:00:00. > :00:00.affection. Several heads of state will be taking part in the memorial
:00:00. > :00:00.service or the state funeral of Mr Mandela.
:00:00. > :00:18.Now it is time for HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk. HARDtalk is in
:00:19. > :00:21.Cape Town to meet Francois Pienaar who captained the South African
:00:22. > :00:27.rugby team when it won the World Cup in 1995. It was an occasion that
:00:28. > :00:32.produced one of the most electrifying moments in Nelson
:00:33. > :00:38.Mandela's leadership. He walked into the stadium wearing a Springbok
:00:39. > :00:43.jersey. It galvanised the team and united the nation. So, is the hope
:00:44. > :01:01.and optimism generated by that they alive now? `` that day.
:01:02. > :01:10.Welcome to HARDtalk. Nelson Mandela was your president, he was also your
:01:11. > :01:17.friend. Can you put into words what you are thinking now? I didn't
:01:18. > :01:20.realise I would be so emotional We knew that Mr Mandela's passing was
:01:21. > :01:27.imminent, and we were preparing for that. In actual fact, in a sense,
:01:28. > :01:30.for him to go to rest would be the best thing, because he has been
:01:31. > :01:34.suffering quite a bit. But when the story broke, I became incredibly
:01:35. > :01:39.emotional. And they don't understand why. The last couple of days has
:01:40. > :01:42.been a rollercoaster ride, sitting in front of the television watching
:01:43. > :01:45.what is happening all over the world, and what people are saying
:01:46. > :01:50.about him. It makes you feel so blessed to have had an opportunity
:01:51. > :01:55.to share intimate time with one of the greatest leaders the world has
:01:56. > :02:02.ever seen. Is that right? You shared what you call intimate moments with
:02:03. > :02:06.him? Yes, as a matter of fact, the story about the rugby has been well
:02:07. > :02:09.told. What hasn't been told us what happened after the rugby, and that
:02:10. > :02:13.is when our relationship really grew, and I got to know him better
:02:14. > :02:17.as a person. When he came to the UK, having tea with him, being
:02:18. > :02:24.invited back to tea and having discussions with him on the odd
:02:25. > :02:29.occasion, getting to know the man better than just in the sporting
:02:30. > :02:37.context. You know, on the sporting field, as such. I grew up in
:02:38. > :02:41.apartheid South Africa, and as a young kid, when Mr Mandela was a
:02:42. > :02:47.prisoner, the things that I heard about him were bad things. Sadly
:02:48. > :02:51.so, around the barbecue fires, people will talk about politics and
:02:52. > :02:55.sport. More about sport, because in this country we are crazy about
:02:56. > :03:00.sport. And if the name Nelson Mandela came up, it was accompanied
:03:01. > :03:06.by terrorist, madman... You grew up with that? I grew up with that. I
:03:07. > :03:10.don't know why he never challenged it, it is just the way I grew up as
:03:11. > :03:18.a kid. It would come in one ear and go out the other, but there, it is a
:03:19. > :03:21.words terrorist and bad man stuck. That is why went to university to
:03:22. > :03:24.find out what the man is really like, and that is when you really
:03:25. > :03:29.form an opinion. When he became president, from Brisbane to
:03:30. > :03:36.president, and I got the call to go on scene, you imagine how nervous I
:03:37. > :03:40.was. `` from prison to president. I could hear his voice, from outside
:03:41. > :03:51.his office, he has this magnificent voice, that he `` and he came
:03:52. > :03:58.walking through the door, and the first in a notice was he was a big
:03:59. > :04:06.man. When he said hello, he spoke to me in Afrikaans. Most of our
:04:07. > :04:09.conversation was in Afrikaans. I kept moving to English, and he kept
:04:10. > :04:14.switching back to Afrikaans. That was very special, in hindsight, I
:04:15. > :04:18.didn't realise then how special it was. Nelson Mandela had been out of
:04:19. > :04:24.the public eye, for three years or so, but you sense, coming here, that
:04:25. > :04:29.he had a real presence still. Absolutely. He will hopefully have a
:04:30. > :04:36.presence for a very long time, to come in our great nation. His magic
:04:37. > :04:42.is everywhere. We are talking to you today because of that electrifying
:04:43. > :04:47.moment when you are both in that stadium in 1995, when South Africa
:04:48. > :04:52.won the World Cup. Just described for me what you remember of that
:04:53. > :04:58.day. I remember it clearly. I have not even watch the video of a match,
