:00:00. > :00:00.quell the protests. On Tuesday, the prime Minister resigned. Now it is
:00:00. > :00:17.time for a HARDtalk. Welcome to a very special edition of
:00:18. > :00:23.HARDtalk from India, being recorded in front of an audience here in
:00:24. > :00:28.Delhi. My guest is one of the country 's most intriguing young
:00:29. > :00:37.politicians. Omar Abdullah is Chief Minister of the long disputed state
:00:38. > :00:42.of Jammu and Kashmir. Once described as the most dangerous place on
:00:43. > :00:44.earth. What are the prospects for peace on the frontline between India
:00:45. > :00:58.and Pakistan? Chief Minister, is a great pleasure
:00:59. > :01:03.to have you HARDtalk. I want to start with a question, your estate
:01:04. > :01:12.is Jammu and Kashmir. Would it be fair to suggest that it is very far
:01:13. > :01:16.from being a normal Indian states? I wouldn't use the word very far. It
:01:17. > :01:20.is further from being a normal Indian state than any of us would
:01:21. > :01:31.like. There's a lot closer to being normal than it has been in the last
:01:32. > :01:34.two and a half decades. The basic fact is that a very substantial
:01:35. > :01:41.proportion of the people that you represent do not accept, recognise,
:01:42. > :01:48.the legitimacy of Indian rule. How do you quantify very substantial? I
:01:49. > :01:57.haven't seen any numbers to indicate what you are suggesting. Yes there
:01:58. > :02:02.are sections of Jammu and Kashmir that don't accept being part of
:02:03. > :02:13.India. They haven't accepted since 1947. What percentage would you put?
:02:14. > :02:18.It changes. It depends on the circumstances on the ground. When
:02:19. > :02:25.things are tense but you have a situation where there has been an
:02:26. > :02:32.incident of human rights, the number of people who accept they are
:02:33. > :02:41.separatists by nature increases. Let me ask you, you accept the notion
:02:42. > :02:49.that Jammu and Kashmir is permanently an integrated part?
:02:50. > :02:56.Absolutely. I have no doubt. I've never had any doubt. Jammu and
:02:57. > :02:59.Kashmir is a part of India. It is a different matter that I have
:03:00. > :03:04.complaints. They have every right to complain because they believe in the
:03:05. > :03:13.notion of Jammu and Kashmir being a part of India. The amount of power
:03:14. > :03:20.they receded to the centre, that is something open discussion. Here is
:03:21. > :03:29.another way in which they seem abnormal. In the history of the
:03:30. > :03:34.State since the independence war and the creation of Jammu and Kashmir,
:03:35. > :03:39.it has been dominated by one family. Your family. Your
:03:40. > :03:43.grandfather was Prime Minister, your father was chief minister several
:03:44. > :03:49.times, you are now Chief Minister. In a thriving, open democracy it
:03:50. > :03:55.seems unlikely that one family would provide all of the leaders. The
:03:56. > :04:08.suggesting India hasn't had a thriving democracy? We have had a
:04:09. > :04:12.thriving democracy since 1947. If you had the researchers quantify the
:04:13. > :04:18.number of years that my grandfather, father, and myself have had the
:04:19. > :04:24.chair, it is a lot less than the other people put together as well.
