:00:00. > 3:59:59two of his aides were reported for corruption. The report is to be
:00:00. > :00:16.verified. Welcome to HARDtalk from Brussels.
:00:17. > :00:21.In recent years, the European Union has been under enormous strain, amid
:00:22. > :00:25.austerity, the bail out and raising unemployment, many Europeans have
:00:26. > :00:31.concluded that the European Union is part of the problem, not the
:00:32. > :00:34.solution. My guests today is the socialist President of the European
:00:35. > :00:41.Parliament, Martin Schiltz, one of the highest profile advocates of
:00:42. > :00:43.European integration. He may just be the next president of the European
:00:44. > :01:00.Commission. Is the art of June with your's mood. -- Izzy out of tune.
:01:01. > :01:10.Martin Schiltz, welcome to HARDtalk. I want to begin by quoting some of
:01:11. > :01:14.your own words when you took over as President of the European
:01:15. > :01:18.Parliament. You pledged to win back public trust and restore public
:01:19. > :01:28.enthusiasm for Europe. What went wrong?
:01:29. > :01:35.People who lost trust in the last years because Europe was a promise
:01:36. > :01:42.for not only piece but also for more social coherence, stability, jobs
:01:43. > :01:45.and growth, decent salaries. Part of these promises are not kept neither
:01:46. > :01:54.by the European Union nor the member states. You underestimated the task,
:01:55. > :02:01.winning enthusiasm, restoring trust the EU institutions. You thought you
:02:02. > :02:06.could do it, you can't. I can't convince people to be enthusiasts
:02:07. > :02:12.and about the institution. The idea that country are nations cooperate
:02:13. > :02:17.because they know that together they are strengthening each other and
:02:18. > :02:23.they can better manage the challengers. This is the idea of
:02:24. > :02:28.Europe. Over the Europe you can see that people are enthusiastic but
:02:29. > :02:31.they don't identify that with Europe. That is what you do not see.
:02:32. > :02:36.Looking at the latest Gallup polls, they readily poll the biggest
:02:37. > :02:42.nations in Europe and the latest figures show that the number that
:02:43. > :02:46.think the European Union is going in the wrong direction, 62% in France,
:02:47. > :02:53.17% think it's going right. Generally, traditionally very pro-
:02:54. > :02:56.European, 45% think it is going in the wrong direction. 33% think it is
:02:57. > :03:05.going in the right direction. Perhaps I have failed to express
:03:06. > :03:13.what I mean. I share your view. The EU was going in the wrong direction.
:03:14. > :03:16.The ideal of transnational cooperation is uncontested. The
:03:17. > :03:22.problem is that more and more people don't identify the European Union
:03:23. > :03:26.with the idea. My question is reform the idea or reform the EU. I am in
:03:27. > :03:32.favour of reforming the EU. You use the form the notion of a closer
:03:33. > :03:38.integration leading to a federal concept. Do you renounce that? Know
:03:39. > :03:43.I do not. You used the term that I M a European federalist. I have never
:03:44. > :03:48.said that. When I was a young boy with 18 years, I thought the United
:03:49. > :03:52.Nations of Europe for the United States of Europe, was like the
:03:53. > :03:58.United States of America on European territory. As immature men, I know
:03:59. > :04:04.that you can't do that. I'm very realistic. If we don't speak about
:04:05. > :04:11.competence, let's speak about responsibilities. National and local
:04:12. > :04:15.responsibilities will remain to be very important and some things are
:04:16. > :04:19.better on a regional or national level. The free trade agreement
:04:20. > :04:22.between the European Union and United States of America must be
:04:23. > :04:27.dealt between Europe and the United States. It seems to many Europeans,
:04:28. > :04:35.particularly those living in the economic challenge nations, some on
:04:36. > :04:41.the periphery of Europe. They seem to be back of legitimacy that have
:04:42. > :04:44.done so much to govern their lives, the European Commission, the
:04:45. > :04:50.European Central bank, working in conjunction with the IMF. In
:04:51. > :04:53.countries like Greece, or Ireland, Portugal and others, it feels too
:04:54. > :04:58.many people as though their lives have been fundamentally changed. Not
:04:59. > :05:05.necessarily in a good way, by undemocratic institutions. Do you
:05:06. > :05:13.think that the way in which the Troika have handled the sovereign
:05:14. > :05:16.debt crisis and the economic crisis in the European Union has done great
:05:17. > :05:24.damage to the idea of Europe. The Troika have never acted
:05:25. > :05:31.independently. They execute the will of the European Council. You are a
:05:32. > :05:37.German MEP. Adopted unanimously in the European Council. You may
:05:38. > :05:41.reflect on the fact that Germany is the real economic power that has
:05:42. > :05:48.dictated events in Europe for the last four years. I argue with that.
