:00:00. > :00:15.it was mortifying to give evidence. Now it's time HARDtalk.
:00:16. > :00:20.Welcome to HARDtalk. Mental illness is the invisible scourge of modern
:00:21. > :00:25.life and it comes with a stigma. To admit to depression or any other
:00:26. > :00:29.illness of the mind has been to risk being labelled as weak,
:00:30. > :00:38.self-indulgent or mad. My guess today was to change that. Ruby wax
:00:39. > :00:40.made her name as a comedian. Depression took her into
:00:41. > :00:42.neuroscience and psychotherapy. Mental illness raises difficult
:00:43. > :01:19.questions. Had she finally enters? Ruby wax, welcomed the HARDtalk. You
:01:20. > :01:28.have made one heck of a career shift from television star to student of
:01:29. > :01:33.the brain in neuroscience. Does amusing and entertaining people no
:01:34. > :01:37.longer matter to you? I'm still entertaining them but I am now
:01:38. > :01:45.talking about the brain. I think people now crave information and
:01:46. > :01:48.what could be more interesting than the ?3 thing that is sitting on your
:01:49. > :01:54.head. Brian Cox can study the stars but there is nothing more
:01:55. > :02:02.fascinating. Now I take it on tour and I explain the journey. Nobody
:02:03. > :02:07.else. Your admission, if I can put it that way is to try to explain to
:02:08. > :02:12.people how the brain works and how that can be linked to issues of
:02:13. > :02:19.mental illness. In an entertaining way. I had a show about mental
:02:20. > :02:23.illness which I have toured for seven years to various countries and
:02:24. > :02:27.that was a bit about mental illness. This one is about everybody's brain
:02:28. > :02:32.because I should tell you how that started. The other one. The other
:02:33. > :02:38.shows started because comic relief said they they could -- asked of the
:02:39. > :02:43.could take a photo for me. I thought it would be small but it ended up
:02:44. > :02:48.being a gigantic spoken -- poster which said it is this woman has
:02:49. > :02:52.mental illness, please help. I decided that I will make a show and
:02:53. > :02:58.make it look like it was my publicity poster. You literally
:02:59. > :03:03.became the poster woman for mental illness. You were mentally ill,
:03:04. > :03:07.let's get that out of the table now. You suffer all of your life from
:03:08. > :03:12.sometimes very severe depression. The thing about oppression and why
:03:13. > :03:16.it has a stigma is that you don't have it all the time. This is why
:03:17. > :03:20.people think that if it comes and goes, perked up, you can pull out of
:03:21. > :03:25.it. It is an episodic illness. Luckily, I was not working when I
:03:26. > :03:29.had it because that would be impossible. People say to me, does
:03:30. > :03:35.it have anything to do with working in show business? I say one in four.
:03:36. > :03:39.That is Mr Somalia, that is somebody in a mud hut. That is around the
:03:40. > :03:48.world. It is not about sadness. It is about a deadness. It is no
:03:49. > :03:52.movement or feeling, it is like being filled with cement. It is a
:03:53. > :03:57.disease of the brain. You have talked about the dead shark eyes in
:03:58. > :04:04.people who have depression. Do you think you can look at people and
:04:05. > :04:08.know pretty much was sure whether they are suffering from depression.
:04:09. > :04:12.Completely. That is why when I am with my people. Because we can see
:04:13. > :04:17.it, we don't have to endlessly say, I am fine when somebody asks you how
:04:18. > :04:23.you are. We know we are on the dark side. That is how you feel about
:04:24. > :04:28.people who share this affliction? You don't have to explain endlessly
:04:29. > :04:37.about why it is so difficult to get up. They know. Teachers should have
:04:38. > :04:41.photographs of ice in their -- eyes in their office silicon spotted in
:04:42. > :04:49.children. It is not pubic tea or sadness, it is an illness. You have
:04:50. > :04:52.ideas about how the public better deal with mental illness and
:04:53. > :04:56.depression. Before we go into that, I want to take you back as it seems
:04:57. > :04:59.to me what you have done by writing about it extensively in memoirs and
:05:00. > :05:05.a book that is specifically about the workings of the brain, what you
:05:06. > :05:10.have done is examine yourself very closely. I wonder when you look at
:05:11. > :05:13.your own life from the beginning until now. Do you feel that you
:05:14. > :05:23.understand yourself and you completely? This is what
:05:24. > :05:28.neurosciences. There is no self. We're not like a plane crash with a
:05:29. > :05:32.black box. There are many selves and everything is constantly changing.