:04:59. > :05:07.because it was such a special day. The overall emotion for us was the
:05:08. > :05:11.focus to win. Our focus was to win, on the match. As a captain, I didn't
:05:12. > :05:14.sleep the night before. You never sleep well tonight for a big match,
:05:15. > :05:18.because you are tossing and turning. It is the biggest thing that will
:05:19. > :05:22.ever happen in your life, you have one opportunity to make the right
:05:23. > :05:28.course, to ensure the team is relaxed, and you can imagine how
:05:29. > :05:32.tense the players were, having made the final, in your country, for the
:05:33. > :05:37.first time. We had a sense of what it meant to South Africa, so the
:05:38. > :05:39.focus for us was this match, the 80 minutes on the field, making sure
:05:40. > :05:43.that we could take every opportunity. Then we were in the
:05:44. > :05:45.changing room and you are still going through this thought
:05:46. > :05:50.processes. When there was a knock on the door. I looked up, there was a
:05:51. > :05:52.loud knock, and the door opened, and in walked Mr Mandela. I was
:05:53. > :06:13.incredibly emotional. Because.. We incredibly emotional. Because.. We
:06:14. > :06:25.can take some time. Thanks. You shouldn't be doing this when you are
:06:26. > :06:36.a sportsman. No, no. I thought... Take some time. Give me a slap! You
:06:37. > :06:42.were saying, you were there in the dressing room when you heard a
:06:43. > :06:48.knock. And he walked in, and there was a Springbok on his heart, and if
:06:49. > :06:54.you know history, rugby was for the white people in South Africa,
:06:55. > :06:58.predominantly the Afrikaners. At the end of apartheid it became a symbol
:06:59. > :07:04.of hate for the black people, which you can understand. We love our
:07:05. > :07:07.sport, and as an Afrikaner, and I am proud Afrikaner, when you grow up
:07:08. > :07:11.and you can play a bit of rugby, the and you can play a bit of rugby, the
:07:12. > :07:18.question is always asked, is he good enough? You think it can be a
:07:19. > :07:26.Springbok one`day? With the end of apartheid, it hurt the core of the
:07:27. > :07:29.Afrikaners, because sport is a release. When he walked into the
:07:30. > :07:37.dressing room wearing a Springbok on his heart, it was just, wow. You saw
:07:38. > :07:49.my reaction of it earlier, I had that reaction. You bite your lip,
:07:50. > :07:50.you nor your teeth, and he just stood there and he said, good luck,
:07:51. > :07:56.boys. My number was on his back. boys. My number was on his back
:07:57. > :08:01.That was me gone, I couldn't sing the anthem because I knew I would
:08:02. > :08:05.cry. I was so proud to be a South African that day. Do you think that
:08:06. > :08:14.galvanised the team? Did it make a difference? It had an effect. You
:08:15. > :08:20.realise it was much bigger than the game. It was the enormity of it
:08:21. > :08:26.struck me, but we had to get back to focus, because you can't be that
:08:27. > :08:31.emotional. This is 18 years down the line and I still get emotional when
:08:32. > :08:33.I think about it. You can't be that emotional, because if you don't
:08:34. > :08:39.focus you would lose, and we have trained so hard to win. We had
:08:40. > :08:44.played New Zealand on a number of occasions, it was a real opportunity
:08:45. > :08:50.to do something special. Immediately after we left, I took the team down,
:08:51. > :08:59.and the emotion was there, the buzz was there. It was almost like that
:09:00. > :09:03.magic came into our bodies and we were just ready to go. And then, you
:09:04. > :09:07.win the game, and there he is, standing there handing you the
:09:08. > :09:13.trophy. That was incredible. Incredible. When I walked up onto
:09:14. > :09:17.the podium, and Mr Mandela stuck out his hand and he said to me, and I
:09:18. > :09:27.still can't believe that he said it, he said, thank you Francois for
:09:28. > :09:33.what you have done for this country. I wanted to say, thank you for what
:09:34. > :09:37.you have done for this country. It is if he didn't ask or tell the ANC
:09:38. > :09:43.and the lack people in South Africa that this our team, they are playing
:09:44. > :09:45.for us, we are one team and one country. Embrace them. Then we
:09:46. > :09:52.wouldn't have had the support that we have. You say that gain was big,
:09:53. > :09:57.but it was bigger than a rugby game. How transformative wasn't for South
:09:58. > :10:06.Africa? Tremendous. Think it is very difficult to understand and
