:00:00. > :00:00.towns considered strongholds of President Yanukovych. In Kiev they
:00:00. > :00:00.took over the headquarters of the Justice Ministry.
:00:07. > :00:12.Those are the headlines, time for HARDtalk.
:00:13. > :00:24.The official residence of the art Bishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby.
:00:25. > :00:28.He has just embarked on a two of four African countries, all touched
:00:29. > :00:35.by a vicious bloody conflict, Democratic Republic of Congo,
:00:36. > :00:42.Rwanda, Burundi. He wants to visit as many communities in Africa as he
:00:43. > :00:46.can. Can he help heal the divisions in these countries? And what are his
:00:47. > :00:51.answers to critics who say religion is partly to blame for ethnic hatred
:00:52. > :00:57.and killings? The church is polarised on issues such as same-sex
:00:58. > :01:10.marriage and gay priest. Can he keep the church together?
:01:11. > :01:21.Archbishop Justin Welby welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. You have chosen
:01:22. > :01:26.for countries in Africa either in the midst of conflict or emerging
:01:27. > :01:36.from it. Difficult, like? The Anglican community is in 145
:01:37. > :01:42.countries, with 37 had watchers who are across the world and it is my
:01:43. > :01:47.business to keep in touch with all of them. These are countries, three
:01:48. > :01:52.of which I know, not South Sudan but Burundi, Rwanda and Democratic
:01:53. > :01:58.Republic of Congo. The first treaty -- duty is to be a longside the
:01:59. > :02:03.Billy and the people who are leading our churches in many of these
:02:04. > :02:11.countries. Archbishop Daniel in the South Sudan particularly. Do you
:02:12. > :02:14.have a sense that the Church can play an important role in promoting
:02:15. > :02:22.reconciliation? I have a stronger sense than that. The evidence is
:02:23. > :02:26.over the years that the work of the churches, not just the Anglican
:02:27. > :02:31.Church, but the churches in general, has been crucial in many of these
:02:32. > :02:37.areas in setting up reconciliation processes. ARA functional
:02:38. > :02:42.organisation. When are you making appeals, with the Vatican, appealing
:02:43. > :02:48.to the warring parties in South Sudan to stop the fighting, you
:02:49. > :02:52.said, we pray all of you in South Sudan may become instruments of
:02:53. > :02:57.peace. Many committed Christians are in South Sudan including Salva Kiir
:02:58. > :03:05.who goes to church regularly, but you get the sense that you and Pope
:03:06. > :03:09.Francis made the appeal, but who was listening? The fighting carried on
:03:10. > :03:13.many people were killed also. Because you can't do anything,
:03:14. > :03:18.doesn't mean you should do nothing at all. Pressure in conflict is the
:03:19. > :03:23.cumulative. In the end, the warring parties decide to stop fighting.
:03:24. > :03:28.External people can't stop the fighting but they can encourage an
:03:29. > :03:35.end. The accumulation of pressure from many sources is one factor that
:03:36. > :03:42.helps people to stop fighting. It is important to talk about it, to
:03:43. > :03:44.appeal for peace, and it may not have an instant reaction but it is
:03:45. > :03:49.an added bit of weight. Should be international community do more to
:03:50. > :03:56.encourage an end to the fighting? Although it may unravel yet because
:03:57. > :04:04.the rebels have not given up arms. The ceasefire agreement signed, as
:04:05. > :04:08.you say, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, the international
:04:09. > :04:13.community must come back in every way possible to back the initial
:04:14. > :04:21.step. It is a cessation of hostilities, not a peace agreement.
