:00:00. > :00:15.month. Now it is time for HARDtalk.
:00:16. > :00:21.Welcome to HARDtalk. Is the stability and unity of the European
:00:22. > :00:25.Union threatened by internal migration? Over the past decade,
:00:26. > :00:28.millions of people from the countries of Eastern Europe has
:00:29. > :00:33.taken advantage of the EU's integrated economic space to live
:00:34. > :00:38.and work in the union's richer countries. But now there are signs
:00:39. > :00:42.of a political backlash, not least in Britain, my guest is the EU
:00:43. > :00:46.commissioner for employment and social affairs, Laszlo Andor. Has
:00:47. > :01:19.your's freedom of movement gone too far? `` has Europe's.
:01:20. > :01:24.Commissioner Laszlo Andor, welcome to HARDtalk. Would you accept the
:01:25. > :01:28.proposition that as Europe has grappled with economic crises, the
:01:29. > :01:33.basic principle of freedom of movement, established for many years
:01:34. > :01:39.inside the European Union, has caused real tension, social and
:01:40. > :01:45.economic tension? I believe it is the crisis itself that is causing
:01:46. > :01:49.the tension. The possibility to develop a genuine European Labour
:01:50. > :01:54.market is an opportunity which we should use. It is potentially a
:01:55. > :02:00.win`win game for individuals, companies, sending countries,
:02:01. > :02:03.receiving countries, and we should anticipate more migration in the
:02:04. > :02:09.European Union, more workers looking for a job in another country, and
:02:10. > :02:15.this is indeed an opportunity rather than a threat. Why do think that
:02:16. > :02:19.David Cameron, in the Financial Times, said quite plainly, that
:02:20. > :02:25.things have gone wrong inside the single market, and in particular he
:02:26. > :02:31.on what has gone wrong with this freedom of movement, freedom of work
:02:32. > :02:36.principle. Some countries, including the UK, experienced something which
:02:37. > :02:40.was not expected, but it is very important to be measured and draw
:02:41. > :02:49.conclusions in a proportionate way. What was expected is a certain
:02:50. > :02:54.number of Polish and other workers would come after the accession of
:02:55. > :02:59.these countries in 2004, and it is true that much larger numbers came
:03:00. > :03:02.then originally expected. People talk about tens of thousands, it
:03:03. > :03:08.turned out to be hundreds of thousands. More than a million in
:03:09. > :03:12.the UK. This is the difference. It is important to see what the result
:03:13. > :03:15.is. The result of this large migration is that the British GDP
:03:16. > :03:22.increased more than was expect dead, the migrant workers contributed to
:03:23. > :03:29.economic growth, and they even became net contributors to the
:03:30. > :03:33.public budget. You may look at it as an economist, many people look at it
:03:34. > :03:39.in terms of real life, they see the pressures on health, on schools, and
:03:40. > :03:43.other social services. They see that some of these migrants are living on
:03:44. > :03:47.benefits and they wonder why they should pay taxes for people outside
:03:48. > :03:51.the UK to live on benefits. That is why I come to this point about
:03:52. > :03:55.social, economic, political tensions. Not just in the UK. One
:03:56. > :04:03.can look at Austria, the Netherlands, runs, Germany. That is
:04:04. > :04:07.why I am saying we have to be proportionate. We have to say there
:04:08. > :04:12.are red number of cities, regions, districts, where they may be local
:04:13. > :04:18.tensions. It is not might be. There are. I want to be clear, you do
:04:19. > :04:24.accent that in certain countries, there are real problems. There is
:04:25. > :04:30.tension, indeed. Not only in this country. We know, we speak with the
:04:31. > :04:36.mayors, because they are users of the European funds. The structure of
:04:37. > :04:40.funds, the social fund and the regional fund, are allocated to
:04:41. > :04:51.these regions, in order to address tensions if they may arise. This is
