:00:00. > :00:12.militants into Israel. Now, time for HARDtalk. Welcome to
:00:13. > :00:15.HARDtalk. The art world loves its labels and
:00:16. > :00:22.categories. My guest today defies all of them. Jeremy Deller is a
:00:23. > :00:24.visual artist who can't paint, can't draw, and professes no great
:00:25. > :00:35.technical skill, and yet he is widely regarded as an important
:00:36. > :00:38.artist in Britain today. He uses images, objects, words and real
:00:39. > :00:42.people to present a portrait of the modern world through the factory
:00:43. > :01:08.floor to the Iraq War. What is at the heart of his creative vision?
:01:09. > :01:14.Jeremy Deller, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. I just talked about how
:01:15. > :01:25.difficult it is to label you, to pin you down. How would you describe the
:01:26. > :01:28.art that you do? That is a very good question. It is art, it is
:01:29. > :01:31.conceptual art, it is based on ideas, but it is art that uses
:01:32. > :01:34.everything that surrounds it. It is not traditional. Most people that I
:01:35. > :01:36.work with have no problem with me being an artist, because they
:01:37. > :01:44.understand I'm doing something interesting and creative. It is a
:01:45. > :01:47.form of art, but it is not traditional. It is interesting you
:01:48. > :01:51.talk about the people you work with. It seems one of the keys to what you
:01:52. > :01:53.do is collaboration. You work with other people to do something
:01:54. > :02:02.collective. Yes. I don't have traditional art skills, as you said
:02:03. > :02:05.in the opening. Everyone can draw and paint, but I just can't do it
:02:06. > :02:08.very well, and I wasn't encouraged to at school. If anything, I was
:02:09. > :02:22.actively discouraged. Is it true that you were thrown out of art
:02:23. > :02:26.class when you were a teenager? I might have been 12, my art teacher
:02:27. > :02:29.and I didn't see eye to eye and it wasn't working. I went to pottery,
:02:30. > :02:33.which was great. From the age of 12 I really didn't do any drawing or
:02:34. > :02:37.painting. I love art, and I love being around art, so I always knew I
:02:38. > :02:40.would do something with it or around it. That is something I had from my
:02:41. > :02:48.childhood. There is something about that love story that I found
:02:49. > :02:52.fascinating. As you say, you loved art but you were not a drawer or a
:02:53. > :02:55.painter, but when you went to college you chose to study art
:02:56. > :02:59.history. And then almost by chance you met Andy Warhol. It wasn't so
:03:00. > :03:02.much by chance, it was planned. We knew he was going to be at this
:03:03. > :03:06.opening in 1986, the year before he died, and I thought, I have to go
:03:07. > :03:10.and be in the same room as this person, because he was such a hero
:03:11. > :03:13.to me. For a lot of young people who are into art, Andy Warhol is often
:03:14. > :03:17.the first point of contact with contemporary art. I thought, I've
:03:18. > :03:20.got to be in the same room with him. He ended up signing some things I
:03:21. > :03:32.had, then one of his entourage chatted to me, and then I met him
:03:33. > :03:35.after that. What strikes me about that is that Andy Warhol was a man
:03:36. > :03:37.who played with the commercialisation of art, the
:03:38. > :03:51.commodification of art. His message was, there is a grey area between
:03:52. > :03:55.art and product. He almost invented it. He really was the first to do
:03:56. > :03:58.this. He set a real standard for other contemporary artists, for good
:03:59. > :04:02.and bad, I have to say. That's the thing, you always made a point of
:04:03. > :04:05.saying you do not want to get to a point in your artistic life where
:04:06. > :04:29.you are not entirely focused on producing unique creative work, just
:04:30. > :04:34.becoming a reproducer. Becoming a factory, effectively. And yet you
:04:35. > :04:37.say Andy Warhol is your favourite. I think it is because he had a very
:04:38. > :04:41.strong idea and kept pursuing it. And he was true to his idea. He also
