:00:00. > :00:09.More bulletins throughout the night. Now it is time for HARDtalk.
:00:10. > :00:19.Welcome to HARDtalk. Ukraine had an historic opportunity this week to
:00:20. > :00:24.move towards full integration with the European Union. European leaders
:00:25. > :00:28.wanted to steal and Association agreement, which would draw one of
:00:29. > :00:34.your's largest nations firmly into Brussels or a bit. But Ukraine's
:00:35. > :00:38.president walked away from the deal in favour of closure ties with
:00:39. > :00:43.Russia. Why? My guest is Petro Poroshenko, billionaire Ukrainian
:00:44. > :00:48.businessman and former minister. East or west? Where do Ukraine's
:00:49. > :01:21.real interests lie? Petro Poroshenko, welcome to
:01:22. > :01:27.HARDtalk. Thank you. How surprised were you when the President decided
:01:28. > :01:32.to pull the plug on the Association agreement with the European Union.
:01:33. > :01:39.Good afternoon and good evening, I think that this is very important.
:01:40. > :01:44.Until now, we do not have any opinion of the President. That is an
:01:45. > :01:48.interesting fact. It was only the decision of the government. It is
:01:49. > :01:51.quite content for the viewers to understand what is the difference
:01:52. > :01:55.between the Prime Minister and the President. All of the power is
:01:56. > :02:00.focused in the President. So you do not doubt it was the President
:02:01. > :02:07.himself who decided to walk away from the deal? First of all, when it
:02:08. > :02:13.happened, the government decision, it was a big shock to everybody. For
:02:14. > :02:20.the Ukrainian people, for the Ukrainian politicians, for the
:02:21. > :02:25.European leaders. It seems to me that the Russians do not know how to
:02:26. > :02:31.command that. They did not have any way to welcome that. That what do.
:02:32. > :02:37.So you were shocked. But now that you have heard the basic affirmation
:02:38. > :02:41.from the Ukrainian government, who said that they felt it was in
:02:42. > :02:47.Ukraine's national`security interest not to sign this deal and that they
:02:48. > :02:55.would look towards the customs union deal with Russia and the former
:02:56. > :03:01.Soviet states, because they said that would restore lost production,
:03:02. > :03:09.output, trade and relations. Can you understand the decision? No. Neither
:03:10. > :03:15.me nor the Ukrainian politicians or Ukrainian people, nobody can
:03:16. > :03:19.understand that. We do not have any danger if we signed the Association
:03:20. > :03:24.agreement with the European Union. The main motivation for me as the
:03:25. > :03:33.Ukrainian politician as a Ukrainian citizen is stronger voting for the
:03:34. > :03:40.necessity to reform my country. We are simply not competitive. They
:03:41. > :03:47.have big problems from the point of view of democracy, freedom of
:03:48. > :03:53.speech, freedom of press. The valuer talking about is the Russians? Some
:03:54. > :04:01.people inside the Ukrainian government. I am not commenting on
:04:02. > :04:10.any Russian steppes. Russia is acting in their own interests. They
:04:11. > :04:15.have an idea about global Russia. From that point of view, the Russian
:04:16. > :04:22.step is totally logical. But you are one of the Ukraine's biggest
:04:23. > :04:25.businessmen. You know almost better than anybody in your country that
:04:26. > :04:31.you cannot divorce the decision taken by the Ukrainian government
:04:32. > :04:36.from the stands taken inside Russia. Russia is putting enormous pressure
:04:37. > :04:45.on the Ukrainian government not to do this deal with the EU. For sure.
