:00:00. > :00:00.decisions on what we pay for. Now onto it be seen News, a special
:00:00. > :00:11.HARDtalk from the archives, an interview with Nelson Mandela from
:00:12. > :00:14.1997. Nelson Mandela, the first black
:00:15. > :00:19.president of South Africa and a figure of towering moral authority
:00:20. > :00:23.has died. His extraordinary life has been remembered and celebrated, not
:00:24. > :00:28.just in South Africa, but around the world. Ten years ago, I interviewed
:00:29. > :00:32.President Mandela for a special edition of HARDtalk, when he was in
:00:33. > :00:37.Britain for the Commonwealth conference. We told about his life,
:00:38. > :00:39.his love and his earliest days in South Africa's liberation trial.
:00:40. > :00:57.his love and his earliest days in South Africa's liberation trial
:00:58. > :01:02.You statesman of renown. Perhaps one of the most highly respected
:01:03. > :01:07.politicians on the planet. I am just an old man, I thank you. Reading
:01:08. > :01:09.your book, you talk about an early light as they heard ball it in the
:01:10. > :01:16.rolling hills. `` and heard boy. rolling hills. `` and heard boy
:01:17. > :01:32.When you look out, is this what you thought would happen? It is
:01:33. > :01:37.collective leadership. Right from the early days of joining the
:01:38. > :01:46.organisation, the problems of liberation, and of returning the
:01:47. > :01:55.power of liberation... Can never be the achievement of a single
:01:56. > :02:02.individual. Essentially, the type of problems that can be addressed, it
:02:03. > :02:03.is through teamwork. Of people who understand that a collective effort
:02:04. > :02:27.is absolutely necessary. He is a man, I was with him. We were
:02:28. > :02:30.from the Youth League together. I have all respect. If they clashed
:02:31. > :02:38.with them I know I was in the wrong because he was such a perfect
:02:39. > :02:45.gentleman and so a never thought of me being a president of the country
:02:46. > :02:50.because I was satisfied and satisfied with the principle of
:02:51. > :02:56.connection and also I had a great deal of respect for Oliver Tambo
:02:57. > :03:07.because he was a highly gifted person. You described a as by ``
:03:08. > :03:10.diabolical. Can you remember back to a time when you felt the full force
:03:11. > :03:28.of apartheid. I don't wind as the politician but personally. `` don't
:03:29. > :03:34.mean as a politician. How humiliating apartheid has been in
:03:35. > :03:44.the past. I spent 4.5 years as an accused in court and mighty economic
:03:45. > :03:51.position was completely undermined. The fact that I was sent to jail for
:03:52. > :04:02.life, I spent 27 years the. There are things that affected me, and I
:04:03. > :04:08.had experiences. You were put away for 27 years, 27 of the best years
:04:09. > :04:12.of your life. What is the cost of that incarceration to Nelson
:04:13. > :04:19.Mandela, the man? I would like to thank our bit and not in terms of
:04:20. > :04:34.cost, I like to think in terms of the advantages which I gained from
:04:35. > :04:43.being, for serving a long sentence. The ability to sit down and to think
:04:44. > :04:51.about your past. The present. The future. The ability to be able to
:04:52. > :04:59.see yourself in action in the past and the mistakes and weaknesses
:05:00. > :05:07.which you committed and witnesses in the course of your work and she look
:05:08. > :05:15.back. The excitement for the future, and I found it very
:05:16. > :05:17.rewarding. But look at the sacrifice, wouldn't you say your
:05:18. > :05:25.family life suffered, your marriage is offered? No, but I am not the
:05:26. > :05:35.only one. There were thousands of people in similar and even worse
:05:36. > :05:41.positions. At least I made a lot of friends and when I was in jail, many
:05:42. > :05:49.people inside and outside the country supported my family. But if
:05:50. > :05:52.I may say so, as a married man, the thought that I couldn't provide,
:05:53. > :05:55.I may say so, as a married man, the thought that I couldn't provide
:05:56. > :05:59.care and tendered to the people that I love, would fetch me an
:06:00. > :06:12.enormously. It must have been horrible for 27 years. Oh yes. This
:06:13. > :06:19.was one of the things. My wife, Winnie, was without security. She
:06:20. > :06:28.was undergoing humiliation, persecution by the regime. My
:06:29. > :06:38.children also subjected to such persecution. They go to school and
:06:39. > :06:43.the police, look, he is an African child, he has no rights in the
:06:44. > :06:44.school. I have watched you these last few years and South Africa, the
:06:45. > :06:50.last few years and South Africa the way you build bridges, the way you
:06:51. > :07:06.are able to see people, the way they work, you did so much, but there is
:07:07. > :07:09.one man and a sea that chemistry. `` I don't see that chemistry. The
:07:10. > :07:18.click. That is not a correct position.