:05:49. > :05:52.I see the impact of Germany and the enormous power of Angela Merkel as a
:05:53. > :06:04.Chancellor. Around the table, let's be honest, at 28, 27 during the
:06:05. > :06:07.crisis. 27 heads of state. After a meeting when a unanimous vote is
:06:08. > :06:14.needed, everybody said it was Angela Merkel. This is not honest. The
:06:15. > :06:19.heads of state... It could be honest all the reflection of reality that
:06:20. > :06:26.Germany has driven the response. You have been involved in recent weeks
:06:27. > :06:32.in long negotiations to create a new German government. It seems that
:06:33. > :06:35.Angela Merkel will work in a grand coalition alongside your party, the
:06:36. > :06:38.Social Democrats, you have been talking about a new policy for
:06:39. > :06:44.Europe, the I would put it to you that you will have achieved nothing
:06:45. > :06:48.in terms of changing Alan General Michael's policy toward Europe, she
:06:49. > :06:58.says there is no change. I will add to that later. I want to conclude
:06:59. > :07:01.our first chapter, the Troika. The Troika executed the will of the
:07:02. > :07:05.heads of state of government, the prime Minister of England, the
:07:06. > :07:14.president of France and Angela Merkel. The mistrust of the Troika,
:07:15. > :07:21.unilateral philosophy of unilateral cuts in growth. What we achieved in
:07:22. > :07:27.the negotiation was to combine the budgetary discipline with strategic
:07:28. > :07:30.investments and fight against unemployment of young people. This
:07:31. > :07:34.is a major change in policy in Germany and Europe. What other
:07:35. > :07:42.Europeans want to see is that Germany is going to move away from
:07:43. > :07:46.an austerity driven strategy. The reality is we have a minimum wage
:07:47. > :07:50.for the first time. The government of Germany is in a coalition
:07:51. > :07:54.agreement for Angela Merkel binding, starting for example with
:07:55. > :07:59.these special role of Germany for its neighbours in the Eurozone.
:08:00. > :08:08.Putting the communitarian method that means strong European
:08:09. > :08:13.community. Major changes in Germany ahead. Really? Now back to the
:08:14. > :08:16.beginning you are now saying because of your influence in Germany there
:08:17. > :08:19.is going to be a greater German commitment to building stronger,
:08:20. > :08:26.more integrated European institutions. To use the
:08:27. > :08:32.communitarian method means that the existing institution should do their
:08:33. > :08:35.job. You spoke of the Troika, the Troika was an institution created
:08:36. > :08:43.inside the European institution to invite the IMF. Do you want more
:08:44. > :08:51.powerful in -- European institutions. Know. My hats will be
:08:52. > :08:57.the same. My job is not to create other institutions. There is a live
:08:58. > :09:01.debate in Europe now. Prompted more than anything else by David Cameron
:09:02. > :09:06.in Britain saying that the time has come to look at the EU's power
:09:07. > :09:13.structure, to redefine it, to open up the treaties and to actually send
:09:14. > :09:18.a lot of powers which reside in Brussels back to the nationstates.