:04:22. > :04:25.More or less, status quo. The international community needs to
:04:26. > :04:31.continue as the Security Council has done the increase of the UN troops
:04:32. > :04:38.there so that ceasefire can be monitored and observed. To encourage
:04:39. > :04:44.and put pressure on local parties to stand by what they signed. Are you
:04:45. > :04:49.worried about South Sudan? A brilliant birthright in 2011. My
:04:50. > :04:56.experience in working in countries post- conflict over many years is
:04:57. > :04:58.that the impact of conflict on a society is devastating, long-lasting
:04:59. > :05:04.and difficult to deal with. Any country that had been in half a
:05:05. > :05:16.century of conflict is going to have major issues. Worried? Gas, I think
:05:17. > :05:21.it will always be a worry. -- yes. 10,000 killed in South Sudan, half a
:05:22. > :05:26.million displaced, William Hague says he supports the African union
:05:27. > :05:30.decision to establish a commission of enquiry into alleged crimes
:05:31. > :05:34.committed on both sides and calling on them to the whopper rate to
:05:35. > :05:40.ensure those responsible are held accountable. Would you like to see
:05:41. > :05:46.the perpetrators held to account, however senior their position even
:05:47. > :05:51.if it goes to the top? One of the biggest problems in all post-
:05:52. > :05:56.conflict societies is impunity. The answer to your question is yes might
:05:57. > :06:04.we must make sure there is no impunity. But it must not look like
:06:05. > :06:09.external forces enforcing a certain something on the South Sudan. It
:06:10. > :06:13.needs to be the South Sudanese who deal with this. With the support and
:06:14. > :06:17.Corporation of the international community. You went to Democratic
:06:18. > :06:25.Republic of Congo, Rwanda and Burundi, did you hope to make a
:06:26. > :06:29.difference that? The main aim of going there is to meet the primates
:06:30. > :06:34.of the Anglican Church in each of those countries. It is to see them,
:06:35. > :06:38.talk to them on site in their area and listen to what they have to
:06:39. > :06:41.say. You won't meet political leaders? Inevitably you do. The
:06:42. > :06:46.president of Rwanda? I don't know, quite possibly. Would you raise
:06:47. > :06:54.within the murder in South Africa of the opposition figure from Rwanda
:06:55. > :06:59.who was found murdered, after you had said something along these
:07:00. > :07:03.lines: Anyone who betrays our courts or wishes our people ill will fall
:07:04. > :07:08.victim. The US said that the President 's statements about
:07:09. > :07:17.consequences who Mac the trade Rwanda. Archbishop of Canterbury 's
:07:18. > :07:22.have been meeting had a government since 597. We have experienced
:07:23. > :07:29.dealing with these situations. One is always blunt and forthright about
:07:30. > :07:40.it. My predecessor was when he met President Mugabe. Extremely blunt.
:07:41. > :07:43.You have talked about how the church and its leaders can promote
:07:44. > :07:49.reconciliation in countries emerging from conflict. But there is a body
:07:50. > :07:54.of opinion that says that faith promotes violence and division. What
:07:55. > :08:02.is your answer to that? That is a good question and it is complex. The
:08:03. > :08:09.best illustration I have heard was from eight friend of mine who is a
:08:10. > :08:15.Nigerian Archbishop. He said in many African places, conflict rest on
:08:16. > :08:21.three cooking stones. One stone is ethnicity, one stone is economy,
:08:22. > :08:27.particularly in areas with high youth unemployment, and one stone is
:08:28. > :08:34.often religion. Another way I talk about it is that faith is the
:08:35. > :08:42.easiest hook on which to handle all hang much more complex issues. It is
:08:43. > :08:45.simple, you are of one faith so your bad and I'm of another so I'm good.
