:00:00. > :00:00.prices have risen by 500% in some areas. Millions of refugees are
:00:00. > :00:21.experiencing the coldest winter for years. Time for HARDtalk. We are at
:00:22. > :00:23.Monte Carlo for the World Policy Conference, an international
:00:24. > :00:26.gathering of politicians and business leaders from across the
:00:27. > :00:29.world. I speak to one of France's most influential and outspoken CEOs,
:00:30. > :00:37.Christophe de Margerie, boss of the energy giant Total. Does Europe have
:00:38. > :00:39.what it takes to meet the triple challenge of economic
:00:40. > :01:22.competitiveness, climate change and energy security? Welcome to
:01:23. > :01:26.HARDtalk. You are the boss of one of the world's biggest conventional oil
:01:27. > :01:31.and gas energy companies but is it fair to say that you are struggling
:01:32. > :01:42.to keep up with the changes in the energy market? We all are. It's the
:01:43. > :01:46.energy market that is changing and that is changing because the world
:01:47. > :01:50.is changing. What we are doing is not adapting ourselves to these
:01:51. > :01:55.changes but trying to pre-empt them. It seems to be arrogant but
:01:56. > :02:05.it's not. When you are investing such a huge amount of money, maybe
:02:06. > :02:09.too much, you cannot do it by just saying I will see and I will adapt
:02:10. > :02:13.myself. You need to take the position. It might be wrong, so you
:02:14. > :02:18.still have to keep a certain flexibility, but you have to repair
:02:19. > :02:23.for the future of your company, which means trying to understand
:02:24. > :02:29.what the energy world is going to be. It means understanding how the
:02:30. > :02:32.world is changing. Absolutely right but if you look at how the energy
:02:33. > :02:38.market is changing over these last five years, you can see the game
:02:39. > :02:41.changing impact of shale gas and oil in the US and the way that has
:02:42. > :02:46.changed pricing in international markets. You have been making
:02:47. > :02:50.strategic decisions for the last decade and somehow, it seems to me
:02:51. > :02:57.you have not been able to factor that massive change into your
:02:58. > :03:01.calculation is. That is true. Five years in this industry is a short
:03:02. > :03:14.time. We invest over 20 years, 30 years, sometimes more. And we talk,
:03:15. > :03:17.it's true, about shale gas. It's a revolution in the US. The US is very
:03:18. > :03:24.important but it not the whole world. No, but it does mean that in
:03:25. > :03:26.Europe, for example, Total has to look at its investments and
:03:27. > :03:36.commitments in a new way because in North America, you have a completely
:03:37. > :03:41.game changing energy revolution. That person who said that should
:03:42. > :03:45.know that we have been faced with this many times over our lives. I
:03:46. > :03:53.have been confronted with so many different revolution. We went with
:03:54. > :03:59.it. More oil, more gas. Great news. Five years ago, we were talking
:04:00. > :04:06.about peak oil and peak gas. Today, we are not talking about peak oil
:04:07. > :04:10.any more but peak capacity, -- capacity. It's great to have a lot
:04:11. > :04:16.of oil and gas but you have to develop it. But it must give America
:04:17. > :04:21.an incredible competitive advantage. What will be beneficial for the US
:04:22. > :04:27.industry as a whole... Essentially, it means that Europe cannot compete.
:04:28. > :04:31.I cannot compete in the product that is not production. In
:04:32. > :04:36.petrochemicals, we will definitely be faced in five years time with a
:04:37. > :04:44.lot of additional polymers, plastics, coming from the states at
:04:45. > :04:50.a cheaper price and very competitively. That is my concern. I
:04:51. > :04:57.want to talk about politics. You sit in a continent which is committed to
:04:58. > :05:03.the long-term decarbonisation of the economy and it seems to me that you
:05:04. > :05:10.in Total are ignoring this demand from the politicians of Europe that
:05:11. > :05:20.the economic model change and decarbonise is. It's true that I do
:05:21. > :05:24.not like the word decarbonise. Why? We are carbon. We have carbon in our
:05:25. > :05:29.bodies. That may be true but the fact is that by 2050, the member
:05:30. > :05:36.states of the EU... It's not yet voted. It's still a target. And I
:05:37. > :05:44.hope that we will not kill our industry because of putting in place
:05:45. > :05:48.crazy targets. 2050, who knows? But for the time being, we need all
:05:49. > :05:53.sources of energy. Just to say... Why is it a crazy targets? You know
:05:54. > :05:57.better than either the international energy agency, highly respected in
:05:58. > :06:01.your business, has said, and I'm quoting, to have any hope of meeting
:06:02. > :06:07.the two degrees target for the maximum rising global temperatures,
:06:08. > :06:11.we need to leave two thirds of current fossil fuel reserves
:06:12. > :06:15.underground. You talk to me about the potential for more and more
:06:16. > :06:19.exploitation. They are saying that many of those reserves have to be
:06:20. > :06:26.left in the ground. That's exactly my point. First, Europe is part of
:06:27. > :06:29.the world. Europe is not the world. Europe is already cleaner than
:06:30. > :06:41.anybody else and if you talk about France, France's nuclear industry is
:06:42. > :06:48.having a very low level of emissions per head. Lower than Denmark. That's
:06:49. > :06:53.very important to know. And just thinking that Europe in itself or by
:06:54. > :06:58.itself will be reducing the emissions, let's try to focus where
:06:59. > :07:05.those emissions are coming from. And don't say that we are against global
:07:06. > :07:08.warming and climate change... It is the opposite. Total is at the head
:07:09. > :07:17.of the fight. Total, as you know, is the number one energy company in the
:07:18. > :07:25.solar energy business. We acquired a company in silicon valley. It cost
:07:26. > :07:29.over $1 billion. Quite a commitment. 1.4. If you look at the overall
:07:30. > :07:34.expenditure of your company in research and development, let's say,
:07:35. > :07:37.how much of it is targeted at renewables and how much of it is
:07:38. > :07:44.spent constantly looking for new forces of fossil fuels? We are
:07:45. > :07:49.always looking at the best ways to explore end-use those fossil fuels.