:04:25. > :04:32.The other way in which people question the notion that Jammu and
:04:33. > :04:38.Kashmir can be regarded as a normal state is the military presence. How
:04:39. > :04:45.many Indian security personnel are on your soil? I wouldn't be able to
:04:46. > :04:49.share an accurate number with you. One because they wouldn't have the
:04:50. > :04:54.exact number, two is that even if I did, I don't think it would be
:04:55. > :05:02.prudent from a security point of view. The 600,000, 700,000 number
:05:03. > :05:09.gets thrown around and is incorrect. It would mean the lion share of the
:05:10. > :05:14.Indian Army is in Jammu and Kashmir. That ignores the other frontiers
:05:15. > :05:19.with Pakistani and China. A you saying that you genuinely don't know
:05:20. > :05:27.how many Indian security forces are on your soil? It is not a constant
:05:28. > :05:33.number. Ads and flows according to the situation. It is a product of
:05:34. > :05:37.the tensions on the border whether it be with China or Pakistan. It is
:05:38. > :05:45.also a product of the internal security. It still seems highly
:05:46. > :05:49.militarised society. You travel everywhere with a high level of
:05:50. > :05:55.personal security. You live in a heavily fortified compound. It seems
:05:56. > :05:59.the security forces believe there is an active and real threat to your
:06:00. > :06:07.personal safety. Is that true? It's true. I began this interview by
:06:08. > :06:19.telling you it wasn't as normal as other residents. Is it also true
:06:20. > :06:22.that you are encouraged a system of village elders to bring democracy
:06:23. > :06:29.and representation down to the very local level, and we have seen last
:06:30. > :06:35.few years many of those village elders being intimidated and
:06:36. > :06:40.threatened. A few have been killed. There have been some of the local
:06:41. > :06:43.government representatives who have been targeted by militants. As a
:06:44. > :06:49.percentage of the number of people they were elected, it is still not
:06:50. > :06:57.as large as the question would suggest. The context in train to
:06:58. > :07:04.establish is why you seem to believe it is acceptable for the military,
:07:05. > :07:10.the Indian army, to have special legal protection. I am one of the
:07:11. > :07:15.people who don't feel it is acceptable. I believe that while the
:07:16. > :07:26.Indian army requires legal cover to operate internally, because there
:07:27. > :07:31.been used for internal security. It needs legal sanction to do that. I
:07:32. > :07:39.believe there is a distance to be drawn between legal sanction and the
:07:40. > :07:46.sort of carte blanche offered. If you are saying you oppose the armed
:07:47. > :07:51.forces in your territory, DC you agree with Amnesty International
:07:52. > :07:56.which says that law has been used to facilitate serial systematic and
:07:57. > :08:00.grave human rights abuses including disappearances, rape, torture? The
:08:01. > :08:06.scrums are gone unpunished because of that law? I won't get into an
:08:07. > :08:11.argument with what Amnesty International has hasn't said. I'm
:08:12. > :08:17.willing to accept that in the course of the 25 years in Jammu and Kashmir
:08:18. > :08:21.there have been human rights violations. I won't use the word
:08:22. > :08:25.systematic as a don't think there have been systematic violations. I
:08:26. > :08:30.will concede that have been violations, but it will be
:08:31. > :08:41.impossible for them to happen. The wet systematic, I would disagree
:08:42. > :08:45.with. The point for you is that you might know more about the abuses if
:08:46. > :08:50.you pursue job promise to deliver a truth and reconciliation commission.
:08:51. > :08:59.Your party committed itself for a truth and reconciliation... No we
:09:00. > :09:03.didn't. I actually floated the idea of the truth and reconciliation
:09:04. > :09:10.committee Renault is in the opposition. He didn't mean its? It
:09:11. > :09:18.wasn't part of the manifesto, because who am I to promise that?
:09:19. > :09:22.You are the chief minister. When it is setup, it has to come from the
:09:23. > :09:26.governments of India and Pakistan as a confidence building measure for
:09:27. > :09:29.people of Jammu and Kashmir. The answers are required from both
:09:30. > :09:34.sides. The problem is that we often only when to hold the Indian side
:09:35. > :09:40.accountable. We don't want to ask questions of the other side. I am
:09:41. > :09:46.all for truth and reconciliation commission. Would it not give India
:09:47. > :09:51.the moral high ground if you were serious about punishing those
:09:52. > :09:56.including in the armed forces who committed grievous abuses on the
:09:57. > :10:00.Indian side of control? It's not as though the punishment isn't being
:10:01. > :10:06.handed out. A few weeks ago the army has given sanction for court martial
:10:07. > :10:09.in the incident that happened in 2010 in a remote area of Kashmir
:10:10. > :10:14.where we believe innocent people were killed by the army. It's not a
:10:15. > :10:20.case that has been swept under the carpet or where the armed forces
:10:21. > :10:31.have allowed just as not to biggest charged. -- discharged. We aren't
:10:32. > :10:38.ignoring the problem. You said that in the end it isn't up to you, it is
:10:39. > :10:45.up to the government in Delhi. Isn't the truth that, and they don't want
:10:46. > :10:54.to belittle this, are in and extra merry difficult position because the
:10:55. > :11:00.matters that make up the future of your state and not in your hands?
