:00:00. > :00:00.assets of Chinese leaders will stop if found guilty he could face jail
:00:00. > :00:10.for five years. Now it is time for Hartill. --
:00:11. > :00:20.HARDtalk. Welcome. It is three years since the
:00:21. > :00:24.uprising collectively known as the Arab sprinkling their biggest prize,
:00:25. > :00:27.ousting Hosni Mubarak that will Egypt for 30 years. The previously
:00:28. > :00:30.banned Muslim Brotherhood produced the countries first ever
:00:31. > :00:37.democratically elected President. -- country's. The Muslim Brotherhood
:00:38. > :00:41.has no designated as a terrorist organisation and their leaders are
:00:42. > :00:44.in jail or in exile. We speak to Yehia Hamed, investment Minister in
:00:45. > :00:49.a government that it expected its own interests ahead of economic
:00:50. > :00:51.crisis which led to the downfall. The new constitution has been
:00:52. > :00:55.overwhelmingly approved by Egyptians. Elections are promised
:00:56. > :00:59.within months. The Muslim Brotherhood telling supporters to
:01:00. > :01:03.trouble the leaders of the treacherous military coup, is in the
:01:04. > :01:28.brother had encouraging the violence it professes to the poor. -- abhor.
:01:29. > :01:37.Yehia Hamed, welcome. Do you accept the constitution approved and this
:01:38. > :01:47.referendum? It is a pleasure being with you.
:01:48. > :01:53.Definitely, we don't consider the referendum that was voted four days
:01:54. > :01:57.ago at any kind of legitimacy and we don't consider that it has a place.
:01:58. > :02:05.The constitution that we have is the one that we had in 2012, and this is
:02:06. > :02:10.the one that was voted for with 64%. It was the one that was given a few
:02:11. > :02:15.days ago, that's one was designated by a military coup regime that
:02:16. > :02:20.ousted as very good portion of the society.
:02:21. > :02:27.This is a constitution approved last week where it had a vote of 89% for
:02:28. > :02:32.yes with only a turnout of about 30%. A fellow Islamist party voted.
:02:33. > :02:38.Your constitution, the monarchy were in government four, was approved by
:02:39. > :02:43.the yes vote of 64% on a lower turnout. Why was that one legitimate
:02:44. > :02:47.and this one isn't ? Is that it should be the other way round.
:02:48. > :02:53.Actually, it is the three numbers and percentages that we always heard
:02:54. > :02:57.during that time, the 98 and 99% which is definitely giving a very
:02:58. > :03:07.good indication about the violation of the system of the referendum. I
:03:08. > :03:13.believe that era are lots of reports that give signs about the violations
:03:14. > :03:17.that happened during this time. I will give you examples. Anyone who
:03:18. > :03:24.tried to propagate for a boycott of this referendum was either beaten in
:03:25. > :03:31.the street or arrested without any kind of case against them. You can
:03:32. > :03:38.find inside the stations of the referendum, signs that give you
:03:39. > :03:44.indication that you have to get a yes vote, as you did on the streets
:03:45. > :03:50.and within the media in Egypt. I believe the problem is not about the
:03:51. > :03:55.number of votes because the big sector of Egyptians is the youth and
:03:56. > :04:01.they almost abandoned the referendum and boycotted it.
:04:02. > :04:03.The turnout is still higher than it was when you were in government.
:04:04. > :04:08.Excuse me ? The turnout is still higher than
:04:09. > :04:11.when you were in government. This is a referendum under a constitution.
:04:12. > :04:17.This is a constitution which guarantees freedom of belief as
:04:18. > :04:22.absolute whereas the constitution passed when you are in government
:04:23. > :04:28.was just protected particularly the position of women is now better. The
:04:29. > :04:33.National Council of women said of your ear near an office that you
:04:34. > :04:37.were the worst for Egyptian women. -- your year in office.
:04:38. > :04:43.This constitution was written with the blood of the revolutionaries and
:04:44. > :04:49.with the handcuffs of the martyrs. 12 of the Egyptians were shot that
:04:50. > :04:56.with live ammunition on the Thursday of the referendum and another two
:04:57. > :05:02.were killed and the second day. That is not answering the question I
:05:03. > :05:06.just put you. What about the state of woman ?