:04:52. > :04:53.not a kind of problem. There is not a magnitude of the problem that
:04:54. > :05:00.cannot be handled by the available instruments. But they are not being
:05:01. > :05:03.handled. Why should I believe that these can be handled, where in
:05:04. > :05:08.recent years, they have not been handled, and that is why when you
:05:09. > :05:11.look at opinion polls, the level of disaffection with the migration
:05:12. > :05:18.issue is rising. If we get to specifics, the fact that in the case
:05:19. > :05:21.of Romania and Bulgaria, that all restrictions will be removed from
:05:22. > :05:26.their ability to travel and work across the European Union at the end
:05:27. > :05:33.of this year, 82% of British people in the latest polls say no. The
:05:34. > :05:38.restrictions should remain. I think people should not see individual
:05:39. > :05:40.cases, anecdotal evidence, or individual experience, which they
:05:41. > :05:47.see in their own neighbourhood, but the big picture. The big picture is
:05:48. > :05:52.number one, there are many important benefits, economic benefits,
:05:53. > :05:55.financial benefits on the side of the receiving country, including on
:05:56. > :06:01.the side of people who sometimes complain. If it is about healthcare,
:06:02. > :06:03.it is important to see that this migrant population uses the
:06:04. > :06:08.healthcare of the receiving countries is much less scale than
:06:09. > :06:12.the local population. Even if it is the case, some of the cost can be
:06:13. > :06:17.recovered from the sending country, because this is provided by the EU
:06:18. > :06:20.laws, and the healthcare system can only function because there are many
:06:21. > :06:27.foreign debt and nurses helping it to function. You are not an elected
:06:28. > :06:32.politician, are you? It may be easier for you to talk about the big
:06:33. > :06:36.picture, and individuals, how they may feel disaffected in their own
:06:37. > :06:42.lives, it is easy to say if you are not standing for an election. The
:06:43. > :06:46.commission is elected by the European Parliament and approved by
:06:47. > :06:52.the government. But you do not have to go to the people. The politicians
:06:53. > :06:55.have to go to the people and explain to the people why so many hundreds
:06:56. > :07:00.of thousands of immigrants from across the European Union have come
:07:01. > :07:03.into this country and wire, a significant number of them, are
:07:04. > :07:08.living on benefits, which are provided by the taxpayers of the UK.
:07:09. > :07:13.If you are a politician, that is a difficult thing to defend. These
:07:14. > :07:17.politicians should be responsible and explain to the electorate, those
:07:18. > :07:22.people who arrived from the new member states of the EU, use the
:07:23. > :07:27.benefits to a much lesser extent than their local population, and
:07:28. > :07:31.they contribute a lot more. If you are so confident when it comes to
:07:32. > :07:36.healthcare... Bearer many independent studies that prove this.
:07:37. > :07:39.If you are so confident that these incoming people from other parts,
:07:40. > :07:43.the poorer parts of the European Union are not really a burden, then
:07:44. > :07:48.what is your problem with Prime Minister Cameron's long list of
:07:49. > :07:53.modifications that he wants to make to the way the system works. Just to
:07:54. > :07:56.go through a couple. He wants a bar of migrants claiming out of work
:07:57. > :08:00.benefits for the first three months after they arrive, he wants welfare
:08:01. > :08:03.payments stopped after six months unless the claimant is deemed to
:08:04. > :08:08.have a genuine chance of getting a job. In essence, he is trying to be
:08:09. > :08:15.much tougher and send a signal that if you come to the UK, you will not,
:08:16. > :08:21.absolutely not, be able to make a life for yourself on welfare and
:08:22. > :08:24.benefits. What is wrong with that? What is wrong at this stage is to
:08:25. > :08:31.issue that the migrant workers from new member states are free riders.