:07:50. > :07:53.We cannot be against greener energy. The first goal of Total is
:07:54. > :08:00.efficiency. When we invest in our new development, we invest in how to
:08:01. > :08:04.reduce consumption. For Total and for our consumers. I'm struggling
:08:05. > :08:10.because I understand that from your company, you are planning to spend
:08:11. > :08:19.at least 11 billion euros over the next 15 years on tar sands
:08:20. > :08:25.production in Canada, in Alberta. Which is a very small part of our
:08:26. > :08:30.portfolio. Very small. I'm sorry, 11 billion euros does not sound like
:08:31. > :08:35.small change to me. It's the most inefficient fuel product you can
:08:36. > :08:41.possibly imagine. Al Gore called it the dirtiest fuel on earth. Well,
:08:42. > :08:48.why don't you say this to the prime minister of Canada and of Alberta?
:08:49. > :08:52.Why Total? Everybody has to take responsibility. If the Prime
:08:53. > :08:57.Minister of Canada were sitting in this chair, I promise I will be
:08:58. > :09:03.asking him this question. You are the boss of one of the major energy
:09:04. > :09:09.companies. You have made a decision. I have made a decision to face the
:09:10. > :09:14.demand in a responsible way. To look only to renewables, that cannot
:09:15. > :09:19.exist. We are in the solar energy business. I was criticised for
:09:20. > :09:24.investing in that. I was criticised, people saying it was not
:09:25. > :09:30.my job. If everybody did their job public, the world would be better.
:09:31. > :09:36.What we need is energy. I capable, as Total, to deliver oil and gas in
:09:37. > :09:42.a clean away because it's needed. I just want to understand why, when
:09:43. > :09:48.you have a range of choices in front of you, why you think it's right for
:09:49. > :09:52.Total to engage in an extraction process in Alberta, Canada, which
:09:53. > :09:58.means that three tonnes of sand and soil is dumped for every barrel of
:09:59. > :10:02.oil that is produced, according to Friends of the Earth, and which
:10:03. > :10:06.produces toxic tailing leaks, which already cover 176 square kilometres
:10:07. > :10:13.of wilderness and which are still growing? Why did you believe it is
:10:14. > :10:19.the right thing to do to pursue that business? First, if you know what we
:10:20. > :10:23.are doing, we are reducing our investment in Alberta. Everybody
:10:24. > :10:31.knows that. Why? Because as you just said, we might not need any more as
:10:32. > :10:38.much of that oil sand as in the past. So it was a mistake? Know,
:10:39. > :10:45.things have changed. Today, with shale oil, there is substitution. So
:10:46. > :10:50.we have other sources of energy, cleaner energy. But they are still
:10:51. > :10:57.fossil fuels. We are not making mistakes, we are adapting ourselves.
:10:58. > :11:02.Today, everybody says calm down over the production in Alberta because
:11:03. > :11:08.for the time being, we do not needed. We slow down production. But
:11:09. > :11:14.the environmental groups... We do not do things to please people. It
:11:15. > :11:23.will only please them is rather than saying you are as ending to see what
:11:24. > :11:28.the market does, it will only please them if you say, you know what? We
:11:29. > :11:33.have assessed our long-term strategic options and we no longer
:11:34. > :11:38.believe in this heavy oil tar sands. That's not so easy because
:11:39. > :11:47.again, that's what they say. But then they do not ask about the
:11:48. > :11:53.jobs, the employment, all of those things that are part of the economy.