:04:42. > :04:43.had other ideas, he was into filmmaking, music, publishing, so he
:04:44. > :04:46.didn't see any differentiation between fine art and making a
:04:47. > :04:49.magazine, or making film. Or being in an advert, or working with
:04:50. > :04:53.musicians. And that is very attractive. He opened up for you the
:04:54. > :04:56.concept of art being much more than paint on canvas or charcoal drawing
:04:57. > :04:58.or anything like that? About freedom, really. When you went to
:04:59. > :05:01.the factory and walked around the room and saw someone making a TV
:05:02. > :05:05.show, someone putting a magazine together, you realised he's created
:05:06. > :05:07.this world for himself, and it is all about freedom and possibility,
:05:08. > :05:10.and very exciting. I'm jumping ahead a little bit, the key moment for me
:05:11. > :05:13.reading your biography, this decision you took in your 20s,
:05:14. > :05:17.playing around with the idea of what art is, and what it can be, to open
:05:18. > :05:21.up your bedroom in your parents' house as an exhibit for the local
:05:22. > :05:24.community. It was more extreme than that. My parents went on holiday,
:05:25. > :05:27.and I opened up the whole house. I made an exhibition in the house.
:05:28. > :05:30.With their permission? Without their permission. My mother only found out
:05:31. > :05:34.when she opened up a book later and saw a picture of our toilet in the
:05:35. > :05:38.book. She was horrified because the seat was left up! She didn't see
:05:39. > :05:40.that as art? I think the fact that I have been successful about
:05:41. > :05:45.something, I lived at home until I was 31 and they had no idea what was
:05:46. > :05:51.going on. I sort of had an idea. Now it is very clear that it is OK, and
:05:52. > :05:56.they are very happy. I wonder about that "anything goes" idea. We say
:05:57. > :05:59.anything can be art, but that doesn't mean anything is art. How do
:06:00. > :06:03.we define the difference between taking a toilet and it being a
:06:04. > :06:07.toilet, and then putting it in a different context and turning it
:06:08. > :06:36.into a piece of art? This is the big question. Not even I can answer it
:06:37. > :06:40.thoroughly. I think it is in your mind. If you want to accept that as
:06:41. > :06:43.an artwork in your mind, as an individual, then so be it. If you
:06:44. > :06:46.don't want it that is fine. You don't have to have a crammed down
:06:47. > :06:50.your throat. If people don't like what I do, and don't think it's art,
:06:51. > :06:53.that's fine. The label can be very misleading and can upset people, but
:06:54. > :06:57.you have to remember that toilet, wherever it was put, there was ideas
:06:58. > :07:00.behind it. A wealth of ideas. I want to talk to you now about perhaps the
:07:01. > :07:04.work that brought you to Britain, The Battle of Orgreave, and a an
:07:05. > :07:07.idea you had to re`enact a very important time. A very long running
:07:08. > :07:25.and important battle between the government and the miners. The
:07:26. > :07:28.miners' strike, in 1984. The strike was continuing, there was a
:07:29. > :07:30.stand`off around the Orgreave coking plant, and police moved against the
:07:31. > :07:33.striking miners. Violent clashes. You chose, 17 years later, to
:07:34. > :07:43.re`enact it with hundreds and hundreds of extras, some of whom I
:07:44. > :07:46.think were actual former miners. Former miners with their families,
:07:47. > :07:49.and re`enactors, people who belong to reenactment societies, so at
:07:50. > :07:52.weekends will dress up in Napoleonic costumes, or English civil war, and
:07:53. > :08:02.the American Civil War, which is the second most popular reenactment
:08:03. > :08:04.society. I called it the English Civil War initially, Part Two,
:08:05. > :08:08.because if you lived through the miners' strike, as you probably did,
:08:09. > :08:20.you would realise how divisive it was. It was almost how a civil war
:08:21. > :08:24.would feel like. It was a very divisive time, a very important time
:08:25. > :08:27.in Britain for all sorts of reasons, including the power of Thatcher and