:09:19. > :09:24.And to change some of the fundamental principles upon which
:09:25. > :09:30.the European union has been built. I always listen to this announcement,
:09:31. > :09:34.it was made at a speech in the Hague. I was waiting for the
:09:35. > :09:44.concrete proposals. Which policies he was speaking about. He is giving
:09:45. > :09:47.us some clues in the recent days he has indicated that he wants a
:09:48. > :09:51.fundamental reassessment of the freedom of movement. He is so
:09:52. > :09:55.concerned about the way in which migration is working in the European
:09:56. > :09:58.Union. He says as long as there is such a divergences between the rich
:09:59. > :10:02.economies and the poorer economies within the European Union than
:10:03. > :10:11.migration and the principle of freedom of movement have to be
:10:12. > :10:19.modified. This was seven or nine months later from the G8 speech that
:10:20. > :10:23.now he has become concrete. I listen very carefully about what he says to
:10:24. > :10:25.limit freedom of movement that too in the European Community because of
:10:26. > :10:30.the fear that he has because of the end of the acceptance for Romania
:10:31. > :10:39.and Bulgaria there will be even exodus to the labour market in the
:10:40. > :10:43.UK. This is a problem and I want to check if it is therefore necessary
:10:44. > :10:50.to limit free movement for all Europeans. I don't believe so. We
:10:51. > :10:55.can solve the problem he has, not to get an overwhelming access to the
:10:56. > :10:58.labour market in the United Kingdom and not only with free movement,
:10:59. > :11:03.let's discuss how to solve the problem. The problem goes deeper
:11:04. > :11:18.than Romania and Bulgaria. As Mr Cameron points out, is -- as long as
:11:19. > :11:23.they're divergences, it needs to be reciprocal. If you take my work is I
:11:24. > :11:27.will take yours. Those not it works. In the German coalition agreement,
:11:28. > :11:33.one of the major changes is the minimum salary standard in all
:11:34. > :11:36.European member states. A major change in the European policy. Do
:11:37. > :11:42.you think Mr Cameron will accept that? I don't know, you should
:11:43. > :11:46.discuss that with him. There are other disposals we need to discuss.
:11:47. > :11:52.David Cameron is now asking to limit freedom of movement. This is also in
:11:53. > :12:04.my eyes due to the domestic debate in the United Kingdom, one thing is
:12:05. > :12:08.clear, this and unbalanced development in the European Union
:12:09. > :12:15.and the Eurozone leads to mobility. The best strategy is to increase the
:12:16. > :12:21.capacity of countries like Romania or Bulgaria to use the money of the
:12:22. > :12:25.European budget to improve the life condition of citizens in that
:12:26. > :12:28.country. This is the best instrument to avoid migration into the labour
:12:29. > :12:32.market of other countries. What matter the point about Mr Cameron,
:12:33. > :12:37.he has made it a pledge, he has told the party and the country in Britain
:12:38. > :12:44.that there will be a referendum in Britain. The question will be should
:12:45. > :12:49.Britain remain in the European Union or leave it? He says, he wants to
:12:50. > :12:52.rein in, but only if he can negotiate fundamental changes. We
:12:53. > :12:57.have talked about changing the principle of freedom of movement. He
:12:58. > :12:59.wants other things. I do, as President of the European
:13:00. > :13:07.Parliament, inclined to look with favour upon his position? I am
:13:08. > :13:13.prepared to look at his proposals to the contribution to the debate you
:13:14. > :13:22.introducing your question, in favour. I have checked the proposal,
:13:23. > :13:30.if he makes these proposals, some are interesting, others are rest
:13:31. > :13:39.less realistic. What is not realistic? I try to finish my words.
:13:40. > :13:44.The third contributed to the European budget, the United Kingdom,
:13:45. > :13:48.is asking for a fundamental debate about the European Union in the
:13:49. > :13:54.future. How could I refuse, as president of the parliament, refuse
:13:55. > :13:58.a debate. It is very serious. In interesting point you make, would
:13:59. > :14:04.you care if Britain stays leaves? I think the European Union needs
:14:05. > :14:13.Britain and the United Kingdom needs the European Union. I am prepared to
:14:14. > :14:18.discuss with David Cameron, if the puzzle of the United Kingdom is to
:14:19. > :14:25.improve the effectiveness of the European Union, I am in favour. If
:14:26. > :14:30.it is a view for a political or strategic gain at home, I am
:14:31. > :14:38.reluctant. What are your red lines? The modification of the principle of
:14:39. > :14:45.freedom of movement? On the economic and social questions he raised, we
:14:46. > :14:48.can perhaps solve a lot of problems by using the subsidiary clause of
:14:49. > :14:55.the Lisbon Treaty. Freedom of movement, I'm sceptical that we can
:14:56. > :15:02.have a Europe where freedom of movement for goods and services but
:15:03. > :15:14.not for people. Please, let's be realistic. A union of four freedoms,
:15:15. > :15:17.not 3.5. What we see in the UK right now is a very active debate in
:15:18. > :15:22.Scotland about whether Scotland should be an independent nation.