:10:07. > :10:09.contextualise. When the bus couldn't leave the stadium at night, I
:10:10. > :10:12.realised how big it was when I saw the images in the streets of people
:10:13. > :10:20.dancing, laughing, hugging one another, crying. Like we have seen
:10:21. > :10:24.images on television now that Mr Mandela's passing. I realised it was
:10:25. > :10:27.special, but I didn't realise how special it was. In the next week,
:10:28. > :10:31.there were so many stories that came out the next month, the next year,
:10:32. > :10:36.18 years later, it will still talk about that moment when the first
:10:37. > :10:40.time in country's history we were world champions together. We had a
:10:41. > :10:47.shot at something special. Sport gave us that opportunity. Before
:10:48. > :10:53.that day, I try to get into the mind of a South African rugby supporter.
:10:54. > :10:59.Those people in the stadium, what kind of people were they? How did
:11:00. > :11:04.they change? Predominantly white, mixed English and Afrikaans, but
:11:05. > :11:14.mostly Afrikaners. There would have been in the stadium, people who are
:11:15. > :11:19.politically against the ANC, against Nelson Mandela as a person, and what
:11:20. > :11:22.he stood for. But they didn't understand what he stood for until
:11:23. > :11:27.he walked out onto the field wearing the jersey. I didn't see this or
:11:28. > :11:34.hear this, but I can only tell you what my friends and family have told
:11:35. > :11:38.me. They said it was incredible. The stadium just started clapping their
:11:39. > :11:49.hands and shouting " Nelson, Nelson, Nelson" . What happened afterwards,
:11:50. > :11:52.big men, farmers, people from across the Afrikaans spectrum,
:11:53. > :11:56.businesspeople, farmers, educators, there were all in that stadium, and
:11:57. > :12:01.it wasn't a dry eye in the house. Because there was something special
:12:02. > :12:03.was happening, and they realised something special was happening.
:12:04. > :12:06.something special was happening That some thing special, how long
:12:07. > :12:16.did it last? Has it lasted until now? S yes. Because the moment was
:12:17. > :12:21.so big. `` yes, because the moment was so big it transcended time.
:12:22. > :12:27.Maybe time stood still, and maybe still is standing still, because of
:12:28. > :12:31.the opportunity we got as a nation. And it was sport and leadership that
:12:32. > :12:36.gave us that opportunity. So, in my life, yes. But it is an unfair
:12:37. > :12:39.question, because when I do meet people, and I travelled throughout
:12:40. > :12:43.South Africa, and I still hear stories of where people were in
:12:44. > :12:46.their village, or in the local community, when they were watching
:12:47. > :12:50.this game. So it is an unfair question. We really that moment. You
:12:51. > :12:55.question. We really that moment You will be aware that there are people
:12:56. > :12:59.who say that actually what happened to white people is that they learnt
:13:00. > :13:06.to love the man, but not necessarily what he stood for, which is the
:13:07. > :13:11.upliftment of all black people. Invariably that would happen, but I
:13:12. > :13:15.would like to counter that in saying that the people that I have met in
:13:16. > :13:20.the stories that I have heard is that they have changed forever. So,
:13:21. > :13:25.yes, they respected the man, but they respected his principles. And
:13:26. > :13:29.when they now reflect on his leadership, they wish they had them
:13:30. > :13:34.for so much longer `` they wish they had him. Much longer, we had him for
:13:35. > :13:41.such a short time. So there is that respect, and I think hope that the
:13:42. > :13:45.leaders are following his footsteps will have the same moral compass and
:13:46. > :13:50.values, and energy, and love for the country that Mr Mandela had. And do
:13:51. > :13:55.you think they do? Leaders that have followed him? I am not a politician,
:13:56. > :14:04.you know, we have some fantastic leaders in the ANC, but we always ``
:14:05. > :14:08.also have leaders who aren't doing so well in the ANC. That is why I
:14:09. > :14:13.get emotional when people are using Mr Mandela's name but not following
:14:14. > :14:16.his example. That makes me angry. What as a thank you and request that
:14:17. > :14:21.an iMac because we have so much still to do. We have a long road to
:14:22. > :14:29.travel, we are a young democracy. We have had an incredible start, when
:14:30. > :14:33.the world thought that it was going to turn it ruins, it didn't happen.