:05:33. > :05:37.That is something that I would like the public to know. That is what
:05:38. > :05:43.I've learnt at university at Oxford. This mass is changing and we are not
:05:44. > :05:48.slaves to our genes. The fact that I went to Oxford and I did not
:05:49. > :05:53.graduate nursery school is more proof of neural plasticity than I
:05:54. > :05:57.can prove. I was not a bright kid and when you get older and curious,
:05:58. > :06:01.it is about curiosity rather than saying this is what I am. We love to
:06:02. > :06:08.label ourselves. I'm a victim or a bruiser. Everything is possible. You
:06:09. > :06:11.grow more information. That is the idea of the brain is played out
:06:12. > :06:20.there can be reshaped and moulded is a powerful one. You have stressed
:06:21. > :06:24.the ability to change and you say that we are not slaves to our genes
:06:25. > :06:28.but are we to some extent -- some extent slaves to our upbringing and
:06:29. > :06:36.environment and the way that in the early years our parents raise us. I
:06:37. > :06:42.have the ablest of madness. You can't top my parents. The Oscar
:06:43. > :06:49.winners. Why? Hysterical. Bringing the world with them to bring into
:06:50. > :06:52.our kitchen. Civilised people don't bring St Denis building! She wanted
:06:53. > :06:58.me to take a shower outside of the House. She and your father escaped
:06:59. > :07:04.before the Nazis took over Austria and they came to the midwest of the
:07:05. > :07:09.United States. You are a Midwestern girl but you are living with parents
:07:10. > :07:12.that never mentioned what went on. I did not know what they played mental
:07:13. > :07:16.volleyball with me. If they had explained with me. You can say
:07:17. > :07:21.people are traumatised from the war but they were not really, they got
:07:22. > :07:27.out early. I have met people from the Holocaust. They say, listen, if
:07:28. > :07:30.you are saying before you go and you're not traumatised, that will
:07:31. > :07:36.reflect in your personality after the war. To have both parents, we
:07:37. > :07:40.used to call them scud missiles because they would shoot over from
:07:41. > :07:47.America. I tried to get into Europe and my parents try to get out. May
:07:48. > :07:54.maybe the fearfulness they felt throughout their lives because of
:07:55. > :07:57.what they knew of what they had its gates -- skate and the loss of
:07:58. > :08:01.community and homeland, did that fearfulness mean that you never
:08:02. > :08:09.really felt their approval or affection all of? It could be that
:08:10. > :08:13.they were very jealous because I was a child of the 60s. Imagine, you are
:08:14. > :08:19.totally persecuted and then the party starts. I can imagine. My
:08:20. > :08:25.mother was very beautiful. She lost her heyday. She was running. I can
:08:26. > :08:29.imagine they were quite envious. I forgive them, for god sake. I know
:08:30. > :08:33.they were mentally ill and in those days there was no label. They decide
:08:34. > :08:40.your mother was having a change of life. For 87 years? That are so
:08:41. > :08:42.important in a sense my understanding of you. You say you
:08:43. > :08:47.now accept and know your parents were mentally ill. Did they make you
:08:48. > :08:52.a mentally ill? If you don't have the gene. If it is not expressed,
:08:53. > :08:57.you can have parents that are hailing from the trees, you won't
:08:58. > :09:01.get it. If you do have the gene lacking, I am making it simple, and
:09:02. > :09:07.there is an abusive parental upbringing. I would say, bingo,
:09:08. > :09:15.chances are big bets on the could happen. Trauma is something else.
:09:16. > :09:20.Depression certainly happens when it is a combination of upbringing and
:09:21. > :09:24.nurture and nature. You were a child that was insecure in the US, quite
:09:25. > :09:28.shy, did not have a whole lot of friends and yet something clicked
:09:29. > :09:32.with you. You found a way of reaching out to people and becoming
:09:33. > :09:40.popular. It seemed to revolve around making people laugh. That is a
:09:41. > :09:45.safety net. I always think that with my background I would have ended up
:09:46. > :09:49.a comedian or a serial killer. There was not a chance. Because I found
:09:50. > :09:53.this way of expressing myself I could relieve the poison and also
:09:54. > :09:57.entertain people because if you whine all of the time people will
:09:58. > :10:02.turn away. If you are funny, everything is acceptable. That is
:10:03. > :10:05.why I could do a show about mental illness and I did it for people in
:10:06. > :10:10.institutions and they accepted because I was honest about mine and
:10:11. > :10:15.they knew I was one of them. I want to get to reaching out to people who
:10:16. > :10:18.have mental illness in a moment, I am fascinated by this career that
:10:19. > :10:22.you got into an made a huge success of which was about comedy. You did
:10:23. > :10:29.some stand-up and you are in sitcoms and you became a major television
:10:30. > :10:33.star, doing interviews which were amusing and entertaining. You create
:10:34. > :10:38.a persona because your first one does not have a chance. Especially
:10:39. > :10:46.if the parents always say you are sad. Or who will marry you? These
:10:47. > :10:50.voices were sometimes, either you go under or you put the throttle into
:10:51. > :10:57.first gear. In the prove everybody wrong, my life was a act of revenge.