:15:23. > :15:26.They will vote on that matter. But even as they discuss that, the
:15:27. > :15:32.Scottish independence movement insist that if they vote for
:15:33. > :15:38.independence, they will have the right during the process of
:15:39. > :15:41.establishing independence, from inside the EU, they will have the
:15:42. > :15:44.right to negotiate their own membership as an independent
:15:45. > :15:49.Scotland. The counterargument is that, no, they will have to apply
:15:50. > :15:58.and conceptually from being outside of the EU. What is your view? If
:15:59. > :16:02.there is a new country gaining a new sovereignty that did not exist
:16:03. > :16:07.before, is a new country... No automatic right of entry? The
:16:08. > :16:13.country has a right to apply for the EU. But no automatic assumption?
:16:14. > :16:19.This is Alex Salmond who is telling this to his people. We have never
:16:20. > :16:21.had such a problem but the legal services of the European
:16:22. > :16:26.institutions are looking very carefully at that question, which is
:16:27. > :16:32.not only a Scottish question but also a question in Catalonia. New
:16:33. > :16:36.sovereignty leads to new questions. The European Parliament has had
:16:37. > :16:40.direct elections since 1979 and has gradually increased its powerful top
:16:41. > :16:45.at the same time, the number of people voting in European elections
:16:46. > :16:55.as declined to just over 40%. Why is that? One of the elements of
:16:56. > :16:58.parliamentary democracy is that voters must see their vote matters
:16:59. > :17:08.for something after the election. Is it because, as David Cameron says,
:17:09. > :17:14.there is a lack of a sense of being part of the same body politic? This
:17:15. > :17:26.is his opinion. I have another one. The EU is a community of countries
:17:27. > :17:28.and nations. And the citizens and nations are presented in the
:17:29. > :17:31.European Parliament. But Parliamentary democracy is to build
:17:32. > :17:36.an executive and control an executive body. This is not
:17:37. > :17:40.happening from the time being but with the Lisbon Treaty and the
:17:41. > :17:42.change in the Lisbon Treaty that the European Parliament votes and
:17:43. > :17:47.appoints the next president of the commission, we have a major change.
:17:48. > :17:52.Did you say that the parliament appoints the next... ? That's not
:17:53. > :17:57.how it works in the Lisbon Treaty. The council led by all the member
:17:58. > :18:01.states has a right to listen to what the Parliament tells it in terms of
:18:02. > :18:05.politics but it does not have a duty to appoint a president to the
:18:06. > :18:10.commission that has been nominated by the Parliament. Do you know
:18:11. > :18:17.Article 17.7 of the European treaty? Tell me. In the Council of heads of
:18:18. > :18:23.state of government mixed with qualified majority, 72% of the
:18:24. > :18:27.votes, a proposal to the European Parliament about the president of
:18:28. > :18:32.the commission. After consultation and taking into account the results
:18:33. > :18:37.of the vote, this is the first time the vote of citizens matters for the
:18:38. > :18:41.governments. And my fight is that the governments respect the will of
:18:42. > :18:46.the voters. This is a major change in Europe. If somebody likes David
:18:47. > :18:50.Cameron prefers to continue to decide behind closed doors a deal
:18:51. > :18:53.between heads of state of government, that's up to him. I
:18:54. > :18:59.prefer that the vote of the voters matters. You say this with such
:19:00. > :19:01.great passion because you are the head of the Socialist party and you
:19:02. > :19:06.hope to begin ex-president of the European Commission. Yes, thank you
:19:07. > :19:09.very much, but this article was adopted at a time when I was not
:19:10. > :19:17.president of the European Parliament. Are you saying... ? Your
:19:18. > :19:28.first question to me was that I wanted to regain... And you asked me
:19:29. > :19:31.how to do it, giving Europeans a chance that they vote matters after
:19:32. > :19:39.an election. That there can be an election campaign like in the UK. No
:19:40. > :19:46.one is asking you as a citizen of the UK. I have to just ask you some
:19:47. > :19:49.questions. You are asked as a citizen of the UK to vote for
:19:50. > :19:52.Cameron or Miliband. I want European citizens to vote for candidates from
:19:53. > :19:59.the Liberals, Conservatives, the Socialist, the Greens, who should
:20:00. > :20:02.lead Europe in which direction. You say if the Socialists win the
:20:03. > :20:07.biggest blog in the next European Parliament elections in 2014, you
:20:08. > :20:10.will expect to become the next president of the European
:20:11. > :20:15.Commission, will you? Who are you interviewing? A candidate of the
:20:16. > :20:20.social Democratic party or the President of the European
:20:21. > :20:26.Parliament? That's a good question. I was invited as the president of
:20:27. > :20:33.the European Parliament. I am asking you... Let me make you a proposal.