:14:34. > :14:38.And the reason it didn't happen was because of leadership. So, 20 years
:14:39. > :14:45.down the line, at the bottom of Africa, this country has so much to
:14:46. > :14:55.offer. In every aspect. To fulfil that promise, it is our duty. We
:14:56. > :14:59.cannot fail Mr Mandela in that. There are people who say he has
:15:00. > :15:02.already been failed, that South Africa remains an unequal country.
:15:03. > :15:09.That it has become more unequal. I That it has become more unequal I
:15:10. > :15:15.see that. Oftentimes we debate that as South Africans. I want to steer
:15:16. > :15:23.back and said that the opportunity still exists within the ANC. They
:15:24. > :15:29.are working towards a better life for South Africans. Corruption is
:15:30. > :15:39.unacceptable. We need to stamp it out. Listening to you just now, what
:15:40. > :15:45.it tells me is that it is as if the nation were built upon the shoulders
:15:46. > :15:52.of one man. Now that he is gone, people will start panicking and
:15:53. > :16:01.saying, can we make it? Not at all. There are some phenomenal leaders.
:16:02. > :16:04.They will pick it up and pass it on. The leaders of tomorrow as sitting
:16:05. > :16:10.at universities. They are 20 years old. They did not grow up in
:16:11. > :16:15.apartheid. They have grown`up in a vibrant South Africa. The rainbow
:16:16. > :16:21.nation. Some of the magazine a fantastic education. They will be
:16:22. > :16:27.the business and political leaders. `` some of them are getting a
:16:28. > :16:36.fantastic education. There are still our fantastic opportunities. Yuri
:16:37. > :16:42.Sportsmen, Nelson Mandela, he used sport. `` you are a sports man. I do
:16:43. > :16:50.not think he used sport, he understood the power of sport. We
:16:51. > :16:55.have not won everything in the past 50 years. He understood the power of
:16:56. > :17:01.sport. It can unite people in a way that nothing else can. If you look
:17:02. > :17:04.at sporting events across the world, what happened in London during the
:17:05. > :17:13.Olympics was phenomenal. Our nation came together. Bradley Wiggins, Tour
:17:14. > :17:20.de France, I can go on. I am proud that British people were winning
:17:21. > :17:27.such an event, and that we won gold medals for them. Nelson Mandela
:17:28. > :17:31.realised that. He realised the power of rugby in the Afrikaans committee.