:11:01. > :11:08.Defence of the realm is central responsibility. You got power after
:11:09. > :11:12.President 's rule where the centre ran affairs in Kashmir. We know
:11:13. > :11:17.through the course of your history that every time there is trouble,
:11:18. > :11:22.disturbances, protests on the streets, the Central government has
:11:23. > :11:27.the ability to impose President 's central role. It is going to happen
:11:28. > :11:35.every time the centre wants it to happen. The Indian Constitution
:11:36. > :11:43.allows the Centre to impose President 's rule from Delhi if the
:11:44. > :11:46.situation warrants it. Let me, for the second the audience and those
:11:47. > :11:53.who don't remember the recent history of Jammu and Kashmir,
:11:54. > :11:58.Central rule was not imposed in 2010... Sorry, 2008, because of
:11:59. > :12:03.disturbances. It was because the coalition government fell apart. It
:12:04. > :12:09.was a political disagreement that has been imposed, not the internal
:12:10. > :12:13.security environment. We have teased out some of the challenges he faced
:12:14. > :12:16.as chief minister on the security front. Let's take an overview of
:12:17. > :12:21.security. I talked about Bill Clinton in 2000 saying that it was
:12:22. > :12:27.the most dangerous place in the world. Right now, there's your
:12:28. > :12:35.territory feel like one of the most dangerous places in the world to
:12:36. > :12:38.you? Most certainly not. Not from an internal perspective or even an
:12:39. > :12:46.external perspective. What about when you hear the Al Qaeda
:12:47. > :12:55.leadership saying he wants to see a new Jihad in Kashmir. Even security
:12:56. > :13:01.talk about danger after US combat forces left Afghanistan in 2014, the
:13:02. > :13:06.danger of militants moving into Kashmir. I don't see that happening
:13:07. > :13:11.from all the intelligence have available to me. From the reports I
:13:12. > :13:15.have read, I understand we need to be cautious about what could happen
:13:16. > :13:21.as a result of US forces leaving Afghanistan, don't see the sort of
:13:22. > :13:26.predictions they were made coming true. It would mean any gains we
:13:27. > :13:30.have made and Jammu and Kashmir had been due to external factors. I
:13:31. > :13:36.believe most of the progress has been largely because of internal
:13:37. > :13:41.affairs. I read lots of statements from military sources in India still
:13:42. > :13:47.talking up the security threat faced in Kashmir. A single exaggerate the
:13:48. > :13:57.security threat in Kashmir? In part, yes. Why would they do that? It's a
:13:58. > :14:02.long story. The short version is that this argument about 2014 is
:14:03. > :14:14.largely been used so the armed forces remain as it is. Which
:14:15. > :14:20.suggest to me that you have doubts about the security forces that you
:14:21. > :14:24.have to work with. I have no doubt about the security forces. I believe
:14:25. > :14:29.there have been a handful of aberrations. But by and large, they
:14:30. > :14:33.have done a good job under difficult circumstances. There are
:14:34. > :14:43.disagreements that we have from time to time. One of them is over the
:14:44. > :14:46.special powers act. Is Pakistan still offering important,
:14:47. > :14:49.significant support and encouragement to militants on their
:14:50. > :14:54.side of the border and getting them to go across the lines of control
:14:55. > :15:03.into your territory to commit acts of violence? Yes. What is is a
