is a fundamental
:17:50. > :17:58.sectarian face`off. There is an attempt to make it feel like that.
:17:59. > :18:00.You use the word apartheid. The government has entrenched and
:18:01. > :18:09.apartheid system based on a sectarian system where the Shia are
:18:10. > :18:11.disenfranchised from any decision`making in the country. They
:18:12. > :18:16.have been marginalised, unemployment is very high a month that
:18:17. > :18:19.population. In every level, from getting a building permit to
:18:20. > :18:28.obtaining government contracts, there is an unset or that if you are
:18:29. > :18:32.a Shia you are removed and not considered. You are a noncitizen or
:18:33. > :18:36.some citizen. Members of the ruling party enjoy the privilege and have
:18:37. > :18:40.squandered the wealth and have a third of the wealth over the last
:18:41. > :18:43.century and that has gone to the ruling family. These are key
:18:44. > :18:49.questions of inequality that exist today. That needs to be rectified
:18:50. > :18:55.through a fundamental change in the current system. As you outline,
:18:56. > :19:00.everything fundamental that you say needs to change in Bahrain. That
:19:01. > :19:02.word that he used before, revolution, revolutions and we have
:19:03. > :19:07.seen in the Arab world over the last few years. They tend to lead to
:19:08. > :19:13.violence, chaos and in this `` instability. The message is not from
:19:14. > :19:19.just the Bahraini government but from Saudi Arabia and elsewhere is
:19:20. > :19:21.that to avoid dangerous chaos and instability, there must be a
:19:22. > :19:25.dialogue and the government has tried to proceed with a dialogue
:19:26. > :19:29.with the opposition, they have tried to establish it going back to
:19:30. > :19:36.February this year. Currently, the opposition don't want to talk about
:19:37. > :19:41.it. Will that change? Having you talk if the president calls his
:19:42. > :19:50.political opposition leaders and put them in jail. How can you have a
:19:51. > :19:55.think tank. They have released one and they say they want a novel one
:19:56. > :19:59.who is a major player in the opposition movement, I want him to
:20:00. > :20:05.be at the table, he is saying we want to be at the table. For the
:20:06. > :20:11.Bahrainis to find a way out of the crisis, dialogue has to happen.
:20:12. > :20:16.Clearly not a self`assured monologue as it has been described recently.
:20:17. > :20:20.This is an attempt to distort, delay and divert the need for change in
:20:21. > :20:25.the country. Democratic transition and reform can take place almost
:20:26. > :20:33.instantly. This dialogue, the demands are very clear, they are not
:20:34. > :20:38.negotiable. I asked you about the movement at the beginning because I
:20:39. > :20:49.`` the mood at the beginning because I was wondering about how depressed
:20:50. > :20:52.you may be. . The UK sent a minister to Bahrain to talk about the close
:20:53. > :21:01.ties with that country to praise some of the progress that has
:21:02. > :21:03.happened. And to initiate a new round of cultural and trade
:21:04. > :21:10.exchanges. Whenever you say, it doesn't appear that the
:21:11. > :21:15.international community wants to see anything other than the colleagues
:21:16. > :21:22.is in power involved in some sort of process. That is what the outside
:21:23. > :21:26.world one. Specifically the British. They have been the backbone of the
:21:27. > :21:31.family for the past two centuries. You don't think that Barack Obama is
:21:32. > :21:37.dying to see instability there? Everybody would like an orderly
:21:38. > :21:40.reforming these Arab countries. They are so fossilised and brittle that
:21:41. > :21:48.they are incapable of bringing that reform themselves. The king promised
:21:49. > :21:57.in 2001 a constitution in which she received 19 .4% unanimous vote `` 98
:21:58. > :22:00..4%. He amended the constitution and brought in a new constitution a year
:22:01. > :22:07.later, he missed out on the chance to reform himself into really move
:22:08. > :22:12.the country forward. Again, scripted reform sounds very good on paper. It
:22:13. > :22:16.has taken a century to deliver and we still don't see the effects and
:22:17. > :22:24.the promise is taking place in the country. Bahrain Watch has tried to
:22:25. > :22:28.document it and to keep tabs on the government. The reality is
:22:29. > :22:33.completely different. The role of the US... We are almost out of time,
:22:34. > :22:38.to sum up, it sounds to me that you are saying that is only one way out
:22:39. > :22:45.of this for Bahrain and that is revolution. Violent revolution. Is
:22:46. > :22:51.that what you are saying? Revolution isn't necessarily, it is a state of
:22:52. > :22:59.mind, it is about people refusing to being dominated by the moniker the.
:23:00. > :23:04.`` monarchy. We know from the Arab world, revolution, tends to lead to
:23:05. > :23:12.violence in the Middle East. Is that what you want for the future? It is
:23:13. > :23:19.the regime that has been using the well`documented violence, torrents
:23:20. > :23:25.of tear gas, 2 million canisters of tear gas coming from South Korea and
:23:26. > :23:31.we are campaigning against that, it is leading to the death in blood. We
:23:32. > :23:33.have two end there. Thing`macro we think it very much.