:04:46. > :04:52.I know that. I was the foreign affairs Minister. I was the Minister
:04:53. > :05:00.for the economy. I am one of the biggest Ukrainian symbols. You are
:05:01. > :05:06.known as the King of chocolate. I will spare your blushes. But your
:05:07. > :05:10.confectionery as this is huge. You also own shipyards, automakers, a TV
:05:11. > :05:15.station, you are a billionaire businessman. You know the pressure
:05:16. > :05:20.from the Russians. The Russians declared that your chocolates would
:05:21. > :05:28.have longer safe to eat inside Russia. They banned export from the
:05:29. > :05:33.countries. `` country. You know precisely why the Ukrainians decided
:05:34. > :05:44.that they could not afford to do this. That is true. But when Russia
:05:45. > :05:50.declared the band, the next day we made a top world laboratory for
:05:51. > :05:55.making and international independent assessment. Russia received 40
:05:56. > :05:59.reports from the top laboratories in the world. Not a single country in
:06:00. > :06:05.the world can confirm the Russian decision. I am not suggesting that
:06:06. > :06:09.your chocolate was poisonous. That is not the point I am trying to
:06:10. > :06:15.make. What I am trying to get at is this. You know, because your
:06:16. > :06:18.business suffered real losses, that Russia has enormous power. Russia is
:06:19. > :06:24.the single biggest trading partner of Ukraine. When Russia imposed
:06:25. > :06:31.these restrictions and controls on various Ukrainian exports, trade
:06:32. > :06:37.went down 25%. Your economy is in a total mess, partly because people
:06:38. > :06:43.fear the Russia factor. What choice did the President have? In the end,
:06:44. > :06:48.the Russian economic pressure, intimidation if you want to put it
:06:49. > :06:55.that way, was extreme. Russia wants to use the economic influence on the
:06:56. > :07:01.political decision. If you're talking about 25% of the drop in
:07:02. > :07:10.turnover, they had some positive figures. Russia supplied to the
:07:11. > :07:15.Ukraine 30`40% less the natural gas. Ukraine becomes more energy
:07:16. > :07:23.efficient. But Ukraine still owes a huge amount of money. Mr Putin
:07:24. > :07:28.indicated in direct talks that if Ukraine was to leave Europe behind
:07:29. > :07:35.and look towards the Russian customs union, there would be a reward. They
:07:36. > :07:41.would be a carrot. A lot of the debts would be written off. I would
:07:42. > :07:53.not use reward, but bright. `` bribe. Should we use this price for
:07:54. > :08:01.building up democracy, we should pay this price. Without bringing in new
:08:02. > :08:06.technology, without bringing in the CSS are investment, Ukraine will not
:08:07. > :08:11.be competitive. `` necessary. I am talking about the short`term. We
:08:12. > :08:17.have two choices. The first tourist is signed with the Association
:08:18. > :08:24.agreement. Second step, providing enough money from the IMF will help
:08:25. > :08:30.us for providing reform. It will help the energy economy giving up
:08:31. > :08:37.the advantage. Cooperation with the International monetary fund, the
:08:38. > :08:42.World Bank, the AFC and a lot of institutions. It would bring $1
:08:43. > :08:50.billion. It would help us solve the economy. In the other way, the
:08:51. > :08:58.association with Russia. We have the short`term positive by adoring the
:08:59. > :09:02.gas prices. But it is not. `` nothing. Without reforms, it is just
:09:03. > :09:07.a couple of years of softening the situation. In the middle term
:09:08. > :09:15.strategy, it is more difficult problem. But it is incumbent on you
:09:16. > :09:20.to explain how you would deal with the Russian relationship if the
:09:21. > :09:30.Ukraine had gone ahead with the Association agreement. One man talks
:09:31. > :09:33.about the politics and political pressure, talking about
:09:34. > :09:40.full`scale's stance towards Kiev, how do you overcome the politics?
:09:41. > :09:52.The relationship cannot last forever. We are such a closed
:09:53. > :09:55.country. We have a common history. Russia depends on the Ukrainian
:09:56. > :10:02.market in the same way that Ukraine depends upon Russia. With respect,
:10:03. > :10:05.you are talking the language of give and take and reason. I was at a
:10:06. > :10:15.conference recently that you were at well in Yalta. One of the Kremlin's
:10:16. > :10:20.key advisers look you in the Eye and said, understand this, if you go in
:10:21. > :10:24.the direction of Europe, you will suffer the consequences. He said
:10:25. > :10:31.that in Russia we will see no reason to abide by our long`standing
:10:32. > :10:34.treaties with the Ukraine. In other words, he was threatening that there
:10:35. > :10:40.could be deep instability, maybe even some of the ethnic Russian
:10:41. > :10:45.parts of your country might receive some support and assistance from
:10:46. > :10:49.Moscow. He suggested that if you did not do what Moscow wanted, there
:10:50. > :10:57.would essentially create conflict between Moscow and Kiev. Thank you
:10:58. > :11:02.for reminding me of this. It was an interesting dialogue. It was not
:11:03. > :11:09.really dialogue. It was a clear message from Russia that Ukraine
:11:10. > :11:14.should know its place. First of all, I am a citizen of the Ukraine.
:11:15. > :11:19.Ukraine is a sovereign and independent state. I am fighting for
:11:20. > :11:23.the right of the Ukraine, the government, the presidency, the
:11:24. > :11:29.people, the Parliament, to make a decision by themselves. We cannot
:11:30. > :11:34.make any decision from Moscow or Brussels. We will listen to advice.
:11:35. > :11:38.But we are fighting for our rights and make a decision for ourselves.
:11:39. > :11:49.If anyone wanted to make the pressure on Ukraine, that is what
:11:50. > :11:54.results. Would you accept some responsibility for the fact that the
:11:55. > :11:58.Ukraine looks like the pretty dysfunctional country today with
:11:59. > :12:04.deep levels of corruption, with a real split between East and West,
:12:05. > :12:12.North and South, with the Russian speaking parts of the Ukraine in a
:12:13. > :12:18.difficult place. Would you, as one of the oligarchs of the country,
:12:19. > :12:22.would you accept some responsibility that for the last decade, the
:12:23. > :12:30.Ukraine has not been serious about reform? Let us divide the question.