:10:58. > :11:02.You have the job of a rottweiler. Which is great. It also means you
:11:03. > :11:08.can crash into a wall. None of us know the tipping point. Would you
:11:09. > :11:12.have been a success if you are a happy person? Lyrup comedians with
:11:13. > :11:18.perfectly normal backgrounds. It is a rhythm. It is why somebody is a
:11:19. > :11:21.mathematician. Comedy is about hearing jazz rather than a steady
:11:22. > :11:28.beat. Didn't have to be unhappy to be a good comedian? It has to do
:11:29. > :11:35.with rhythm. You don't have to be unhappy. You are unhappy. At 16 I
:11:36. > :11:42.knew that I would not be prom queen but I knew that comedy would be why
:11:43. > :11:47.weigh in. I could get all of the attractive boys. That was my
:11:48. > :11:56.seduction. It worked when I came to England. I was a pathetic actress
:11:57. > :12:02.but I was funny. Do a funny when you not feeling low. With depression,
:12:03. > :12:07.when you feel low you are low and when you're okay you are however you
:12:08. > :12:12.are. You were a driven person. You call yourself a rottweiler. You have
:12:13. > :12:15.written things that suggest that you will not a nice person at the heart
:12:16. > :12:19.of your suggesting you have written things like for example, whatever
:12:20. > :12:23.your success, if I see someone with more than I have, I get the kick in
:12:24. > :12:31.the stomach, the stabbed in the heart. Envy, Korean security. Note,
:12:32. > :12:38.envy. The desire to be better and get more. We live in the kind of
:12:39. > :12:42.society because magazines hold these images, we live with the disease
:12:43. > :12:48.called entitlement. Now everyone thinks they have a shot. That is why
:12:49. > :12:54.you have people in the X factor with the talent of a toothpick. Everyone
:12:55. > :13:02.wants a shot at it. I don't think it was any different for me. Everybody
:13:03. > :13:05.goes was show business for some reason because you get a lot of
:13:06. > :13:15.money. I did not have more than anyone else. Over the edge as far as
:13:16. > :13:18.mental illness? No, in as far as deciding for yourself that while I
:13:19. > :13:21.have this career, it is actually doing the great damage, I have got
:13:22. > :13:26.to stop trying to entertain people and make them laugh. I need to
:13:27. > :13:31.reassess and what you decided to do was go to university and take the
:13:32. > :13:37.study of the brain very seriously. I want to see what made you change. I
:13:38. > :13:43.wanted to leave the party before the party left me. There is nothing more
:13:44. > :13:46.tragic than somebody in show business who is so addicted that
:13:47. > :13:52.they cling on for dear life and say, please make a documentary about my
:13:53. > :13:59.gallbladder. You did for a while. I do not want to go through difficult
:14:00. > :14:04.stuff, but you did for a while. That was my farewell to show business.
:14:05. > :14:10.You have to go that low before you can get off the heroin of being in
:14:11. > :14:18.television. So with sharks in a cage with Richard E Grant? It was
:14:19. > :14:24.humiliating. Some people don't mind eating bugs, or showing their
:14:25. > :14:30.insides inside of a house. That is when I knew this was going to
:14:31. > :14:35.happen. This is important, why on earth did Ruby Wax say 'yes' to
:14:36. > :14:38.Celebrity Shark Bait? Because I was so addicted to being famous, it
:14:39. > :14:42.becomes an addiction, you don't even have to do anything for a living.
:14:43. > :14:48.People say one line, you want a cup of tea? You want a lie down? You are
:14:49. > :14:57.infantilised. You haven't got the muscle to even do a job. You say it
:14:58. > :15:01.was the lowest of the low. That's not why I left. At a certain age you
:15:02. > :15:04.had better jump to the next invention of yourself. Unfortunately
:15:05. > :15:10.we live so long, it just goes on and on and on. I should be dead by now.