:08:28. > :08:30.her ideas. I'm just struggling to see why it was necessary, why you
:08:31. > :08:42.felt as a public school boy from the south of England, that you needed to
:08:43. > :08:44.explore this. It's not as if there weren't heaps of current affairs
:08:45. > :08:47.documentaries, journalistic books and other material about this
:08:48. > :08:51.conflict. There had been. The thing about the strike is that after the
:08:52. > :08:54.strike there were a lot of books. A lot of people wrote their books and
:08:55. > :09:01.set the record straight on their terms. A lot of the villages
:09:02. > :09:04.published pamphlets on life during that period. Then it went very
:09:05. > :09:07.quiet, and we have things like Billy Elliot, which was a romanticisation
:09:08. > :09:10.of the idea with a backdrop of dance. I wanted to make a very
:09:11. > :09:13.harsh, uncomfortable artwork about the miners' strike, at a time when,
:09:14. > :09:17.in Britain at least, it was new Labour, the art world was on the up,
:09:18. > :09:46.I wanted to remind ourselves of this terrible moment, this trauma. Were
:09:47. > :09:49.you doing it in a spirit of anger? Yes, puzzlement and anger. Instead
:09:50. > :09:52.of writing a book about the miners' strike, I did that. If you have a
:09:53. > :09:56.spirit of anger in yourself, and this goes beyond that work to other
:09:57. > :09:59.works, and we'll talk about that in a minute, do you want to instil
:10:00. > :10:02.anger in your audience, your viewers? That's a very good
:10:03. > :10:05.question, because a lot of people thought I was doing this as a way of
:10:06. > :10:09.healing wounds, but I was doing the opposite. I was doing it to make
:10:10. > :10:12.people angry again. Many people had forgotten about it, or their kids
:10:13. > :10:15.didn't know about it. So you wanted to politicise it? Yes. I'm beginning
:10:16. > :10:19.to think maybe you do have a political agenda. It was a political
:10:20. > :10:31.artwork, and there is no way I can get around that. I saw it as a
:10:32. > :10:33.way... You know, if a child gets murdered or something horrible
:10:34. > :10:39.happens, the police re`enact the murder. I wanted to do something
:10:40. > :10:42.like that. I was very much on the miners' side, and they were very
:10:43. > :10:50.suspicious of me at first. There is still this lingering distrust of the
:10:51. > :10:54.media. There are so many interesting questions about this as it relates
:10:55. > :10:57.to real`life and to art. If you say quite blatantly to me, I was on the
:10:58. > :11:01.miners' side, then that is for you to tell the world from the miners'
:11:02. > :11:11.point of view, where is the forensic reenactment of what actually
:11:12. > :11:39.happened? Of course it wasn't a forensic reenactment. We went to the
:11:40. > :11:42.place where it happened, got the original people who were involved,
:11:43. > :11:45.and made a version of it. It's impossible to recreate a riot, but
:11:46. > :11:48.you go back there, and because you do that thing in that space you are
:11:49. > :11:51.bringing up the questions again. People are thinking about it, then
:11:52. > :12:00.you make a book and a documentary about it. So the phantoms will rise
:12:01. > :12:03.again. You are explicit about the political nature of it, and to bring
:12:04. > :12:10.us more up`to`date with current work, you have just had this major
:12:11. > :12:12.exhibition at the Venice Biennale. Again, some images, photographs,
:12:13. > :12:21.pictures, video, that suggest you are pretty angry about the nature of
:12:22. > :12:31.capitalism. The nature of the world in general, capitalism maybe. For
:12:32. > :12:33.example, people who haven't seen it won't necessarily know, but you have
:12:34. > :12:37.images imagining a popular uprising against the tax haven of Jersey, you
:12:38. > :12:40.have a picture of William Morris arising from the sea grabbing a
:12:41. > :12:47.superyacht. Yes, they were meant to be funny, actually. There was also a
:12:48. > :13:02.humour about re`enacting a battle from the miners' strike. It was
:13:03. > :13:08.absurd, comedic. I wanted those big paintings to be absurd almost.