:15:04. > :15:08.evident -- what is your evidence I am not carrying the folders with me
:15:09. > :15:11.but I could share with you intelligence reports about the
:15:12. > :15:17.presence of the camps and the lines of control. The actual footage from
:15:18. > :15:21.our vehicles, showing these people being facilitated across the border
:15:22. > :15:29.and transcripts of conversations with their handlers sitting in
:15:30. > :15:35.Pakistan. There is no shortage of evidence available. When Indian
:15:36. > :15:41.military sources are muted, the building and construction of a
:15:42. > :15:45.wall, we are talking about a wall that goes far beyond anything seen
:15:46. > :15:51.in the world, ten metres high and fortified with bunkers. Is that
:15:52. > :16:00.something you want to see? That will is not intended for an anti-
:16:01. > :16:07.militancy. What is it for? Is in the event of a. It is not for... Do you
:16:08. > :16:13.want to see it occurs some nipple in Kashmir has said it will turn
:16:14. > :16:21.Kashmir into a prison. It is being built in my state. It is not being
:16:22. > :16:27.built in Kashmir. Do you want to see in any of your territory 's? I do
:16:28. > :16:32.not want to see any part of my state with barbed wire. That is not the
:16:33. > :16:38.reality I live in. Jammu and Kashmir has been invaded more than twice I
:16:39. > :16:43.Pakistan and China. I cannot wish my history away. It Pakistan were to
:16:44. > :16:50.stand up and say they have no ulterior motive as fires Kashmir is
:16:51. > :16:54.can is earned an alert us live and let live. I will be the first person
:16:55. > :17:02.to stand up and say we do not need a wall. It is interesting you say
:17:03. > :17:10.that. Pakistan's position is somewhat Compper catered but if we
:17:11. > :17:16.go back to 2005, Musharraf acknowledged that Pakistan will not
:17:17. > :17:20.ever see Kashmir integrated into their territory. He talked about the
:17:21. > :17:23.militarisation, a greater degree of autonomy but very much implicit in
:17:24. > :17:29.everything he said was that in the long run, Pakistan will accept that
:17:30. > :17:35.Jammu and Kashmir is not their territory and will remain Indian
:17:36. > :17:40.territory. Surely, Pakistan has already been... Made a significant
:17:41. > :17:44.part way down that road. I think we lost eight great opportunity with
:17:45. > :17:50.was a rough. If the current government in Pakistan will accept
:17:51. > :17:57.what he had laid out as his 4-point programme, we would be much closer.
:17:58. > :18:05.He is talking trade, he is talking bilateral relations. Yes but not one
:18:06. > :18:08.word about Kashmir that is different from the previous position. You are
:18:09. > :18:14.not prepared to accept that Pakistan has a good faith interest in
:18:15. > :18:22.negotiating a permanent settlement of the Kashmir State? I have seen no
:18:23. > :18:31.evidence. Do you talk to Pakistan yourself? No. We do not have very
:18:32. > :18:39.good neighbourly relations. (LAUGHTER)
:18:40. > :18:43.There are some people in Pakistan would like nothing more than to see
:18:44. > :18:48.the end of me. That does not make for good relations. With the
:18:49. > :18:52.greatest of respect it seems that the real threats that you face, day
:18:53. > :18:57.to day is from actual elements from your own people. There are people
:18:58. > :19:06.inside Jammu and Kashmir who regard you as a collaborator. Of course
:19:07. > :19:12.they are. With whose support though? Why do they need anyone's support?