:05:07. > :05:11.I believe that even if we have to revert back to the people of Egypt
:05:12. > :05:18.with a democratic process that gives them the freedom of suppression, FAC
:05:19. > :05:21.any kind of icons that need to be changed in the constitution of 2012,
:05:22. > :05:26.there is a democratic process to do this. You cannot have a
:05:27. > :05:33.constitution, a referendum, over the tanks and weapons.
:05:34. > :05:39.You have made that point. We are going to come to the Army. Let me
:05:40. > :05:44.ask you very specifically, we are going to come to that. Let me ask
:05:45. > :05:49.you that a constitution that has been approved and the comparison of
:05:50. > :05:53.the situation that existed when you were in government for that period
:05:54. > :05:57.of the year. As a set, the National Council for women in Egypt has
:05:58. > :06:02.described your error is a school for Egyptian women. Among one of the
:06:03. > :06:09.quotes from them is that the ending of the quota for women MPs which
:06:10. > :06:12.were a number of MPs were women went down from 12% to 2% between two
:06:13. > :06:17.elections, 2010 and 2012. One woman who speaks of the organisation said
:06:18. > :06:21.that of your government back in March of last you when it was an
:06:22. > :06:23.office, they tried to make them was whatever gains they got from the
:06:24. > :06:29.revolution. This process democratic we were. To
:06:30. > :06:34.find a state owned entity or body criticising the constitution and
:06:35. > :06:40.something in our favour. Believe me, I wouldn't challenge you if I
:06:41. > :06:43.said that we have got some items that need to be changed, items they
:06:44. > :06:47.need to be reviewed in a constitution of 2012. I can give you
:06:48. > :06:53.many other examples in this constitution that is anti- freedom.
:06:54. > :06:57.I believe the constitution is also not good on the practice on the
:06:58. > :07:03.ground. I can give you the constitution which enforces the
:07:04. > :07:10.military. As did your constitution. It required that the Defence
:07:11. > :07:13.Minister had to be a member of the Armed Forces. That is the case in
:07:14. > :07:19.this constitution. It isn't any difference. Isn't it the case that
:07:20. > :07:26.there is a process under way will have the constitution, then we have
:07:27. > :07:30.an election for the President or a similar, we don't know which order
:07:31. > :07:35.yet. You saying we will encourage our supporters to engage with it, we
:07:36. > :07:41.won't trash it and get involved. Definitely. This is the whole
:07:42. > :07:45.scenario that the regime wants is to be in but I give you the other
:07:46. > :07:49.version of the story that we have an elected President, and this is the
:07:50. > :07:54.first elected President since 7000 years of Egypt. He has been
:07:55. > :08:00.captivated. Here has been held in an unknown place for five months. He
:08:01. > :08:03.has then released along with his presidential team and we have a
:08:04. > :08:09.democratic process. People in Egypt after the revolution came out and
:08:10. > :08:14.called for freedom and social justice and liberty. I believe that
:08:15. > :08:19.the scenario of what you are referring to, all of this needs to
:08:20. > :08:23.be understood that this is in Egypt and that is dragged down of the
:08:24. > :08:31.democratic process, the Democratic process came out...
:08:32. > :08:35.One of the things that happened was a deterioration of the economy.
:08:36. > :08:41.Isn't that essentially the catalyst for what led to the protests that
:08:42. > :08:44.let the Army to intervene and remove President Morsi from office?
:08:45. > :08:52.Inflation, petrol shortage, water shortages, power cuts. One of the
:08:53. > :08:59.party's involved in against your government said that one of the
:09:00. > :09:02.things they enjoyed for 30 years in Egypt was that they didn't have
:09:03. > :09:06.blackouts especially in the cities. Under the Muslim Brotherhood they
:09:07. > :09:11.had blackouts. This is quite sarcastic because in
:09:12. > :09:16.winters now, in Egypt, you have under military rule, their very high
:09:17. > :09:22.percentage of electricity cutouts in the main cities but actually, nobody
:09:23. > :09:30.speaks out because of the fear of the Army. Because of the Army, the
:09:31. > :09:35.years during the staff that run the country...