:12:31. > :12:36.If you are talking about corruption and the awful situation in the
:12:37. > :12:45.Ukrainian court system and the absolutely wild bureaucracy. That is
:12:46. > :12:49.exactly the biggest problem. You are part of a status quo that are set to
:12:50. > :12:54.itself, as long as we can make money and profit, we will live with
:12:55. > :12:58.Ukraine we have got. If you know a little bit to about my history, I
:12:59. > :13:03.was fighting against corruption most of the time I was in the opposition.
:13:04. > :13:11.The only reason for me to be in politics was to help my country. I
:13:12. > :13:18.tried to do my best. I had some results. Including the Association
:13:19. > :13:24.agreement. The free trade agreement with the European Union. I am sure
:13:25. > :13:31.that to solve the problem of corruption, to build up the
:13:32. > :13:36.democratic society, we should just modernise the country under the
:13:37. > :13:41.rules of European Union. It can be simple to do the reforms. But if
:13:42. > :13:48.you're talking about the country divided by language between East and
:13:49. > :13:54.West and the sympathy to the West and Russia. I am happy to inform you
:13:55. > :14:02.that this is not true any more for the past five months. Why? Because
:14:03. > :14:08.of Russia. If you remember, I said that the united the country. Is that
:14:09. > :14:14.true? We see hundreds of people who wants to form a new protest camp.
:14:15. > :14:19.Ask yourself, how many Ukrainians are really prepared to go back onto
:14:20. > :14:28.the streets to fight for a European future? First of all, they do not go
:14:29. > :14:36.to fight. I merely political sense. I do not mean that they will take up
:14:37. > :14:42.arms. Is there a possibility that we could see scenes in Kiev reminiscent
:14:43. > :14:50.of that orange revolution? Coming back from the previous topic, first
:14:51. > :15:00.of all, for this for months, the nation is united. Four months ago,
:15:01. > :15:07.only 40% of people supported European integration. Now, the
:15:08. > :15:13.figure is completely different. We have 68% from the last poll. 68% of
:15:14. > :15:18.Ukrainian people supporting the European integration. This is a
:15:19. > :15:23.national idea to unite the country. I am happy about that. And to my
:15:24. > :15:28.question. If two thirds of the people support the European
:15:29. > :15:34.solution, what will they do about the fact that the government has
:15:35. > :15:39.gone the other direction? Will they now be some sort of mass public
:15:40. > :15:44.protest movement? This is exactly what we had a possibility to see
:15:45. > :15:49.yesterday. I was an organiser of this meeting. I was addressing
:15:50. > :15:59.200,000 people in the square. That was demonstrating that Ukrainian
:16:00. > :16:03.people are not... They hate the 80 that somebody would steal their
:16:04. > :16:15.dreams, European dreams. Steel that hopes. It was bad weather, but they
:16:16. > :16:22.understand it now. If you see the pictures, it is self explaining.
:16:23. > :16:28.When the police start to remove the people, people standstill, because
:16:29. > :16:34.it is impossible to stop the people when the right to have a thousand
:16:35. > :16:47.people protesting. `` when there are 200,000 people protesting. They sent
:16:48. > :16:51.a direct message to the President. They said, the door of the European
:16:52. > :16:57.Union is still open, they can still sign the agreement. It will not be
:16:58. > :17:06.the responsible to the foreign affairs Minister. He should follow
:17:07. > :17:11.the 68% of his people. You say the Doris still open, you obviously want
:17:12. > :17:17.this whole question to be revisited over whether the Ukraine can find a
:17:18. > :17:21.way into the European cloud. The recently as we have not talked
:17:22. > :17:29.about, that is the situation surrounding the former president.
:17:30. > :17:35.Some Europeans said it would not be a deal until you've yet to machine
:17:36. > :17:39.to us released. Do you think the Europeans got that wrong? They
:17:40. > :17:46.should not have made her such an issue for European citizenship?
:17:47. > :17:50.Attractive explain the situation. The EU has tracked to put in place a
:17:51. > :17:56.system. They have not said if it was guilty of not guilty. They have said
:17:57. > :18:00.that during the court process, there was no right to defend themselves.