:07:19. > :07:34.He is a businessman. He was criticised and I got up and they
:07:35. > :07:40.said, he has made a lot of mistakes, some of them fundamental as all of
:07:41. > :07:50.us have done. He was never forgetting the role he played in
:07:51. > :07:58.this country. He ensured that he mobilises his own lobby to join the
:07:59. > :08:05.process of peaceful transformation. Had it not been for the contribution
:08:06. > :08:10.that he made, the process of transformation in this country would
:08:11. > :08:14.have taken... Then all the more difficult. Whether over camp or not,
:08:15. > :08:18.I must acknowledge what he has achieved, the contribution he has
:08:19. > :08:24.made and I can say with all humility. You made reconciliation
:08:25. > :08:29.one of the central themes of your presidency, your presidency and
:08:30. > :08:33.South Africa. The youth feel the white people of South Africa have
:08:34. > :08:40.travelled the same distance as the black people ? `` do you feel. If
:08:41. > :08:45.the white people and this country were not travelling on the same
:08:46. > :08:50.distance, we have achieved it because of the cooperation we have
:08:51. > :08:58.got from all of them. I am telling you about specifically the fact that
:08:59. > :09:10.I was able to build, use your resources, old schools, `` build. I
:09:11. > :09:12.am talking about as individuals. am talking about as individuals
:09:13. > :09:20.Secondly, we have now posted a 13 Secondly, we have now posted a 13
:09:21. > :09:25.separate education departments, we have one Education Department. We
:09:26. > :09:37.have opened the doors of learning to everyone. The whites have been very
:09:38. > :09:45.educated at losing this. We had 11 languages on the same races. Where
:09:46. > :09:48.does this idea come from that the whites have not made the same
:09:49. > :09:59.sacrifices that we have? And you consider this, you have done
:10:00. > :10:03.everything you can to reconcile this country, this country that has the
:10:04. > :10:07.more divided and yesterday it any other we can think of. You have done
:10:08. > :10:10.that with great flair and success. There are some people who say that
:10:11. > :10:19.was the easy part, that you are leaving for your successor, the hard
:10:20. > :10:26.business of redistribution, the hard business of taking from one group
:10:27. > :10:35.and giving to the other. Well, that is a misconception. To imagine that
:10:36. > :10:45.I was acting alone, we must get rid of this. I have on countless
:10:46. > :10:51.occasions said I have been working with a team and in that team that
:10:52. > :11:01.our men and women who are more capable than I, and I say this not
:11:02. > :11:07.from the point of view of any humility. I am stating a fact. Some
:11:08. > :11:14.of them are more capable than I am and what I do is not something that
:11:15. > :11:34.a thought of. It is something that we discussed and the leadership of
:11:35. > :11:43.that will remain behind. They have been in the centre of what is
:11:44. > :11:54.happening in this country. I also admired my audiences. Especially
:11:55. > :12:04.after my Nobel Peace Price. `` Nobel Peace Prize. Nobody knew of Oliver
:12:05. > :12:08.Tambo. He disappeared. Oliver Tambo emerged and put the Congress in a
:12:09. > :12:22.position they had never reached before. It became a movement and we
:12:23. > :12:32.were able to protect South Africa. He has done very well. He has been a
:12:33. > :12:44.disciple of Oliver Tambo and a don't doubt that. If he is elected, as
:12:45. > :12:48.president of ANC and the decision lies with them, we don't have
:12:49. > :12:56.successes but it appears to me that this is one of the most talented
:12:57. > :13:07.people who could easily bring about a lot of respect for the position of
:13:08. > :13:18.the presidency. I don't know anyone better qualified than himself to
:13:19. > :13:21.occupy this position. I said on several occasions that the fact of
:13:22. > :13:29.the President of South Africa... Now the President of South Africa.. Now
:13:30. > :13:34.a ceremonial president and he has done very, very well because I am
:13:35. > :13:37.pushing important duties to him. done very, very well because I am
:13:38. > :13:41.pushing important duties to him. It sounds like a blessing. Last in the
:13:42. > :13:49.Africa. The very month that your people found the freedom, the people
:13:50. > :14:10.of Rwanda were caught in the midst of genocide. Which is the real
:14:11. > :14:14.Africa? We must not exaggerate. It has taken place in Europe throughout
:14:15. > :14:18.history. It has taken place, it is just taking place in Yugoslavia. You
:14:19. > :14:24.just taking place in Yugoslavia You have the case of Pol Pot in Asia.