:15:11. > :15:13.You have to do something else to keep the brain going. You
:15:14. > :15:18.consciously thought you were going to change and reinvent yourself. And
:15:19. > :15:21.get smart. When I was young, because of the trauma, I couldn't remember
:15:22. > :15:24.things, so I didn't really read, I was terrible in school, because when
:15:25. > :15:31.you live with that kind of stress, the first thing to go is the memory.
:15:32. > :15:34.By the way kids should, teachers should know that when they push
:15:35. > :15:39.their kids for exams, the first thing that goes down is the memory.
:15:40. > :15:42.So this was a chance, I now knew I was liberated, I could go back and
:15:43. > :15:48.fill that void and suddenly become academic. You did. Reading your
:15:49. > :15:51.book, 'Sane New World', which interestingly has a lot of science,
:15:52. > :16:00.and you go into some detail about the way the brain works, the
:16:01. > :16:06.circuitry, the key chemicals. But it's funny. But it is very personal
:16:07. > :16:09.and it informs about the way the brain works. Going back to the
:16:10. > :16:13.plasticity and the flexibility of the brain, you seem to be saying
:16:14. > :16:22.that we all have the capacity to rewire ourselves, to change the way
:16:23. > :16:26.our brain works. I think a lot of people will be puzzled about how we
:16:27. > :16:31.could do that. Well, it's very difficult unless you put it in, kind
:16:32. > :16:35.of, simple, kind of, stick figures. Be as simple as you like because
:16:36. > :16:39.that works for me. There's a theory that states you come into the world
:16:40. > :16:43.and you're not hardwired, you don't necessarily have to go out the way
:16:44. > :16:46.you came in. That your experience and how you think about life
:16:47. > :16:51.actually changes, first of all, the neuron connections, which actually
:16:52. > :16:55.are who we are. If I do something over and over again my neurons
:16:56. > :16:58.connect. If I don't constantly change that I'm at the mercy of
:16:59. > :17:04.every time this happens I react that way. Some women say all men are
:17:05. > :17:07.bustards. "I'm always a victim." Yes, sweetheart, you went on a
:17:08. > :17:16.serial killer website, what did you expect? We have to see how stuck we
:17:17. > :17:19.are. So you change behaviours by? Becoming aware, watching how you
:17:20. > :17:27.think, not making a judgement and leaving a gap before you do your
:17:28. > :17:30.usual trigger or reaction. You start to watch it a little bit. So it
:17:31. > :17:38.gives you a chance to unwired those heavy habits. I think I'm getting
:17:39. > :17:43.this. You're saying by being very conscious of the way you respond to
:17:44. > :17:48.challenges, the way you apply... Without giving yourself a hard time.
:17:49. > :17:53.You can change the physiology of your brain. People around the world
:17:54. > :17:56.will be interested in this, you seem to be saying your approach is much
:17:57. > :18:16.more behavioural and changing the way you see things and think about
:18:17. > :18:20.things than it is about drugs. I am on drugs. Did you ever use drugs? Of
:18:21. > :18:24.course, I'm on antidepressants. You are? Of course. It is like saying to
:18:25. > :18:27.a diabetic, "Are you kidding, you're on insulin?!" It is a disease of the
:18:28. > :18:30.brain, if it was Alzheimer's, you wouldn't say, "Come on, you can
:18:31. > :18:33.remember what happened yesterday." You can't even do cognitive therapy
:18:34. > :18:35.and mindlessness if you're in a depressed state. When people say
:18:36. > :18:38.exercise, that's ridiculous, you're in a box and you can't move. "When
:18:39. > :18:43.I'm better I will find something preventative," I will think. The
:18:44. > :18:48.drugs and the therapies work together? Drugs don't work for
:18:49. > :18:51.everybody, therapy doesn't work for everybody, I'm putting all my eggs
:18:52. > :18:56.in... Not all in one basket, something is going to work. Here's a
:18:57. > :18:58.personal question, you describe the degree to which your parents and
:18:59. > :19:10.particularly your mother's behaviour did a lot to shape your early mental
:19:11. > :19:14.development. You've got kids of your own, how have you used what you now
:19:15. > :19:21.know about the brain and the mind to try to shape your kids in the best
:19:22. > :19:24.way? I can feel the urge and urges that maybe were passed from my
:19:25. > :19:28.mother or father, which are quite aggressive, I feel myself even
:19:29. > :19:36.wanting to strike them and the words they used to say, "How dare you, you
:19:37. > :19:40.know what I've given you". I can feel it, but because I understand
:19:41. > :19:43.it's not really me, it's a habit. It worked in the past because of my
:19:44. > :19:51.aggression making me knock down doors. But when I feel that urge I
:19:52. > :19:58.don't act on it, thoughts aren't facts. I realise it's a trait. But
:19:59. > :20:01.if I pull myself back and actually be kind to myself and realise that
:20:02. > :20:06.it is just a tape recording, you can't whip yourself because then
:20:07. > :20:11.you're stressed about stress. Do you think you're a good mother? I made
:20:12. > :20:13.sure my kids never saw me, when they were young, when I was seriously
:20:14. > :20:17.depressed, I didn't want them frightened. So my husband would say
:20:18. > :20:31.'mummy is on holiday', or making a documentary, I was lucky. They
:20:32. > :20:34.didn't have a fear of it. There are people who listen to you and your
:20:35. > :20:41.missionary efforts to get people to understand depression. And the
:20:42. > :20:46.brain. And the brain, all of our brains. All of us are suffering now.