:18:01. > :18:07.It is unacceptable for the European rules of law and European
:18:08. > :18:16.politicians. Among the 11 criteria which were established in the
:18:17. > :18:21.December summit, the Ukrainian position was number one. We
:18:22. > :18:30.demonstrated a strong focus on other questions. She is still in jail. We
:18:31. > :18:38.should find a way to compromise. The fate of the nation, the biggest
:18:39. > :18:46.nation in Europe by Territorians cannot depend on the fate of one
:18:47. > :18:59.person. You are suggesting that they can be away for Ukraine to do this
:19:00. > :19:07.deal with Yulia Tymoshenko still in jail. We have a direct letter to the
:19:08. > :19:12.President saying, please make a public declaration that you will
:19:13. > :19:25.sign, on the 20th of November, the agreement. If you publicly declare
:19:26. > :19:29.your intent. She did say that, and she wanted the agreement even if she
:19:30. > :19:34.were still in prison. Almost certainly now they will not be in
:19:35. > :19:40.agreement. It seemed extra narrowly unlikely that the President will
:19:41. > :19:46.change his mind. Can there be a bit more romantic and think that 200,000
:19:47. > :19:54.people, millions of Ukrainians, will try to use this last week until the
:19:55. > :19:59.summit to arrange the conditional, should the President signed the
:20:00. > :20:03.agreement? You think it is possible? I think it is. Otherwise I could not
:20:04. > :20:13.go to 100,000 people and ask for their support. We will do our best
:20:14. > :20:22.to sign it. Let us suppose it is not happen. Will you leave? You are one
:20:23. > :20:31.of the richest and best known men in the Ukraine. Will you leave the
:20:32. > :20:34.opposition movement, and would you put yourself behind Yulia
:20:35. > :20:40.Tymoshenko, even though she is in prison, as the leader of an
:20:41. > :20:46.opposition movement? You asking me the political question. I am trying
:20:47. > :20:50.to deliver you the information that we European integration is not only
:20:51. > :20:58.a political question. People are not supporting any political leader, it
:20:59. > :21:04.does not matter, they came there without political slogans, just to
:21:05. > :21:08.demonstrate that the main purpose for them was to unite the country
:21:09. > :21:15.the association agreement without any preference to a politician. This
:21:16. > :21:22.is not the last day. I would hate the idea to postpone it. They can
:21:23. > :21:30.try to release you some further information. At the end of February,
:21:31. > :21:35.most probably will take place, the next summit between the EU and the
:21:36. > :21:42.UK. If we have no possibility to sign this agreement, that was the
:21:43. > :21:50.last date when we had the European Parliament still in force. They will
:21:51. > :21:53.lodge their election campaign. The old Commissioner from the European
:21:54. > :22:02.Commissioner, and all the European politicians who demonstrate the
:22:03. > :22:09.decision to save can happen at the end of February. We will work hard.
:22:10. > :22:14.It is impossible but only the opposition or President could be
:22:15. > :22:17.signing the agreement. We need unification, unification for the
:22:18. > :22:23.countries and for the political agreement. I salute your optimism.
:22:24. > :22:30.You are forgetting one thing, the power of Russia. Vladimir Putin in
:22:31. > :22:35.particular. Here are some words from the open Europe foundation. The
:22:36. > :22:39.lesson of all of this is that the EU's soft power diplomacy has its
:22:40. > :22:42.limits. Playing carrot and stick does not work when you come up
:22:43. > :22:48.against the real hard power of Russia. This is a highly significant
:22:49. > :22:58.moment. That is the truth, is it not? Iama had a percent supportive
:22:59. > :23:04.of this idea. The Ukraine could not stay like it is today. He cannot
:23:05. > :23:09.change is geography. It will always be next door to Russia.
:23:10. > :23:15.Unfortunately, I present you with a negative proposal. If the Ukraine to
:23:16. > :23:18.sign in the near future, the association agreement with the
:23:19. > :23:25.European Union, because of the difficult financial system and the
:23:26. > :23:28.economic situation, because next year it is the preparatory year for
:23:29. > :23:35.the election, because of a list of factors, the Ukraine will remain in
:23:36. > :23:41.the orbit of Russia. That is not good for the Ukraine. That will be
:23:42. > :23:47.the Ukraine's destiny. I have nothing against Russia. Russia do
:23:48. > :23:53.what they understand of Russian interests. But this is not Ukrainian
:23:54. > :23:58.interests. We go not from Russia, but from the Soviet Union. Russia
:23:59. > :24:04.needs reform, just like the Ukraine. Thank you for being on harmful.
:24:05. > :24:31.HARDtalk. Very little change with the weather
:24:32. > :24:35.this week, it is all because we are still keeping hold of this area of
:24:36. > :24:41.high pressure. It will keep things mainly dry across the UK. Wormholes
:24:42. > :24:46.appear overnight in the cloud will see some patchy frost and fog. It
:24:47. > :24:49.will turn coldly and by the end of the week. The central slice of the
:24:50. > :24:54.UK will see most of the clear spells. A cold start here this
:24:55. > :24:57.morning. On either side, a bit more cloud, not quite as cold. Towns and
:24:58. > :24:59.cities around