:14:25. > :14:33.Thousands of people were slaughtered. And you have had a
:14:34. > :14:38.clash between Russia and Chechnya, in which a lot of people died. We
:14:39. > :14:45.are having the same thing in Afghanistan. And there have been
:14:46. > :14:53.disturbances in places like India and elsewhere. So, these problems
:14:54. > :14:57.are not confined to Africa. And Rwanda is a comparatively small
:14:58. > :15:03.country in relation to the rest of Africa. Africa is doing very well.
:15:04. > :15:12.They are addressing their problem. They have now rediscovered, with the
:15:13. > :15:30.annihilation of colonies and that racism, African Unity. It embraces
:15:31. > :15:39.all countries. That organisation has produced eminent people, like the
:15:40. > :15:42.Secretary general. These are outstanding statesman, not only in
:15:43. > :15:46.relation to Africa but in relation to the entire world. And they are
:15:47. > :15:57.addressing such problems as happened in Rwanda. They persisted, for
:15:58. > :16:05.example, in ensuring that very big continent has now been given a
:16:06. > :16:12.government that is democratic. When you talked of and African
:16:13. > :16:18.Renaissance, can you really call it that when Nigeria isn't democratic,
:16:19. > :16:24.where there has been a coup d'etat. Is that really a Renaissance? It
:16:25. > :16:36.depends who you are and how you look at events. If they are going to pick
:16:37. > :16:40.up isolated events, and now, the positive developments that are
:16:41. > :16:45.taking place, you can be concerned. But if you look at the entire
:16:46. > :16:53.canvas, then you will have no other conclusion than to say, Africa is
:16:54. > :17:00.rising to its challenges. President Mandela, you are coming towards the
:17:01. > :17:05.end of your presidency of your party and later the country. How do you
:17:06. > :17:07.want to be remembered? It is better to leave that to the public. It
:17:08. > :17:10.would be arrogant for me to say, to leave that to the public. It
:17:11. > :17:19.would be arrogant for me to say, this is how I want to be remembered.
:17:20. > :17:25.Throughout my life, I have made my mistakes. I hope I have made
:17:26. > :17:30.achievements as well. But it is for the world to decide how they will
:17:31. > :17:34.remember me. And the basis of my record `` on the basis. It would be
:17:35. > :17:40.arrogant for me to say, this is how I want to be remembered. Will you
:17:41. > :17:47.miss the struggle, the politics When I am dead or now? When you step
:17:48. > :17:51.down. Given that I will still be participating. I will remember a
:17:52. > :18:00.member of the ANC in whatever service they want before. So, I will
:18:01. > :18:09.be right there, except I won't have any office. Now, for the future You
:18:10. > :18:18.are a man in love? As I told you, we don't discuss these things in
:18:19. > :18:24.public, from the point of view of my culture. But it is wonderful for
:18:25. > :18:27.me, as anybody else, to be in love. Mr Mandela, thank you very much for
:18:28. > :18:53.talking to us. You are welcome. Things are turning a little bit
:18:54. > :18:58.milder. For most of us, the weekend will be dry but cloudy. It will be a
:18:59. > :19:02.drab affair but it won't be as stormy as it has been over the past
:19:03. > :19:06.48 hours. The low pressure is well away from the UK. Bringing stormy
:19:07. > :19:11.conditions to other parts of northern Europe. This warm front is
:19:12. > :19:15.moving in. 12 degrees in Milford Haven on Friday. We still have the
:19:16. > :19:23.cold air across the extreme north`east. Minus in Shetland on
:19:24. > :19:27.Friday. Still cold here. There could be a few centimetres of snow in
:19:28. > :19:31.places. The risk of icy conditions in parts of northern England and
:19:32. > :19:34.Scotland. Still little bit of snow to come in the extreme north`east
:19:35. > :19:38.during Saturday but I'm up for most places, it will be great. With a
:19:39. > :19:39.little bit of