:08:46. > :08:53.Let me give a public intellectual here a philosopher, said this in May
:08:54. > :08:58.last year that, offenders of religion like to bridge rate faith
:08:59. > :09:08.as a source of peace and fellowship and condemn those who commit
:09:09. > :09:12.atrocities. But the daily news media shows how far this is from being
:09:13. > :09:19.invariably true. In fact, the relentless bad news about religion
:09:20. > :09:25.promoted violence shows the more zealous people are in there zealous
:09:26. > :09:25.beliefs, the more likely they are to behave in non- rational or
:09:26. > :09:31.antisocial ways. He says that faith is the problem, it is not just a
:09:32. > :09:36.convenient peg on which to hang problems. I don't accept his premise
:09:37. > :09:39.to start with. We can throw examples but tell Dietrich on offer that his
:09:40. > :09:44.faith was contributing to violence. Rather than him giving his life for
:09:45. > :09:54.the sake of defeating the Nazi atrocities . Tell that to many of
:09:55. > :10:07.African leaders who have often died in the cause of peace. It is
:10:08. > :10:13.nonsense from beginning to end. Of faith is misused. Human beings
:10:14. > :10:20.naturally use things to their own advantage, including belief. To wipe
:10:21. > :10:28.out faith in general in those terms doesn't make sense. White how would
:10:29. > :10:33.you describe what is going on in the Middle East, be it Syria, which a
:10:34. > :10:42.BBC correspondent covered. People told him they work in blamed because
:10:43. > :10:49.they were Christian. If you look at Iraqi, where you have been, and you
:10:50. > :10:54.know how the Christian minorities there are persecuted, it is about
:10:55. > :11:02.faith. Not exclusively. I've been threatened because of my faith at
:11:03. > :11:08.points, working in areas like that. But even at those times, one was
:11:09. > :11:15.aware it was not exclusively about faith, but people were threatening
:11:16. > :11:22.me because I was from Britain and we had troops in place, or because I
:11:23. > :11:32.represented something they disliked . It is a huge complex issue. That
:11:33. > :11:41.was in Nigeria? At one point. You thought you would die. At one point,
:11:42. > :11:48.yes. He says every time he goes to Nigeria his heart is in his mouth. I
:11:49. > :11:54.haven't heard that. That's very kind of him. Talking about Nigeria, they
:11:55. > :11:59.have issued another warning saying the consensus is the Christian
:12:00. > :12:03.community will be left with no option but to respond appropriately
:12:04. > :12:09.if they are any further attacks on members, churches and property. Do
:12:10. > :12:15.you think these two communities, the Christians and Muslims, can live
:12:16. > :12:17.together in peace in countries like Nigeria, when you hear the
:12:18. > :12:25.Association issuing a warning like that? The hardest saying that we
:12:26. > :12:30.have from Jesus, one of the most revolutionary sayings, is Love your
:12:31. > :12:36.enemies. It's very easy for me sitting here and saying that you
:12:37. > :12:42.need to love your enemies when people are in conflicts like war. I
:12:43. > :12:47.have been in those situations. It is a command of Christ, not an option,
:12:48. > :12:56.he doesn't say, if it's possible. All over Nigeria there are areas
:12:57. > :13:01.where Christians and Muslims live together very contentedly and
:13:02. > :13:07.happily within families, towns and all kinds of communities. In the
:13:08. > :13:14.north-east of Nigeria, there is a significant insurgency. It rests on
:13:15. > :13:20.three stone 's. 85% youth unemployment. Big ethnic
:13:21. > :13:25.differences. The fighting in the north-east has killed more Muslim
:13:26. > :13:29.than Christians. Let me be clear, Christians are being persecuted and
:13:30. > :13:35.we need to be very robust about that, we need to find good
:13:36. > :13:45.disagreement, not our disagreement. 80 million Anglicans -- 18 million
:13:46. > :13:52.Anglicans their. The issue of gay priest and same-sex marriages, the
:13:53. > :13:57.Church in Nigeria, Kenya have said that we aren't happy about what has
:13:58. > :14:01.happened on this matter ever since the Church of Canada allowed
:14:02. > :14:10.same-sex marriage in 2002 and the Church of England in the United
:14:11. > :14:15.States in 2003. There's been the traditionalist wing of the Anglican
:14:16. > :14:21.Church and the liberal wing, what are you doing to reconcile these two
:14:22. > :14:27.wings? News headlines, people in a different countries from even more
:14:28. > :14:31.different cultures and traditions don't always agree with each other.