:09:36. > :09:41.You many Armed Forces was to mark -- forces ?
:09:42. > :09:50.Exactly. We had 2.4% GDP growth and during this year, which under the
:09:51. > :09:56.General of the arms rule, the GDP growth was only 1.1%. A can give you
:09:57. > :10:00.another example for this. Don't. I will give you some examples which
:10:01. > :10:08.under Hosni Mubarak the growth was 5%. Under him, the budget deficit
:10:09. > :10:10.was eight when 3%. And he was more. We can throw numbers at each other
:10:11. > :10:16.all through this programme. No, we cannot.
:10:17. > :10:24.People's experiences of the economy were serious that meant that people
:10:25. > :10:28.were suffering. You acknowledged there was a problem with the
:10:29. > :10:32.financial crisis and an article. I agree there is a financial crisis
:10:33. > :10:36.but let's compare numbers with each other. I can give you numbers of
:10:37. > :10:41.inflation. Let's not compare numbers because we
:10:42. > :10:45.will go like this all day. Let's look at what happened. The IMF, the
:10:46. > :10:51.International Organisation, stood willing to lend money to Egypt,
:10:52. > :10:55.ready and waiting. A provisional deal had been done. Then, according
:10:56. > :11:01.to I think tank, the Muslim Brotherhood through the Freedom and
:11:02. > :11:04.Justice Party, its political wing of President Morsi, decided to put it
:11:05. > :11:09.on hold and consolidate its position. So $4.8 billion which
:11:10. > :11:14.could have helped the people of Egypt, your government make the
:11:15. > :11:23.changes you said you wanted to make, it was turned down.
:11:24. > :11:29.I ask you, when you ask me questions about the economy, don't try and put
:11:30. > :11:33.the status, and don't try and have the answers from me. I am saying
:11:34. > :11:40.that the economy that yes, we have got the economy numbers but if you
:11:41. > :11:45.compare what we were going to take from the IMF, you have to compare
:11:46. > :11:48.and to the $12 billion from the US. But you didn't take it, at least
:11:49. > :11:56.they took it. No, it is because the Gulf states
:11:57. > :12:00.accepted, they didn't give us any kind of help is if we were being
:12:01. > :12:04.penalised for the revolution from January.
:12:05. > :12:09.But the point is, the rest of the world was prepared to help you.
:12:10. > :12:14.I can give you an example of the IMF. We had a meeting in which was
:12:15. > :12:19.President and there was compulsory demands that we increased the number
:12:20. > :12:30.of attacks from 10% to 12% all at one go. They called it a structural
:12:31. > :12:34.change of the economy. They told us that we have to take all of the
:12:35. > :12:39.subsidy after the main substance that we get over for the people. We
:12:40. > :12:43.said, if you want us to take this one, and we are happy to do so with
:12:44. > :12:47.structural change, we have to understand that we are in a
:12:48. > :12:50.formation in Egypt and we have to respect that there are more than 25%
:12:51. > :12:55.of Egypt under the poverty line. I believe this is something that I
:12:56. > :12:58.have been supporting along with other European countries that have
:12:59. > :13:02.been trained to enforce and give something that nobody knows about.
:13:03. > :13:08.The Ambassador of the states wants to look to Morsi and say, if you
:13:09. > :13:15.want to take from the IMF I believe you have to governmental changes.
:13:16. > :13:19.This gives you an indication of what used to happen in Egypt. They were
:13:20. > :13:26.calling for freedom of Egypt and there were calling us... See you are
:13:27. > :13:27.saying you didn't take the money because it imposed political
:13:28. > :13:31.controls on new ? Some observers have said...
:13:32. > :13:37.It is not political at all. We wouldn't accept it.
:13:38. > :13:46.In the final analysis, and Institute in Washington representative said
:13:47. > :13:49.that people had taught the Muslim Brotherhood that red is more
:13:50. > :13:53.important than ideas. I believe the question is in the
:13:54. > :13:58.hands of the people. They gave the answer, they ? They
:13:59. > :14:01.protested embassy to have you thrown out of office.