:08:32. > :08:37.There is this phrase, benefit tourism. Their research a phrase,
:08:38. > :08:41.but there is no evidence. We have been asking the British Government
:08:42. > :08:47.for years to provide figures at our so`called benefit tourism. It is an
:08:48. > :08:52.expression that is quite insulting for people on the continent. You
:08:53. > :08:56.keep telling me that these measures are not necessary or relevant
:08:57. > :09:01.because the problem does not exist. If the problem does not exist, and
:09:02. > :09:04.what issue or problem with David Cameron ensuring that benefit
:09:05. > :09:11.tourism, or whatever else you want to call it, does not happen by
:09:12. > :09:16.coming out with these very reasonable measures? It is the EU
:09:17. > :09:22.law itself that provides a lot of safeguards against abuses. You are
:09:23. > :09:27.saying that his new list of half a dozen proposals breaks EU law? I am
:09:28. > :09:32.not saying that. What are you saying? I am saying the EU law
:09:33. > :09:39.allows for greater measures against abuses, and has to be implemented
:09:40. > :09:44.without any kind of discrimination and it is not necessary to link this
:09:45. > :09:49.problem with the enlargement of the European Union, where currently, for
:09:50. > :09:52.example, the majority of the migrant workers do not come from Romania
:09:53. > :09:57.Bulgaria to this country, but from other countries. I think David
:09:58. > :10:02.Cameron is making these proposed changes apply to all EU migrant
:10:03. > :10:07.workers that come to the UK. As Nick Clegg has said, the Government's
:10:08. > :10:10.duty is to ensure that the right to work is not automatically mean the
:10:11. > :10:17.right to claim benefits. Do you accept that or not? That is provided
:10:18. > :10:25.by EU law. What we speak about, it most cases, is to have more action,
:10:26. > :10:30.hopefully in conformity with EU law, that we can only judge this if we
:10:31. > :10:35.see all paper, not on a newspaper, what the complete measures are. So
:10:36. > :10:39.you are not saying that you judge these to be illegal or contrary to
:10:40. > :10:43.EU law and regulation, you are waiting to see. But it is funny you
:10:44. > :10:50.say that when you have gone on record as saying as what Cameron's
:10:51. > :10:54.proposed reflects overreaction and hysteria and runs the risk of the UK
:10:55. > :10:59.being seen as a nasty country in Europe. So it seems like you have
:11:00. > :11:04.decided. We have not decided on the concrete items. But hysterical and
:11:05. > :11:10.an overreaction, and if it reflects on the UK as a nasty country, you
:11:11. > :11:19.have formed a judgement. The story has been on for some time. Political
:11:20. > :11:22.forces like UKIP, they have been using language which was quite
:11:23. > :11:28.detached from the reality, detached from any kind of factual analysis,
:11:29. > :11:32.and if the main parties echo the voices and the rhetoric of these
:11:33. > :11:37.parties, it becomes a problem that is difficult for Britain to find
:11:38. > :11:39.allies on the continent for resolving problems which may exist
:11:40. > :11:45.in this country or in other countries. Is that what you think
:11:46. > :11:48.David Cameron is doing with his list of new proposals? Do you think that
:11:49. > :11:58.he is reflecting the boys of xenophobia? Some of the language
:11:59. > :12:04.from government politicians, echoes the language of xenophobic
:12:05. > :12:11.politicians. And political forces. This should be avoided. Why do you
:12:12. > :12:18.pick on the UK, talking about the nasty and is, talking about echoes
:12:19. > :12:21.of xenophobia, when we know that the Netherlands poses specific
:12:22. > :12:25.requirements, three months of residency before you can access
:12:26. > :12:27.benefits, the Germans in the last day have announced that they are
:12:28. > :12:33.very worried about poverty migration, we will tackle
:12:34. > :12:36.unjustified benefit claims, says the German government, the French
:12:37. > :12:41.government as well has complained about social dumping of people from
:12:42. > :12:46.poor East European countries. Are all of these key EU member states
:12:47. > :12:52.nasty as well? Are they all xenophobic? These are apples and
:12:53. > :12:56.pears. We are comparing situations where they may be similarities, but
:12:57. > :13:02.they may be quite different. The French discussion is about the
:13:03. > :13:08.so`called... Not those who migrate, but those who are sent by their own
:13:09. > :13:14.companies to work on a temporary basis, and on this discussion,
:13:15. > :13:22.France and the UK are polar opposite in their views, because France is
:13:23. > :13:27.fighting social dumping and wants to joint `` established joint
:13:28. > :13:31.liability. To be clear about it, you are saying there is some
:13:32. > :13:38.indifferent, your phrase, nasty about the British approach. The
:13:39. > :13:42.British RNA joint letter and that you and other commissioners back in
:13:43. > :13:46.this band, Austria, Germany and the Netherlands, all saying there needs
:13:47. > :13:50.to be a new commission approach to combat fraud and abuse of the
:13:51. > :13:53.welfare systems. Return does not seem to be alone. But you are
:13:54. > :13:59.suggesting that Britain is somehow different. I was speaking about the
:14:00. > :14:04.risk of a bad image. I do not qualified these proposals. I was
:14:05. > :14:09.talking about the risk of a bad image. But you make it sound
:14:10. > :14:12.dispassionate, as if the bad image may develop. You are critiquing it
:14:13. > :14:19.by using words such as his direct and nasty. I do not invent the
:14:20. > :14:23.phrase benefit tourism and the other possible insults that are used by
:14:24. > :14:31.British edition is about Romanians and Bulgarians and others. If you
:14:32. > :14:35.compare the British rhetoric, also generated by the tabloid press, if
:14:36. > :14:38.you compare this with the Dutch and the German, they never draw
:14:39. > :14:43.conclusions about free movement, they do not say it should be
:14:44. > :14:47.restrict did, the Dutch politicians, the Dutch government, the
:14:48. > :14:50.responsible minister calls for closer cooperation on inspection
:14:51. > :14:52.against undeclared work, and this is absolutely legitimate, we are
:14:53. > :15:04.proposing this for the commission. Do you not fear that you are falling
:15:05. > :15:07.directly into the hands of those who are most sceptical about the
:15:08. > :15:15.European Union in the UK, in the sense you are doing their work for
:15:16. > :15:22.them with the steps you have taken? I think it is important to confront
:15:23. > :15:28.xenophobia, confront demagogues who don't speak about reality but go to
:15:29. > :15:32.their gut feelings instead of facts. Are you talking about the British
:15:33. > :15:39.government itself? You'll A not necessarily.