:13:09. > :13:11.They're like Greek myths, contemporary ones. So, Poseidon is
:13:12. > :13:16.actually William Morris. It is meant to be funny and slightly strange,
:13:17. > :13:20.but it is how I look at things. We have one picture of this wry humour
:13:21. > :13:27.that is worked into this, you've got a thing about cars. Big cars in
:13:28. > :13:31.particular. Yes, I do actually. So let's have a look at this video you
:13:32. > :13:33.have of some big SUV vehicles being crunched up by a crane, and you have
:13:34. > :14:00.put it to music. Here we have smashed up SUVs
:14:01. > :14:04.pirouetting around with this giant mechanical claw, and I think this is
:14:05. > :14:17.part of a wider work that you have talked about being 'A Great Day For
:14:18. > :14:20.Cyclists'. It is actually, the work in question is a huge painting of a
:14:21. > :14:27.rare British bird with a Range Rover, that is very specifically a
:14:28. > :14:32.Range Rover, I do not like them. Being in the claws of this giant
:14:33. > :14:36.erred. So again, it is about retribution. Something coming back
:14:37. > :14:41.from the dead, or a mythic creature. It is destroying this Range Rover.
:14:42. > :14:46.That image in particular that we have seen, and the fact that it has
:14:47. > :14:55.this calypso music. Yes. It is celebratory. It is celebrating the
:14:56. > :14:59.demise of consumerism. Yes, sort of. I'm a cyclist. Everything comes from
:15:00. > :15:03.a personal point. I am a cyclist in London, which means a lot of things,
:15:04. > :15:07.or can mean a lot of things, and the one car you fear more than any other
:15:08. > :15:11.is the Range Rover because the people who drive it drive in a
:15:12. > :15:17.certain way and it is very wide and they are often on the phone and not
:15:18. > :15:24.paying any attention. I am generalising now. But they are the
:15:25. > :15:28.cars you fear. I am getting a feel for your mindset. And I've led us
:15:29. > :15:32.down this path because I specifically want to turn the tables
:15:33. > :15:34.on you in a way and say that all of this association, the personal and
:15:35. > :15:38.political that you have woven into your work, and it has to be from a
:15:39. > :15:42.left of centre perspective, that is what you have brought to the table,
:15:43. > :15:45.and you are working in a world of contemporary arts, in which scores
:15:46. > :15:48.of millions of pounds slosh around, much of it going to successful
:15:49. > :15:50.artists like yourself, you work in collaboration with agents and
:15:51. > :16:07.dealers and collectors in a cosy system which makes everybody frankly
:16:08. > :16:14.very wealthy. So where does your left`wing perspective work in that?
:16:15. > :16:18.Well, we are all part of this world. In fact, the art world is really a
:16:19. > :16:22.reflection on the wider world around us. The art world is not the only
:16:23. > :16:25.piece of corruption that goes on. I am not even saying that it is
:16:26. > :16:29.corrupt. I'm just saying that you bought into a world and you benefit
:16:30. > :16:33.from a world which is so far removed from the political messages that
:16:34. > :16:36.inhabit your work. Well, the art world is not just one thing. It is
:16:37. > :16:41.not just super billionaires on yachts. It is grassroots activity.