:14:02. > :14:08.I believe this is democracy. They were protesting in the streets. This
:14:09. > :14:13.is democracy. This is to have the people protesting over economic or
:14:14. > :14:19.political positions. This is pure democracy. If you go out on the
:14:20. > :14:27.streets and put on demonstrations now, you have girls being sentenced
:14:28. > :14:32.over in 11 years just to be outside. Although it was commuted to as a
:14:33. > :14:36.suspended sentence on appeal and they were released but your point
:14:37. > :14:41.about protests is an important one. We will go on to that. Let's stay,
:14:42. > :14:44.Fera few more minutes, onto the period of government.
:14:45. > :14:55.Mohammed Morsi one the presidency with the voters. One of the more
:14:56. > :14:59.tolerant of critics? What happened when the Liberals and Christians
:15:00. > :15:04.walked out of the drafting process for the Constitution? He didn't try
:15:05. > :15:15.to get a compromise. He took new powers. As critics said, in the
:15:16. > :15:20.words of the former IAEA diplomats, he made himself Egypt's Newton
:15:21. > :15:32.Ferrers. I will give you some examples. The party constituted was
:15:33. > :15:39.inside the group for six months. They read the whole Constitution.
:15:40. > :15:43.Just before we had it for the referendum and beating, they were
:15:44. > :15:49.out of the constitutional committee. I can understand where you're coming
:15:50. > :15:54.from. People might say the President was stubborn or he was trying to
:15:55. > :15:58.have his own people under the government. But for the three
:15:59. > :16:05.changes in the Cabinet that happened during the one-year that Mohammed
:16:06. > :16:17.Morsi was in office, he had all parties including the opposition to
:16:18. > :16:21.come. What about before the people protesting who were taken to a
:16:22. > :16:28.detention centre? According to a police report, your party headed the
:16:29. > :16:34.detainees over. They were then beaten. Your reaction? Instead of
:16:35. > :16:40.condemning illegal detention, Mohammed Morsi spoke out against the
:16:41. > :16:47.victims of the attack. That is not a very tolerant approach to dissent,
:16:48. > :16:52.is it? What happened then, eight people from the FTP were killed.
:16:53. > :17:01.Eight people. They lost their innocent souls. Is it eye for an
:17:02. > :17:06.eye? When you have 217 people were detained and were given to police,
:17:07. > :17:11.they were released on the same day. We are condemning any violence. The
:17:12. > :17:16.President said there needs to be an investigation over this. You have to
:17:17. > :17:22.understand as well that they want to our is being questioned for the
:17:23. > :17:28.deaths of these people. I felt pariahs by the guns pointed at me.
:17:29. > :17:32.According to a man last July during the protest. He was talking to
:17:33. > :17:38.Amnesty International. I was dragged on the ground, beaten and given
:17:39. > :17:41.electric shocks. It was by people who supported Mohammed Morsi. Maybe
:17:42. > :17:48.not members of the party but they were there to support him. Violence
:17:49. > :17:52.followed. The organisation verified 11 people died after being tortured
:17:53. > :17:57.by supporters of Mohammed Morsi. This is the background. This is
:17:58. > :18:06.followed your government. This is not the background. Eight people out
:18:07. > :18:18.of the ten who died were from the STB. -- FGB. Again, I am not at all
:18:19. > :18:23.trying to justify it any kind of violence. If some people have
:18:24. > :18:32.committed a crime or have committed an estate that is NT the wall of
:18:33. > :18:37.law, they have to be sentenced or judged an equal environment. The
:18:38. > :18:43.question is, what happened to the people who killed those 11 people
:18:44. > :18:51.altogether? What happened to them? They were set free. The problem has
:18:52. > :18:59.become, by the beginning of July, was... There was no law and order. A
:19:00. > :19:05.large people were on streets. The other action the army took,
:19:06. > :19:11.according to an interview, it was civil war.