:11:54. > :11:58.You cannot just be a nice person and say do this, don't do that, and then
:11:59. > :12:06.tomorrow... But you don't want to be a nice person. I don't want to be a
:12:07. > :12:12.nice person to please, I want to be a nice person, which is to say,
:12:13. > :12:16.doing my job properly. I don't want to invest $20 million and then stop.
:12:17. > :12:20.James Hansen, a respected climate scientist, says that unless we leave
:12:21. > :12:25.these marginal fossil fuels in the ground, we have no chance of
:12:26. > :12:30.averting dangerous warming of the planet. OK, let's tackle this issue.
:12:31. > :12:35.Let's face it because it's a very important issue. Who says what and
:12:36. > :12:39.who is doing what. The same persons will tell us that you are
:12:40. > :12:44.responsible for bringing energy to your clients. You are responsible
:12:45. > :12:48.for bringing electricity. You are responsible for people living and
:12:49. > :12:54.not dying. Who takes the decision for what we leave in the ground and
:12:55. > :12:57.what we produce and what will be the source of replacement? If there is
:12:58. > :13:03.any shortfall of electricity in this hotel today, who will be fingered?
:13:04. > :13:10.Us. What are you doing, guys? If there is any problem at the pump...
:13:11. > :13:13.And you think we should trust you to make the right decision for the
:13:14. > :13:18.planet? Know, I just doing my job. I'm not in charge of the planet. You
:13:19. > :13:22.are only responsible to your shareholders. And that's what many
:13:23. > :13:26.people in the world are worried about when you are put in charge of
:13:27. > :13:30.making key decisions. No, I'm not making decisions. The key
:13:31. > :13:35.decision-makers are the politicians. They vote. I not... You know, it's
:13:36. > :13:44.very funny. I am not allowed to tell you what you should do. I'm not
:13:45. > :13:46.allowed. Work on renewables, we do it. Reduce emissions, we do it. Even
:13:47. > :13:51.if we are told by our shareholders that it's not our job. We do more
:13:52. > :13:55.than this because we feel responsible. But then politicians
:13:56. > :13:58.have to take responsibility, which means that they want more
:13:59. > :14:03.renewables, the price for consumers will be higher. I understand that
:14:04. > :14:08.you have to work within a context that is framed by public opinion and
:14:09. > :14:11.political decision-making. One quick thought on one other strategic
:14:12. > :14:16.challenge. Fracking and shale gas exploration in Europe. You are
:14:17. > :14:21.French -based company. Your French president has said there will be no
:14:22. > :14:25.shale gas production in France as long as he is president. Other
:14:26. > :14:29.European countries have said the same thing. What is your view of
:14:30. > :14:47.Europe's position on shale gas exploration? In Europe, I would say
:14:48. > :14:50.that we are not developing as much. Are you wanting to move into
:14:51. > :14:58.fracking in the UK in a big way? If it is possible to do that. Why not?
:14:59. > :15:02.Many people in Britain would be worried to hear you say that. Some
:15:03. > :15:07.will be and some will not be. That is democracy working. If you want to
:15:08. > :15:13.move to Britain and invest in British shale gas, you have to sell
:15:14. > :15:16.to the British people a production which according to many
:15:17. > :15:22.environmental campaigners damages groundwater supplies, damages
:15:23. > :15:27.groundwater communities. I disagree. You think you can sell
:15:28. > :15:34.that when the French government says they will not allow fracking? Yes.
:15:35. > :15:41.It is we are an international company. I pay my taxes in the UK. I
:15:42. > :15:49.pay billions in taxes in the UK, not in France. Why? Because I am making
:15:50. > :15:55.money in the UK. They consider us as a British company, not as French. I
:15:56. > :15:58.am French. My company works on 130 countries in the world. In all of
:15:59. > :16:02.these countries, I respect the decision of that country and the
:16:03. > :16:08.decision of the Parliament. I want a couple more quick answers. You seem
:16:09. > :16:15.very determined to move back into Iran as soon as possible. I said the
:16:16. > :16:22.opposite. But I will continue to consider the proposition of the
:16:23. > :16:30.group. I said that we will not do anything in Iran until the embargo
:16:31. > :16:42.is lifted. Respect the laws. What I have been saying, I said what is for
:16:43. > :16:47.sure, no real peace process will move without Iran being involved.