:16:42. > :16:49.There are many different art worlds. And I inhabit a few of them. I was a
:16:50. > :16:53.trustee of the Tate. Well, you are part of the establishment. I am
:16:54. > :16:56.absolutely part of the establishment. But that does not
:16:57. > :17:00.mean you have to kowtow to the ideas of certain people who come and go in
:17:01. > :17:05.the art world. Art has always been about power, always. Look at every
:17:06. > :17:09.famous artwork ever. It has either been made for a pope, the king, a
:17:10. > :17:15.prince, whatever. People who are wealthy love to be near art because
:17:16. > :17:18.it gives you a sacred power, almost. Has your success changed you,
:17:19. > :17:23.though? You say that, I am part of this world, but only in a specific
:17:24. > :17:26.sense. But there is a great quote that talks about the Picasso napkin
:17:27. > :17:28.syndrome, where an artist realises that even just writing their
:17:29. > :17:32.signature on something gives it a value. And you know, you have
:17:33. > :17:40.actually reached that status. You are famous. I am almost at napkin
:17:41. > :17:45.status. Has that actually been corrosive? It could be. I do not
:17:46. > :17:49.think it has yet. You would have to ask other people. I think I have
:17:50. > :17:53.kept a level head. I do not sell a lot of work. I do not make tons of
:17:54. > :17:57.money. I don't have that production ethic. You have slagged off others,
:17:58. > :18:04.contemporaries of yours, who you say, Hirst had it then lost it. He
:18:05. > :18:08.is a massive failure because he had it then let it slip. The reason? He
:18:09. > :18:16.realised he could make money out of repetition. Yes, I mean, that
:18:17. > :18:20.happened to Warhol as well. He let it go. The only thing that has
:18:21. > :18:27.progressed is the amount of money he can make. Before we end, I want to
:18:28. > :18:32.look at the work that you are actually touring with right now in
:18:33. > :18:36.the UK. And that is a fascinating exhibition. You have called it All
:18:37. > :18:39.That Is Solid Melts Into Air. What it seems to be is as much a
:18:40. > :18:42.fascinating insight into the social history of the 19th century UK and
:18:43. > :18:46.the Industrial Revolution as it is art in the traditional sense. And
:18:47. > :18:50.let's bring up a photo and then we can talk about this and what it
:18:51. > :19:01.means. This is an emblematic photo in the exhibition. It is a photo I
:19:02. > :19:04.have used a lot in the past. For me it is probably the most important
:19:05. > :19:07.photograph taken after the war in Britain. It shows what is happening
:19:08. > :19:10.in Britain. All the tensions and changes in British society. It shows
:19:11. > :19:15.us going from industrial culture to a culture that is based on
:19:16. > :19:19.entertainment, services, creativity. And the reason it works is because
:19:20. > :19:22.of the link. The man on the left is a traditional miner whose son, on
:19:23. > :19:25.the right, Adrian Street, became a professional wrestler because after
:19:26. > :19:33.going down the mine he realised this was no life for him. At 16 years of
:19:34. > :19:37.age, he ran away to London, and eventually joined the world of
:19:38. > :19:46.bizarre entertainment. And he went back home. He went back home
:19:47. > :19:50.specifically for a Sunday newspaper, which asked him where he would like
:19:51. > :19:54.to be photographed and he said I would like to go back to the pit and
:19:55. > :19:59.show those men behind him who would beat him up, what he has made of his
:20:00. > :20:05.life. So it is a sort of a revenge photograph. The father, who looks so
:20:06. > :20:09.tense and uncomfortable and confused. Absolutely. Who is this
:20:10. > :20:12.person? His father is looking at the future. It is like someone from the
:20:13. > :20:16.future has come to show these industrial people what the world is
:20:17. > :20:21.going to be like, and you are not going to be part of it. I am the
:20:22. > :20:29.future. I always see it almost like something out of William Blake. I
:20:30. > :20:32.find that fascinating. I suppose we can end almost where we began, with
:20:33. > :20:36.the discussion of the concept of art as you talk to me about why you were
:20:37. > :20:39.so moved and taken with this photograph. I am fascinated by what
:20:40. > :20:43.you are telling me, but I am thinking that you are really acting
:20:44. > :20:50.more as a curator would than an artist. Yes, I am. Is that where you
:20:51. > :20:55.are moving? It is one way I am moving. But I like to move at
:20:56. > :20:58.different places at different times. But I love being around art and
:20:59. > :21:03.working with art and mixing art with other things and doing that. I am
:21:04. > :21:07.not a very conventional curator. Because I do not have the academic
:21:08. > :21:13.rigour that curators often have of a theory. I'm more instinctive. So a
:21:14. > :21:17.lot of curators would look at the photograph and maybe not see what I
:21:18. > :21:20.see. I see this as a sordid history of the UK in this one photograph.