:20:34. > :20:37.After this, you can invite me again and you can discuss this with the
:20:38. > :20:43.candidate. Right now, you are discussing this with the president.
:20:44. > :20:52.I want strong candidates. So, for sure... More enthusiasm for Europe.
:20:53. > :20:56.UCB commission president, which has traditionally been a job free from
:20:57. > :21:01.partisan politics, you wanted to become a deeply partisan post? I
:21:02. > :21:05.want the president of the European Commission to be appointed after a
:21:06. > :21:11.European election by free, elected parliamentarians. David Cameron is
:21:12. > :21:17.always criticising the EU for not having enough democracy,
:21:18. > :21:21.transparency and parliamentarian accountability. For the highest
:21:22. > :21:24.executive post in Europe, we need exactly that. Be said of the
:21:25. > :21:28.European reforms of the commission has to act as the referee in
:21:29. > :21:33.Europe's political game, not as captain of one of the teams. You are
:21:34. > :21:40.arguing the precise opposite. The reality in Europe is that every
:21:41. > :21:47.Tuesday, there are moves within the commission. The liberal
:21:48. > :21:51.commissioners meet with the liberal parliamentarians. The Conservatives
:21:52. > :21:55.with the Conservatives, the Greens with the Greens. This is an
:21:56. > :21:59.illusion. The commission is a political body. We were talking
:22:00. > :22:03.about the polling evidence of the deep scepticism among European
:22:04. > :22:07.peoples towards the EU and its institutions today. You said in
:22:08. > :22:12.January in 2012 that for the first time since inception, the failure of
:22:13. > :22:20.the EU is a real possibility. Do you feel like that still? Yes. Yes. We
:22:21. > :22:24.discussed a lot of problems. Because the problem are neither publicly
:22:25. > :22:29.debated like we do it, I wish there were more such debates in Europe.
:22:30. > :22:33.And we don't deliver. The calls we are blocking each other. People are
:22:34. > :22:37.losing trust. And it is an experience in democracy. The moment
:22:38. > :22:43.people give up their support of an idea, the idea is lost and we feel
:22:44. > :22:48.every day more that people lose trust in Europe. I try to regain
:22:49. > :22:52.trust with my... And what we could end up with is a European Parliament
:22:53. > :22:57.that has is not the biggest bloc, one of the biggest block occupied by
:22:58. > :23:05.politicians who do not believe in the European Union and actually want
:23:06. > :23:09.to leave the EU. To destroy the European Union. That's your word.
:23:10. > :23:12.Many are so sceptical they would like their countries to leave the
:23:13. > :23:18.EU. Or to leave the European Union. This is true. And would that be the
:23:19. > :23:24.end of this European Parliament, this European Union, if that is the
:23:25. > :23:30.case? We should not exaggerate. If they have 10%, 15% of seats... The
:23:31. > :23:37.polls say they might have 25%. Are the polls the results? If, in
:23:38. > :23:42.reality, they have 10%, 15% of the seats in the European Parliament,
:23:43. > :23:47.85% will not share their opinion. And before opinion polls become
:23:48. > :23:52.reality in the form of votes in an election campaign. And you just
:23:53. > :23:56.asked me what should be the election campaign? The fight for a more
:23:57. > :24:07.democratic and transparent Europe, delivering solutions. That's what I
:24:08. > :24:12.running. That your fight? My fight. Thank you for being on the
:24:13. > :24:29.programme. Thank you. Thank you very much indeed.
:24:30. > :24:36.It has been terribly grey over the past few days but today, we will see
:24:37. > :24:37.brighter conditions with sunshine. With that will come much colder