:20:47. > :20:50.I understand that. It is not just people acknowledged as mentally ill,
:20:51. > :20:54.it is about everyone who one way or another have issues. Negative
:20:55. > :20:59.voices, the frenzy of not finding any breaks. Your belief that
:21:00. > :21:05.depression is such a pervasive thing. One in four. One in four, you
:21:06. > :21:12.said, that has actually frustrated and annoyed some people. Janet
:21:13. > :21:16.Street Porter. I know Janet. I don't know if you have discussed this with
:21:17. > :21:19.her, but not so long ago she wrote a powerful piece, not directed at you
:21:20. > :21:23.personally, but basically she said she is sick of the misery movement.
:21:24. > :21:25."How many of these high-profile sufferers of mental illness are
:21:26. > :21:33.middle-class, highly successful and comfortably off?". 'There's
:21:34. > :21:42.something slightly repellent about this epidemic of middle-class
:21:43. > :21:45.breastbeating', she said. By saying that, do you know the highest
:21:46. > :21:48.suicide is for young men under 30? By putting even more shame on top of
:21:49. > :21:52.this, and she's from Yorkshire, tell her to knock on somebody's door, it
:21:53. > :21:56.will be their mother or their cousin, are they breastbeating or
:21:57. > :22:00.complaining? They're not even coming out of their house because someone
:22:01. > :22:08.put shame on it. Kids cutting themselves, highest suicide rate
:22:09. > :22:11.ever. I want to bring this back to you personally. You have spent so
:22:12. > :22:15.many years thinking about the brain and the way that our minds work and
:22:16. > :22:22.about how to try to repair minds that aren't functioning well. What
:22:23. > :22:25.about yourself? After all this talk of living in the moment, the
:22:26. > :22:32.mindfulness that you try and keep, are you really at peace with
:22:33. > :22:39.yourself now? No, there is no bliss. There is no phone call from Oprah.
:22:40. > :22:42.That doesn't exist, it's a fantasy. You can't get to a point where you
:22:43. > :22:45.can leave your mental illness behind? Your mind will never be
:22:46. > :22:48.empty, when it is, you're dead. There's all these fallacies about
:22:49. > :22:52.being in the present, you're not always meant to be in the present.
:22:53. > :22:55.If you were, you would be a head of lettuce. With all this incoming bad
:22:56. > :22:57.news and needing to be twerking as well as Miley Cyrus, being
:22:58. > :23:05.beautiful, where there's an onslaught, we can find our own
:23:06. > :23:08.breaks. We don't stay in that break, but we have to know our tipping
:23:09. > :23:13.point. I can't be Bill Gates, I'm not going to kill myself for it. We
:23:14. > :23:18.have to say, this is where I'm going to rest. When you rest, you've got
:23:19. > :23:21.more energy to go back in again, a kid shouldn't be up all night
:23:22. > :23:27.studying, he should pull back for 20 minutes, sit there, eat something
:23:28. > :23:34.but enjoy it. Listen to music but listen to it. I hope we eventually
:23:35. > :23:40.go to survival of the wisest rather than survival of the fittest. That's
:23:41. > :23:44.a nice thought to end on. Ruby Wax, thank you very much for being on
:23:45. > :24:10.HARDtalk. Thank you. Thank you very much.
:24:11. > :24:15.As you may well have seen in news headlines, there are a number of
:24:16. > :24:16.severe flood warnings already in