:15:40. > :15:43.What do you mean? In your view, demagoguery and xenophobia resides
:15:44. > :15:52.in the British government? I spoke about some reddish
:15:53. > :16:02.politicians. In the EU parliament we hear from night of the Raj. `` Nigel
:16:03. > :16:07.Farage. Here is one MP from the Conservative party in the United
:16:08. > :16:15.Kingdom, the biggest partner in the government. To say that you should
:16:16. > :16:19.withdraw, it shows how out of touch UI with reality, the reality of
:16:20. > :16:25.British people. That is the point I am, I did not say that Britain would
:16:26. > :16:32.be nasty, I was saying there was the risk of such an image and the
:16:33. > :16:38.rhetoric is not more measured and the policy formation is not done on
:16:39. > :16:41.the basis of the analysis which could be shared also with other
:16:42. > :16:47.countries and the European institutions. If you want to calm
:16:48. > :16:55.the debate down, make it more rational, make is it wise to Wheeler
:16:56. > :17:03.phrases like xenophobia and British politicians? We have two name,
:17:04. > :17:13.rightly, the existing phenomenal. That is why it is time to stop
:17:14. > :17:18.certain approaches which caused a lot of concern, which also risk
:17:19. > :17:22.shifting the debate about the UK's position in the European Union to
:17:23. > :17:27.the wrong direction. We started by talking about the freedom of
:17:28. > :17:30.movement and labour, the respected economist Paul Collier says the
:17:31. > :17:35.fundamental reason why it is not working is that it was designed on
:17:36. > :17:39.the basis of reciprocity. The assumption was that there would be a
:17:40. > :17:44.largely converged European Union economic space and just as British
:17:45. > :17:50.workers may go to your country, Hungary, Hungary and workers might
:17:51. > :17:56.come to my country, Britain. There would be a reciprocity between the
:17:57. > :18:02.two. There is not a convergence in the European Union, since the
:18:03. > :18:07.crisis, the disparity in the European Union have got much worse.
:18:08. > :18:13.Would you accept that? Not exactly. There has been a lot of convergence.
:18:14. > :18:22.Poland has been growing faster than the UK. Do expect to leave their
:18:23. > :18:26.convergence has gotten better in the European Union during the financial
:18:27. > :18:30.crisis when you have seen southern Europe almost on its knees as a
:18:31. > :18:36.result of sovereign debt. The East European economy is far behind the
:18:37. > :18:41.western economies in terms of per capita GDP. Where is the
:18:42. > :18:46.convergence? We should not be so categorical. There are significant
:18:47. > :18:51.examples of convergence. Poland has been growing much faster than the
:18:52. > :18:58.United kingdom economy. That means that some polish people will return
:18:59. > :19:02.to Poland. When we talk about reciprocity we should not just talk
:19:03. > :19:11.about the labour market. We're talking about people today you
:19:12. > :19:15.cannot separate the. This is the structure of the single market.