:14:32. > :14:38.It's not startling that we disagree with each other sometimes. I am
:14:39. > :14:45.trying to not get everyone to agree. But to try to transform bad
:14:46. > :14:58.disagreement to good disagreement. There are headlines and the can add
:14:59. > :15:02.other countries to the list. In Uganda, they feel very strongly
:15:03. > :15:10.about this. There are countries like this were in the church, struggling
:15:11. > :15:14.with the issue, we are not of one mind over it. It will take time.
:15:15. > :15:21.What am I doing? I am trying to make sure that people meet and listen to
:15:22. > :15:30.each other, understand each other properly. And learn afresh to love
:15:31. > :15:38.one another as Christ, and -- commended us. Can you really have
:15:39. > :15:44.this dialogue with an in mind when the example you are quoted in The
:15:45. > :15:49.Daily Telegraph newspaper last year saying, we have seen changes in the
:15:50. > :15:53.idea of sexuality and sexual behaviour. The vast majority of
:15:54. > :15:59.people under 35 think we are plain wrong and wicked and equate it to
:16:00. > :16:06.racism and other forms of growth and addresses in justice. -- growth and
:16:07. > :16:14.atrocious. This could be described as a more western and liberal
:16:15. > :16:20.interpretation. Was commenting on the change in culture and not on my
:16:21. > :16:27.position. The changing culture is undeniable. It is a simple fact. But
:16:28. > :16:33.not if you are in Africa. I was talking in the context of the
:16:34. > :16:38.same-sex marriage act and how that changed. The House of Lords in this
:16:39. > :16:44.debate in the second reading, I said I disagreed with the act. I spoke
:16:45. > :16:49.against it very clearly. We were overwhelmingly defeated. The
:16:50. > :16:54.realities of a change in Western culture are beyond any debate at
:16:55. > :16:59.all. A church that fails to acknowledge the court around it is
:17:00. > :17:03.changing, doesn't mean it changes what it does but it says it is
:17:04. > :17:09.wilfully blind to the change around it. It is being foolish. That is
:17:10. > :17:15.what is putting you or the Church in West at odds with the Church in
:17:16. > :17:19.Africa. They are accused the Church in Canada, England, the US producing
:17:20. > :17:25.revisionist forms of the Christian faith that are not recognisable to
:17:26. > :17:32.the majority of Anglicans worldwide. That is the leaders in Nigeria and
:17:33. > :17:40.Kenya said in October 2012. Also said that in November 2013 in
:17:41. > :17:47.Nairobi. It is not news that we have disagreement. Nor is it something
:17:48. > :17:54.that worries me. Where you stand when it comes to these gay priests
:17:55. > :18:00.and same-sex marriage? My personal view has been stated clearly in the
:18:01. > :18:04.House of Lords. I do not support the idea of same-sex marriage and I
:18:05. > :18:12.uphold the teachings of the Church of England which has not changed to
:18:13. > :18:17.any degree at all that marriage is a lifelong union of one man and one
:18:18. > :18:25.woman. Do you think this issue can pay the charge apart? Yes. There has
:18:26. > :18:27.never been a moment where the Church has not had a disagreement. It was
:18:28. > :18:32.called to deal with massive disagreements within the church.