:17:32. > :17:38.We had to train hard and make sure that we won the match. `` Afrikaans
:17:39. > :17:44.community. When we won the match, a fire was lit. Do you think Nelson
:17:45. > :17:52.Mandela made a calculated move in deciding that he was going to adopt
:17:53. > :18:00.rugby in this way? He might. My view is, having spent time with him, he
:18:01. > :18:03.was so genuine. It would not have just been a belated move to embrace
:18:04. > :18:10.rugby. He understood the importance of it, and he really cared. He was
:18:11. > :18:19.genuine. I have met a lot of people, like you. You know when people are
:18:20. > :18:26.real, and not real. He is real. What is it about sport that gets passed
:18:27. > :18:30.politics? The emotion, the opportunity of another chance. There
:18:31. > :18:37.is always another chance on the sporting field. If you stumble, next
:18:38. > :18:41.week and make it up and be on top of the world. Or you can go to the next
:18:42. > :18:47.World Cup and have another chance. Living in London for six years,
:18:48. > :18:52.sport has that. When England do well on the football field, when athletes
:18:53. > :18:58.too well, it is magic. People are smiling, they are happy. They are
:18:59. > :19:07.champions. The reason other opportunities next weekend. `` there
:19:08. > :19:11.is another opportunity. You have seen the seeds of South Africa's
:19:12. > :19:17.streets. They remind you of the moment after the World Cup. How
:19:18. > :19:22.important is it for South Africans to conduct themselves in the next
:19:23. > :19:35.week also in a dignified way? Very important. I was asked the question,
:19:36. > :19:40.what will happen if he passes? I said we would celebrate his legacy.
:19:41. > :19:46.We have two, we want to. What we have seen on television, I did not
:19:47. > :19:54.sleep. People waking up, getting in their cars, walking to his house.
:19:55. > :19:58.Now, if you look at the way people are gathering, how they are
:19:59. > :20:08.celebrating and dancing in the streets, to say thank you. We had
:20:09. > :20:16.this opportunity. It is now our opportunity to say thank you. What
:20:17. > :20:21.is it that South Africans can do to show the world, and the world is
:20:22. > :20:25.watching, to show the world that they will live up to the great
:20:26. > :20:30.promise that Nelson Mandela made? We have already done that. If you look
:20:31. > :20:36.of the last 20 years, what South Africa has done, it has been
:20:37. > :20:43.phenomenal. If you travel around the globe, there is a lot of work in
:20:44. > :20:48.many countries, the resale of work in America, in Europe, across the
:20:49. > :20:54.globe. In the last 20 years, when everyone thought we would stutter
:20:55. > :21:02.and end up in ruins, we have not. We have been an example of success
:21:03. > :21:07.because of him. He has not been active in politics for a while. His
:21:08. > :21:12.legacy will always be with each and every one of us. We have a duty to
:21:13. > :21:18.remind people that are not following his footsteps that they should. What
:21:19. > :21:25.about you personally? What is it that you do differently now? What is
:21:26. > :21:35.it that you do that you would not have done, had she `` had you not
:21:36. > :21:43.mass Nelson Mandela? His love sets apart from a leader I have met. The
:21:44. > :21:49.best lesson I have learnt is no fear. For his jealous, the people
:21:50. > :21:57.who did terrible things to him in his colleagues, some of these people
:21:58. > :22:07.were killed after he came out of prison in 1993. Again, the country
:22:08. > :22:17.was on its edge. His love for the goodness in people is so infectious.
:22:18. > :22:25.In practical terms, how has that changed you? Are the things that you
:22:26. > :22:31.have done, that you think... I founded a foundation. The reason I
:22:32. > :22:37.did that is because of him, and because of my other mental. He was
:22:38. > :22:44.our coach in the World Cup. We help kids get through school, kids who do
:22:45. > :22:50.not have money. I do not think they would have done that. It has been
:22:51. > :22:55.going for a while. You have? Sons. Nelson Mandela was the godfather.
:22:56. > :23:05.What have you been telling them this week? We have been talking quite a
:23:06. > :23:08.bit about it. I got pulled by one or the other winner is something on
:23:09. > :23:16.television. They say, dad, have you seen this? They get it, they are 15
:23:17. > :23:28.and 14. I thought they would not get it. It was a long time ago. They
:23:29. > :23:32.still remember it. They are very blessed. This week of all weeks,
:23:33. > :23:37.still remember it. They are very blessed. This week of all weeks
:23:38. > :23:45.argue and optimistic man about South Africa? Absolutely optimistic. Very
:23:46. > :24:24.much so. Francois Pienaar, Thank you.
:24:25. > :24:32.We not expecting any major problems from the this week. It is looking
:24:33. > :24:36.altogether a bit quieter. We have some weight and windy weather at the
:24:37. > :24:39.moment. That is thanks to this weather front pushing its way into