:19:13. > :19:16.ACU as a traitor. As much as they would like guns to grow on trees in
:19:17. > :19:22.Kashmir, they do not. We have no arms factories. All the weapons in
:19:23. > :19:25.Kashmir to keep this militancy alive come from across the light of
:19:26. > :19:33.control. The instructions come from there. Let's also recognise the fact
:19:34. > :19:36.that today, the majority of militants operating in Jammu and
:19:37. > :19:41.Kashmir are not Kashmiri. There was a time in the early 90s when a time
:19:42. > :19:46.in the early 90s. It might surprise you to know that at last count, more
:19:47. > :19:50.than 60 different nationalities have either been caught or killed as a
:19:51. > :20:00.result of the militants. Bosnians, Chechnya and is, Sudanese. It is not
:20:01. > :20:05.as though that this image you are trying to present that Kashmiris are
:20:06. > :20:11.out to get me. It is not true. There are a handful of people. As we talk
:20:12. > :20:20.I sense you're very strong commitment. Your commitment to being
:20:21. > :20:26.a part of India. I do sense a conflict within you. There have been
:20:27. > :20:33.moments when your confidence in that future seemed to sleep. I think it
:20:34. > :20:39.came in March of last year when there was a great deal of unrest
:20:40. > :20:44.after the execution of a young man who was convicted of involvement in
:20:45. > :20:49.the violent attack on the Indian parliament in 2001. He was executed
:20:50. > :20:53.last year and many people in your state were unhappy. There were riots
:20:54. > :20:58.and and people were killed on the streets. You are reported to have
:20:59. > :21:06.said this at the funeral of one young man who was killed in street
:21:07. > :21:09.protest. You said: is this why we have been holding the flight of this
:21:10. > :21:18.country so that again and again I have to answer for every bullet?
:21:19. > :21:21.Yes. That does not mean I'm advocating a solution outside the
:21:22. > :21:28.Constitution. I want accountability from the security forces. I want to
:21:29. > :21:32.bring it back to politics. It is election season in India. In the
:21:33. > :21:37.next four months, the nations voters will go to the polls. A very strong
:21:38. > :21:45.possibility that the next leader of India will be the leader of the BJP.
:21:46. > :21:47.He has very strong opinions on Kashmir. He says that full
:21:48. > :21:54.integration has to be pushed forward. The idea of special stages
:21:55. > :21:57.where Indians not from the state are not allowed to buy land in Kashmir
:21:58. > :22:02.has to be done away with. What is your view? The problem is that when
:22:03. > :22:07.he made the statement and said that he was ready for a discussion on
:22:08. > :22:12.Article 370 I said I am also ready for discussion. Name the time and
:22:13. > :22:17.place and we will discuss it. He could not reply himself and got one
:22:18. > :22:23.of his minions to reply who said he was too busy. And to make it worse,
:22:24. > :22:29.he is also far too important to discuss it with someone like you. If
:22:30. > :22:38.that is the theory is nurse -- is that if the seriousness that he
:22:39. > :22:48.views it with. He is the next Prime Minister of India. It does not
:22:49. > :22:52.matter. Constitutionally, he cannot revoke Article 370 without calling
:22:53. > :22:58.into question accession of Jammu and Kashmir to India. As Prime Minister,
:22:59. > :23:04.if you want to rewrite that then he is welcome. But I don't think it
:23:05. > :23:12.would be so foolhardy. I was struck by word that came from the mouth of
:23:13. > :23:18.your own uncle. When he said that Kashmiris feel closer to Pakistan.
:23:19. > :23:26.He said that India is the enemy. He is your own uncle. Did you...
:23:27. > :23:31.Somebody who I have public disagreements with. Did you
:23:32. > :23:43.recognise the feelings, the basic feelings he was talking about?
:23:44. > :23:45.Recognise the way? In yourself. No. In my state, I told you at the
:23:46. > :23:50.beginning that there are people that believe in what he said. He believes
:23:51. > :23:56.in what he's saying, I am not sure about that. Is for him to answer. If
:23:57. > :23:59.he ever appears on HARDtalk. I would be lying if I told you that there
:24:00. > :24:07.aren't people in Jammu and Kashmir who see the future outside the
:24:08. > :24:14.Indian system. How many of them I do not think it is possible to
:24:15. > :24:33.quantify. We have to and they are. Thank you for being on HARDtalk.
:24:34. > :24:39.We continue with a very unsettled look to the weather at the moment
:24:40. > :24:43.with some heavy showers still continuing through today. It will
:24:44. > :24:45.also feel increasingly cold as we start to pick up a bit more of an
:24:46. > :24:46.easterly