:18:33. > :18:38.Where there are differences, at the moment, the Church of England's view
:18:39. > :18:47.on same-sex marriage is clear. My view is clear. In this country, we
:18:48. > :18:52.also need to be very careful about our profound opposition to
:18:53. > :18:59.homophobic behaviour. We are working on and, if I'm honest, struggling
:19:00. > :19:05.with the issue of how we recognise the love that exists between people
:19:06. > :19:11.who have a same-sex orientation and who are committed to each other and
:19:12. > :19:14.how that is recognised. The Anglican communion has set clear rules about
:19:15. > :19:20.that. It is a disagreement will continue for some time. My own view
:19:21. > :19:25.on same-sex marriage is one thing. My own view on same-sex unions, I
:19:26. > :19:31.have recognised. The immense quality and profound love and commitment of
:19:32. > :19:38.many same-sex unions, I do not think that marriage is the appropriate
:19:39. > :19:44.way. The partnerships for gay priests is fine. Is permitted by the
:19:45. > :19:51.Church of England for same-sex couples. Both priests and others. De
:19:52. > :20:02.priests remain celibate? That if the rule of the church. It is difficult
:20:03. > :20:14.to enforce. With women bishops, when might we see the first ones? There
:20:15. > :20:18.are 27 worldwide. We are well down the track with the Anglican
:20:19. > :20:24.communion. July this year? No. There are four -- to make further steps in
:20:25. > :20:32.the process we have with Parliament. One in February and July
:20:33. > :20:38.2014. If the measure passes, if there is an agreement, it is a very
:20:39. > :20:43.complicated thing that people feel deeply about it. If the measure
:20:44. > :20:49.passes, the opportunity by the time it has gone through Parliament and
:20:50. > :21:01.all the rest, I would have thought the chance would be in early 2015. I
:21:02. > :21:08.am strongly committed. You have also been outspoken on the issue of
:21:09. > :21:14.inequality and poverty. Our user not worried about making the church to
:21:15. > :21:21.political? It seems you are going into the realm of policy, political
:21:22. > :21:27.policy. It is an old chestnut. Back in the mid 1990s when we published
:21:28. > :21:32.face in the city, somebody accused my predecessor of being a Marxist.
:21:33. > :21:38.Somebody recently accused the Pope of being a Marxist. It seems rather
:21:39. > :21:46.unlikely. You have to speak about policy. But not party political. He
:21:47. > :21:52.spoke on rising energy bills at the same time the opposition Labour
:21:53. > :21:57.Party was as well. We have more people on the ground in more places
:21:58. > :22:02.in worshipping communities than anyone else in the country.
:22:03. > :22:09.Professional people living in their parishes across 9000 places in the
:22:10. > :22:16.country often in the areas of the most, of course we are aware of the
:22:17. > :22:21.pressures on the poor. When I read my bible, I find Jesus commands me
:22:22. > :22:27.to be very outspoken about that. So, while the benefit cuts. This is for
:22:28. > :22:34.disadvantaged mothers and children. But the Government accessible has to
:22:35. > :22:42.be fair for those who need it and pay for it. The church has been
:22:43. > :22:52.talking about all the benefits and reforms for the full some time. Iain
:22:53. > :22:57.Duncan Smith... One of the most educated and thoughtful people in
:22:58. > :23:06.this area. Sometimes, the application of policy is complex in
:23:07. > :23:13.its impact on individuals. That needs to be recognised. I am very
:23:14. > :23:18.careful about saying the reforms are wrong. It is right for those who
:23:19. > :23:22.contribute. The Bank of England is encouraging that reforms in
:23:23. > :23:28.encouraging people to go back to work. Incentives to work are hugely
:23:29. > :23:36.important. Training for work is important. There is a lot of debate
:23:37. > :23:43.about bankers bonuses. RBS is involved. The government has not
:23:44. > :23:51.said it will prevent bonuses being given out in the form of shares. You
:23:52. > :23:59.think they should be? Renumeration was clear. It has been an issue. It
:24:00. > :24:07.has to be kept at reasonable and measurable and objectively or fought
:24:08. > :24:24.three levels. That is what we said. -- well-thought through. And you
:24:25. > :24:38.will continue to speak out? Yes. Thank you for joining us.
:24:39. > :24:45.The weather was really all over the place during the course of the
:24:46. > :24:46.weekend. We pretty much had