:21:21. > :21:25.The thing about Adrian is he is still alive and he still wrestles. I
:21:26. > :21:29.have made a film about him. He's an amazing person. He's an incredible
:21:30. > :21:33.person and a force of nature. I get the whole picture and I see many
:21:34. > :21:41.things and I see history and art history. We have interviewed a lot
:21:42. > :21:44.of artists on this programme, but I do not think I have interviewed an
:21:45. > :21:48.artist who uses so many different media to get his perspective on life
:21:49. > :21:51.across. You know, from drawn image to photographic image to what you
:21:52. > :21:54.call, or some have called, social sculpture, using real people.
:21:55. > :22:04.Obviously you use music a lot, that is important to you. Film. I just
:22:05. > :22:08.wonder, as you move forward to your next projects, what medium means the
:22:09. > :22:11.most to you? Where is the power? The power, without sounding like a
:22:12. > :22:15.cliche, the power is in people, human beings, working with people
:22:16. > :22:18.and their minds. Putting an idea out there and people having it in their
:22:19. > :22:26.minds and the idea of staying within them. So I think working with the
:22:27. > :22:34.public and working in the public is what I like to do the most. So that
:22:35. > :22:38.is something I will be doing. Will you continue, final point, we have
:22:39. > :22:40.talked about politics, I wonder as you talk about the power of people,
:22:41. > :22:43.whether sometimes you are constrained by your politics,
:22:44. > :22:46.whether the message you want to deliver gets in the way of being
:22:47. > :22:50.truly open to as many different people and as many different media
:22:51. > :22:53.as possible. I do not think so. Because I think the way I present
:22:54. > :22:59.work is in a way that is actually quite neutral. I mean, that
:23:00. > :23:02.painting, for example, of the bird with a Range Rover, anyone can
:23:03. > :23:06.appreciate that. It is a skilful painting, but the messages behind it
:23:07. > :23:09.are universal. I did a project a few years ago where I took a car that
:23:10. > :23:14.had been destroyed in Baghdad around the US on the back of a trailer. It
:23:15. > :23:17.was on display all the time and I went with an American soldier and an
:23:18. > :23:20.Iraqi citizen and we just turned up in towns in the south, in slightly
:23:21. > :23:24.tricky places, potentially, and spoke to the public about this
:23:25. > :23:31.destroyed car. It was the most amazing experience of my life. And
:23:32. > :23:37.you could see, that was a very dangerous, very political... It was
:23:38. > :23:42.dangerous and political. It was not specifically anti`war. It was about
:23:43. > :23:45.the Iraq War, but it was about taking something from the museum out
:23:46. > :23:51.and touring it around. This relic, almost, for people to look at. And
:23:52. > :23:54.obviously I had my opinion about the war, but we did not foist opinions
:23:55. > :23:58.on people. We wanted to see what people thought about this car. A lot
:23:59. > :24:00.of them had served in Iraq or Vietnam and they were very
:24:01. > :24:04.interested. We had an amazing response. We did not get thumped
:24:05. > :24:08.once. Art as the starter of debate and conversation. It is all about
:24:09. > :24:10.the response. It is. That was definitely about conversation and
:24:11. > :24:13.provoking conversations which were not party political, which were
:24:14. > :24:17.about this thing that America had got itself into. It has been a
:24:18. > :24:27.pleasure having you. Thank you very much. Thank you, Stephen.