:19:16. > :19:22.David Cameron says you can separate. He says that he will push hard for
:19:23. > :19:27.modifications to the fundamental principle of the free movement of
:19:28. > :19:32.peoples. He says it needs to be tied to the GDP per capita of the country
:19:33. > :19:37.only of a certain threshold. When a country has reached a certain
:19:38. > :19:40.threshold of GDP should it be able to enjoy the fruits of free
:19:41. > :19:46.movement. He has other big picture thoughts, two about how they have to
:19:47. > :19:51.be limits on the lids of movement. Do you think there is any of this ``
:19:52. > :20:00.possibility to win that argument? It will be an only goal to reduce the
:20:01. > :20:09.number of migrants. `` owner goal. Secondly, there are significant
:20:10. > :20:23.benefits. There are transitional periods. A seven`year transitional
:20:24. > :20:26.period before transition kicks in. I'm asking you again, straight, do
:20:27. > :20:31.you think David Cameron has any chance of modifying as he wants to
:20:32. > :20:37.and limiting the fundamental principle of freedom of movement. I
:20:38. > :20:43.think it is possible to try, every enlargement is different. The fact
:20:44. > :20:47.that the 2004, 2007 and the current Croatian enlargement had the same
:20:48. > :20:52.rules regarding the free movement of workers is not set in stone. In
:20:53. > :20:54.principle it is possible to make proposals but it has to be
:20:55. > :21:00.corroborated by a sound argument why exactly this is necessary. Do you
:21:01. > :21:04.accept that there is no real possibility given the political heat
:21:05. > :21:08.in this debate about freedom of movement and what it has meant for
:21:09. > :21:13.big European economies, there is no possibility of Turkey or any other
:21:14. > :21:21.significant new countries exceeding to the European Union because people
:21:22. > :21:24.it seems have decided that what happens when poor countries exceed
:21:25. > :21:35.and the migration flows develop is not acceptable. I know that the UK
:21:36. > :21:39.has been a friend and promoter of enlargement, this does not mean that
:21:40. > :21:44.it would be a fast process because the countries that applied, they
:21:45. > :21:53.have to satisfy a very tough criteria. There have to be many
:21:54. > :21:58.reforms. You have been a hugely strong advocate of more Europe. You
:21:59. > :22:02.say, that convergence, what we have talked about, underpinning the
:22:03. > :22:05.conversation, and only happen not just with a new bottle of ambitious
:22:06. > :22:09.monetary union but also social union, it has to be collective
:22:10. > :22:15.action to ensure that unemployment especially a lung `` among the young
:22:16. > :22:19.do not spiral out of control. You're suggesting that it will take massive
:22:20. > :22:25.collective European Union action to ensure that. We are going to that
:22:26. > :22:28.direction, there has been a recognition that there is a
:22:29. > :22:33.systematic problem with monetary union. A domestic model of the euro
:22:34. > :22:37.is probably not sustainable. There have to be reforms. There has to be
:22:38. > :22:41.a reinforcement of the monetary union. That is not where the
:22:42. > :22:46.politics of Europe lies. You go beyond that, you talk about massive
:22:47. > :22:48.redistribution between rich and poor economies between the European
:22:49. > :22:54.Union. The belief that should happen through much more injury ``
:22:55. > :22:58.integration, centralisation driven from Brussels. I wonder what planet
:22:59. > :23:02.you are living on. We have seen the dispute and argument within Europe
:23:03. > :23:06.about even rescuing Greece and others from their sovereign debt
:23:07. > :23:11.crisis. You should not close what is happening in Brussels. The economic
:23:12. > :23:18.governance has been reinforced in recent years. The budget has been
:23:19. > :23:25.centralised. There is movement towards a banking union. That was
:23:26. > :23:29.designed and now step`by`step being implemented not very dynamically but
:23:30. > :23:35.I think there is a transition towards a banking union. There is
:23:36. > :23:39.more and more discussion about other elements, like fiscal union. ) you
:23:40. > :23:46.think you can keep Britain in the Europe that you are imagining today?
:23:47. > :23:53.I think if there is a fair discussion about the cost benefits
:23:54. > :23:59.of EU membership, people will see the benefits for Britain. Nobody
:24:00. > :24:04.forces the United Kingdom to join the eurozone or to introduce the
:24:05. > :24:08.euro. But the single market and other common policies, I believe
:24:09. > :24:11.benefit the United Kingdom greatly. We have to end there. Thank you very
:24:12. > :24:40.much. The set of whether we have had for
:24:41. > :24:44.quite some time now is going to come to an end tomorrow, particularly in
:24:45. > :24:50.the north of the country, it is going to be a very different day,
:24:51. > :24:54.some very strong winds. This cloud here, there is an error of low
:24:55. > :25:01.pressure, a lot of isobars are springing around. For Friday, that
:25:02. > :25:05.means that there is going to be a fair bit of wind around the UK. Also
:25:06. > :25:10.some sunny spells, actually, for most of us on Friday, the weather is
:25:11. > :25:14.not going to be too bad. Here are the details, through the course of
:25:15. > :25:15.the night, a weather front with a short, sharp burst of