:19:12. > :19:22.This is the story that the general tried to give the people. This is
:19:23. > :19:27.quite sarcastic. What he said exactly before this, a couple of
:19:28. > :19:33.months before, is that the army went to the streets. What you are saying
:19:34. > :19:40.is that if the army goes to the streets, there will be a lot of
:19:41. > :19:45.violence. -- he is. They went to the streets and killed more than 7000
:19:46. > :19:49.people with tanks and weapons. Numbers will always be negotiable.
:19:50. > :19:56.Nobody can deny that thousands were killed. It raises the question, what
:19:57. > :20:03.happens for your organisation? You were an illegal organisation for the
:20:04. > :20:07.charitable work is to carry out a Mubarak did not allow you to carry
:20:08. > :20:14.out. The Muslim Brotherhood is designated as a terrorist
:20:15. > :20:18.organisation. The regime has described you as a terrorist
:20:19. > :20:24.organisation. The fact is, they are in power right now, whether you
:20:25. > :20:29.think it is a key factor government. What does it mean for you? Actually,
:20:30. > :20:35.I am really surprised. -- the factor. The European states are
:20:36. > :20:43.still backing up the regime. Since the Mubarak time, they are giving
:20:44. > :20:46.one statement. (CROSSTALK).. Were does it leave the Muslim
:20:47. > :20:57.Brotherhood? It is encouraging supporters to protest. Protest leads
:20:58. > :21:01.to violence. No. This is not by any definition that protesting means
:21:02. > :21:07.violence. We have been saying that our protests will be peaceful. If
:21:08. > :21:13.you say the protesting is equal to violence, this is what the regime is
:21:14. > :21:19.trying to propagate over the media. Excuse me, I am not trying to do
:21:20. > :21:23.that. This is the word of one of your supporters. This is an
:21:24. > :21:28.organisation bought for 85 years under a fascist regime. That is our
:21:29. > :21:34.comfort zone. The army pushed us back into it. Either would push the
:21:35. > :21:39.military backed or we die trying. People have died. Other activists
:21:40. > :21:45.have died after a confrontation with the armed forces. You can say they
:21:46. > :21:53.killed him. I did not read the circumstances. (CROSSTALK). Even at
:21:54. > :22:04.the answer. -- he did not kill himself. He is not able to see his
:22:05. > :22:11.family. The doctor was one of the figures of the revolution of 25th of
:22:12. > :22:18.January. He was kept in a bathroom for 60 consecutive days. This is
:22:19. > :22:24.exactly what happened. To give you a very straight statement that we as
:22:25. > :22:28.the Muslim Brotherhood calling all of our people to protest peaceful
:22:29. > :22:33.and tell we restored the legitimacy back and our freedom back. We are
:22:34. > :22:37.here to restore them and race. (CROSSTALK).
:22:38. > :22:49.Your website says, rejuvenating your activities. Your destiny is to
:22:50. > :22:54.topple the leaders in a treacherous military coup. I have never heard
:22:55. > :22:58.anyone in top order without a shot being fired or a rock being thrown
:22:59. > :23:03.or somebody being injured or killed. Is there a danger to enthusiastic
:23:04. > :23:08.supporters will end up becoming violence because they think it is
:23:09. > :23:16.the only path left? We are anti- violence. We believe all Egyptians
:23:17. > :23:21.will give the pure example of how innocence and peacefulness will be
:23:22. > :23:32.able to defeat the borders of the army. Definitely. Even if this is
:23:33. > :23:38.sacrificed. We are very much given our souls for the freedom of the
:23:39. > :23:44.Egyptian people. Violence will be on the shoulders and has made a coup
:23:45. > :23:48.d'etat with the support of the regional and international allies,
:23:49. > :23:53.unfortunately. But I promise that in a couple of days, the revolution is
:23:54. > :23:59.coming back on the streets, an 25th of January, for the freedom and
:24:00. > :24:10.justice and for making sure we get our dreams of the revolution. Yehia
:24:11. > :24:13.Hamed of the Muslim Brotherhood. Thank you very much for joining us
:24:14. > :24:35.on HARDtalk. 24 hours ago, it was about fog and
:24:36. > :24:37.frost. At