:16:48. > :16:52.That is the only thing I said. On the rest, Total, we will not move
:16:53. > :16:56.until the embargo is lifted. Why? That is the way it should be. You do
:16:57. > :17:03.not have any choice, that is the law. Exactly. You have settled out
:17:04. > :17:10.of court this very year with the US federal authorities to the tune of
:17:11. > :17:17.$245 million because of their claims that you violated antibribery laws
:17:18. > :17:27.in your dealings. Your team in the Middle East and the dealings with
:17:28. > :17:37.the Iranians are meant. It is true. -- government. It is rather
:17:38. > :17:42.important. It was rather important. The US, you can have this kind of
:17:43. > :17:49.discussion. Did you bribe Arabian officials? Of course not. Then why
:17:50. > :17:53.did you pay $245 million? It is a very strange system. They are not
:17:54. > :18:04.allowed to talk about the settlement. Not without approval and
:18:05. > :18:08.we are out of what we call the three-year period under which we are
:18:09. > :18:15.certain control. So you cannot tell me exactly what happened? I can tell
:18:16. > :18:23.you it did not happen. But if Iran opens up, why should we not go? Why
:18:24. > :18:30.shouldn't you go? It comes down to this and they want a simple answer.
:18:31. > :18:35.Do you believe and trust that the President represents a new start, an
:18:36. > :18:44.assembly that you can do business with? I have not been discussing
:18:45. > :18:51.with them. Until I can, I will not. Some of your team have been talking
:18:52. > :19:03.to them. We have not, it is not allowed. It is not Europe. The
:19:04. > :19:09.American government. I will always be very careful, especially with
:19:10. > :19:11.Iran. At the same time, you cannot see that Iran goes back to the
:19:12. > :19:20.international community because it is acceptable. We had problems in
:19:21. > :19:27.the past. In the United States, it was not illegal in Europe, it was
:19:28. > :19:42.illegal in the States. There were some specific things in the US
:19:43. > :19:45.culture. We were almost a comma. But to be clear, I understand the way
:19:46. > :19:52.you have to be careful in your answers, but just to be clear, you
:19:53. > :19:59.see a major potential for your company in Iran. As for when the
:20:00. > :20:04.international community and situation allows. I see more
:20:05. > :20:14.potential in Africa, Latin America. I have been signing contracts in the
:20:15. > :20:20.UK and Brazil. Especially where we feel the best situation is. Iran is
:20:21. > :20:24.not part of my priorities. And this leads us to the final fought for the
:20:25. > :20:32.interview. You just emphasised one more time what a truly global
:20:33. > :20:35.company Total is. It is an international perspective. More and
:20:36. > :20:40.more of your business is not in France. The headquarters in France,
:20:41. > :20:45.we, marketing, business in France. But you face industrial action, you
:20:46. > :20:48.face a government that is imposing new taxes on you to the tune of
:20:49. > :20:53.hundreds of millions of euros per year. Would you say that your
:20:54. > :21:02.frustration with France is such that you could one day leave France?
:21:03. > :21:10.Frustration exists, but it exists when it becomes difficult to
:21:11. > :21:17.change. Let us be honest. Is the president very bad for your
:21:18. > :21:23.business? No. In France in the refining sector, we are losing
:21:24. > :21:27.money. Do we do not pay taxes. IP more taxes all over the world than
:21:28. > :21:38.in France. A lot of people are frustrated. That is the way the will
:21:39. > :21:44.exists in France. -- law. You cannot tax revenues that have already been
:21:45. > :21:48.taxed another country. Why is it that in the recent past you have
:21:49. > :21:55.talked about, and this is a direct quote, our real problem is the state
:21:56. > :22:02.in France. He said 55% of GDP, a nanny state, this is all stuff you
:22:03. > :22:06.have said about your own country. You do not sound particularly
:22:07. > :22:13.happy. I am not happy as a citizen. I am French. I am Total. It is not
:22:14. > :22:22.the same. I tracked to avoid my personal view is becoming that of
:22:23. > :22:35.Total. I need to be clearly neutral. I know some friends would like to
:22:36. > :22:45.see me. I represent everybody. It is not normal. I was wrong. 57% of GDP
:22:46. > :22:56.is controlled by the state. It is totally abnormal. But I am not
:22:57. > :23:04.against the state. It has become responsible over too many things. In
:23:05. > :23:13.France, people like it. There is a problem, the state. Companies like
:23:14. > :23:17.my need to be more vocal. They need to say why it is the way it is and
:23:18. > :23:26.why it can be better. Why it is not so easy. French CEOs should be more
:23:27. > :23:33.vocal. To say that they are against it. What are they offering? Do you
:23:34. > :23:38.feel confident that Total will still be one of the world's biggest, most
:23:39. > :23:47.successful energy companies five years from now? Yes. No doubt.
:23:48. > :23:50.Christophe de Margerie, we have two ends there. Thank you very much for
:23:51. > :24:26.being on HARDtalk. It was a pleasure.
:24:27. > :24:31.Pretty unsettled week all in all coming up, particularly midweek
:24:32. > :24:34.onwards. Most of the activity will be coming off the Atlantic. It
:24:35. > :24:35.should not be too